A UK perspective on the current shootings and threat to ban automatic weapons in US

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posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 11:34 AM
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Hi,
I'm from the UK, Scotland to be precise, and I'm looking on in disbelief and horror at the unfolding events in the USA, regarding mass shootings / demonising of those with military interests or experience / and moves towards the banning of ownership of certain types of weapons.

I'll begin by saying that the UK does not have the same type of gun culture that the USA does.
There are far fewer firearms in the hands of members of the public in the UK, and citizens of the UK do feel safer for that. There is a general feeling that less firearms means less death and serious injury for all, and I think that the stats on gun-related deaths back that up fairly convincingly.

I'll continue by saying that there are more assaults and violent conduct recorded in the UK, when compared to the USA. That's partly because of the way the UK detects and logs crime stats (they're very good at detecting and charging perpetrators of violence) but also, I believe, partly because potential criminals know that their victims are VERY unlikely to have any serious defensive weaponry on them.

They are two very different systems, two different cultures, and it's sometimes hard for one to understand the other.

I am not in any way "pro-gun". I do not want guns on the streets of the UK. I do not want to have to face the prospect of armed burglars or armed street-robbers confronting me and my family. I am quite happy that I am capable of defending myself and my home/family without the need for firearms, because I know that any potential burglar/robber is very unlikely to be armed. I don't hunt, and I don't need a weapon for self defence.

So, it's hard for me to understand and sympathise with the gun-owners of the USA, since my own experience is of a very different culture.
But what I will say, is that many people in the UK, and quite possibly some in the US as well, are missing the point entirely when it comes to debating the matter of gun control.

The current mass-shooting events (whether real lone-wolf events or staged false flags) have brought the prospect of gun bans (especially for auto/semi-auto weapons) and a threat to the 2nd amendment right to bear arms.

Much of the media talk about restricting access to weapons, seems to float the question: "why would anyone need automatic weapons for hunting or self defence anyway?" and seems to instil the notion that weapons should be used for those purposes, and those purposes only.

But the right to bear arms had NOTHING at all to do with hunting or self defence.
It was put in place so that the citizens of the USA would NEVER again have to suffer under a tyrannical regime of government like that imposed by the British. It was included in the constitution to PROTECT the US population FROM government.

Well, guess who is threatening to impose legislation to restrict automatic weapons?

And what happens after automatics are banned?? A terrible mass shooting where a rifle is used??? BAN Rifles!!! Then a handgun incident or two??? Where do you draw the line?

The people of the USA need to remember WHY the right to bear arms exists, and NOT be side-tracked by misleading talk of lone-wolf killers, nut-jobs, self-defence and hunting requirements.
They need to TELL their government that it has NO RIGHT to change a constitutional right to bear arms, which was brought into force to protect them FROM tyrannical government in the first place.

As I said, I am NOT pro-gun, but I am pro-rights, and although I do not want guns on the streets of the UK (or USA for that matter) I understand and will fight for, the rights of US citizens to bear arms for the correct purpose.

peace,
GTD




posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 11:40 AM
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awesome insight on your end from the other side of the pond...........

However prepare to be flamed by your fellow countrymen.........

We keep trying to tell the people here these things but they dont want to listen..........They have been so heavily indoctrinated by the anti gun culture, that they believe anyone with a gun is a psychopath and actually beleive they are safer being unarmed.......

They actually BELIEVE that criminals wont have the guns..........despite the numbers, and despite thefact that the worst gun crimes happen in areas with the hardest anti gun laws.........

I dont know if this mentality can be turned around...........

These same people speak out against corrupt gov, about illegal wars, about gov officials and police committing horrible crimes against the civilian populace, but then want the gov to be the only ones to have the weapons.......

this logic baffles me
edit on 10-1-2013 by ManBehindTheMask because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 11:46 AM
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I'm from Scotland too but I don't agree with any of that.

The way we log crimes doesn't matter, the simple fact is that the USA has mass shooting every month and we don't, yes we have violent crime but this includes muggins and bar fights etc.

USA says criminals will always have guns even if they are banned, yes thats true the criminals over here have guns too but the point is its NOT the criminals shooting high school student its other high school kids.

The guns should be banned let the criminals have their guns for whatever reason they use them I don't care I just don't want to wake in the morning to see little children faces all over the news because some nut job has went on a rampage, it really is just common sense...



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 11:50 AM
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reply to post by roughycannon
 





USA says criminals will always have guns even if they are banned, yes thats true the criminals over here have guns too but the point is its NOT the criminals shooting high school student its other high school kids.


....so another school student killing his fellow classmates isnt a criminal?

.........ok.......logic fail..........




The guns should be banned let the criminals have their guns for whatever reason they use them I don't care I just don't want to wake in the morning to see little children faces all over the news because some nut job has went on a rampage, it really is just common sense...


So let the criminals have them its ok you dont want to wake up and see kids faces on the news because a nutjob lost it and shot them...........

because this guy isnt a criminal? Because normal armed people just go out and do this right?

Again........logic fail........
edit on 10-1-2013 by ManBehindTheMask because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 11:54 AM
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reply to post by Gordi The Drummer
 


I'm interested to know if any US citizens were telling the UK citizens what they should do when their guns were being taken away.
Do you recall the US or any other countries suggested to the UK residents that they'd prefer it if they were unarmed?
edit on 10-1-2013 by Afterthought because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 11:55 AM
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reply to post by ManBehindTheMask
 


Don't try and play dumb you know what I mean, when people say criminals will always get the guns even if they are banned they mean drug dealers etc.

The high school kids who commit these crimes only become criminals after the events not before, like here in the UK it would very difficult for a high school kid to get his hands on a gun, never mind an assault rifle...



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 11:56 AM
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Very intelligent and well thought out post.


I get so upset when I listen to Piers Morgan,Obama, and others talk about the 2nd amendment and how its there to protect the rights of Hunters/Sportsman...



A question for you


If multiple people broke into your house...Lets say 3 of em. Do you believe that you would be able to defend yourself againt all 3? If 3 people broke into my place and all I had was a bat I think my chance of defending myself successfully against all 3 is a lot more slim than if I bust out an AR-15 or Shotgun.

Im no pushover either and I'd give them all I got. But you gotta admit that defending your castle becomes a lot harder with less tools



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 11:57 AM
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I'm sure if the founders had seen what would of happened they of probably added a "but no guns for those who are nuttier than squirrel poo" as thats the real problem its not guns its the wrong people getting their hands on the guns and until they can work out some sort of nutter filter to gun ownership there will be people going out and wiping out large quantities of people and nothing they do/try and ban like large cap clips etc will really change the fact that when person x flips and if they have to carry 5 clips or 500 clips to do what they want it'll happen

So really gun control should be people looking out for people and stopping them from doing stupid stuff before it causes stupid numbers of dead people



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by Afterthought
reply to post by Gordi The Drummer
 


I'm interested to know if any US citizens were telling the UK citizens what they should do when their guns were being taken away.
Do you recall the US or any other countries suggested to the UK residents that they'd prefer it if they were unarmed?
edit on 10-1-2013 by Afterthought because: (no reason given)


The internet wasn't around at that time like it is today, are you telling me if this was now there wouldn't be any Americans with a point of view about the UK losing its guns? come on now stop being silly...



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by Gordi The Drummer


And what happens after automatics are banned?? A terrible mass shooting where a rifle is used??? BAN Rifles!!! Then a handgun incident or two??? Where do you draw the line?

GTD


I think this is the most important part. Government seems to want to eliminate risk in all forms, telling us what to eat, drink and do. Now, whether this is by design or not we eventually become so risk averse that we do whatever we are told cause we are too scared to do differently.

We give up any responsibility and give it to the government or some other entity that 'knows better'.

I am from the UK and I agree that I would hate to see guns on our streets but we are a nanny state, we have been for years and it gets worse and worse.

People need to stand up to their governments and say I can be responsible for myself, but to do that people must be willing to be responsible for others too...something else people are too scared to do cause we have been conditioned to believe that we should just 'let the authorities handle it'.

I guess what I'm trying to say is...I totally agree OP.
edit on 10-1-2013 by Jykan because: learning to use qotes



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 11:59 AM
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reply to post by roughycannon
 



The way we log crimes doesn't matter, the simple fact is that the USA has mass shooting every month and we don't, yes we have violent crime but this includes muggins and bar fights etc.


Actually, we do NOT have mass shootings every month, despite the myth being pushed by media for political agendas.

My father-in-law was Scottish and in the process of getting his perm. immigration status when he passed away recently. He was more like the OP by the time he'd been here for a couple years. He was more like your approach when he first arrived. The difference over time of LIVING what he only THOUGHT he knew anything about before was a sight to see for the attitude changing over time.

I appreciate the OP's sentiments, personally. There are two sides to this whole debate and nothing is as simple as either side would LIKE it to appear. Those outside the nation? Well... Opinions are interesting when kept in perspective as nothing but pure personal opinion.



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 12:05 PM
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Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by roughycannon
 



The way we log crimes doesn't matter, the simple fact is that the USA has mass shooting every month and we don't, yes we have violent crime but this includes muggins and bar fights etc.


Actually, we do NOT have mass shootings every month, despite the myth being pushed by media for political agendas.

My father-in-law was Scottish and in the process of getting his perm. immigration status when he passed away recently. He was more like the OP by the time he'd been here for a couple years. He was more like your approach when he first arrived. The difference over time of LIVING what he only THOUGHT he knew anything about before was a sight to see for the attitude changing over time.

I appreciate the OP's sentiments, personally. There are two sides to this whole debate and nothing is as simple as either side would LIKE it to appear. Those outside the nation? Well... Opinions are interesting when kept in perspective as nothing but pure personal opinion.


Im sorry but we have ONE high school shooting:

en.wikipedia.org... back in 1996

and this:

boingboing.net...

Just happened 20 minutes ago
edit on 10-1-2013 by roughycannon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 12:09 PM
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Originally posted by ruderalis1
Very intelligent and well thought out post.


I get so upset when I listen to Piers Morgan,Obama, and others talk about the 2nd amendment and how its there to protect the rights of Hunters/Sportsman...



A question for you


If multiple people broke into your house...Lets say 3 of em. Do you believe that you would be able to defend yourself againt all 3? If 3 people broke into my place and all I had was a bat I think my chance of defending myself successfully against all 3 is a lot more slim than if I bust out an AR-15 or Shotgun.

Im no pushover either and I'd give them all I got. But you gotta admit that defending your castle becomes a lot harder with less tools


Baseball bat? Crowbar? Or what about the ability to own a Crossbow in the UK?



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 12:09 PM
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I'm with you OP, I've been trying to say the same thing in the one or two threads I posted on. Just the thought of rights being removed sends shivers down my spine, it would have a domino effect from top to bottom and from the West to 'the rest'..



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 12:11 PM
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If we were to have gun laws like America, we would also have to expect all the bad things that come with it, like school massacres, more gangland deaths and more accidental deaths. I'm not sure the British public would accept such downsides. Maybe I'm wrong. Although I have to say there's no shortage of people with guns where I live in the countryside. The pheasant season has just finished and at times it sounds like a military exercise.



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 12:12 PM
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Originally posted by roughycannon
reply to post by ManBehindTheMask
 


Don't try and play dumb you know what I mean, when people say criminals will always get the guns even if they are banned they mean drug dealers etc.

The high school kids who commit these crimes only become criminals after the events not before, like here in the UK it would very difficult for a high school kid to get his hands on a gun, never mind an assault rifle...


Im not trying to play dumb.........its completely stupid to try and draw a dif between the people shooting in school and other people murdering elsewhere......

MURDERERS ARE MURDERERS lol........they are criminal........

LoL you could use that same logic with anything else..........the serial killer isnt a criminal until he kills his first victim either......

Seriously come on man, youre being intellectually dishonest here just to try and support the anti gun stance and you know it



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 12:14 PM
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reply to post by roughycannon
 

Well, I am happy to hear that your corner of the world is not as troubled by firearm violence as ours is. Now you have far MORE knife crime than we do..and insanely more if that's taken to compare with population for per capita rates. The overall number without allowing for population difference is more though which is saying quite a lot.

Your population and our population ...both find their ways of victimizing themselves by what is most available and at hand for the task. I can't personally forget seeing the victim of the mugger during the London riots that actually disrobed, peacefully and by command as if subservient to the mugger. I don't know many Americans who would strip for a criminal NOT holding a firearm ..and even then.. I'd be damned if I did that without resistance, at the very least.

Different cultures and very different ways of seeing life. Although different doesn't mean better per say. It means different. A victim of a major crime here may be shot like a duck in a gallery while one where you live gets gutted like a fish on the dock. I'll take shot to gutted, if I had to choose.

edit on 10-1-2013 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 12:24 PM
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Bad time to make a thread like this 20 minutes after another high school shooting...




posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 12:24 PM
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Originally posted by roughycannon
I'm from Scotland too but I don't agree with any of that.

The way we log crimes doesn't matter, the simple fact is that the USA has mass shooting every month and we don't, yes we have violent crime but this includes muggins and bar fights etc....


Hi Roughy,
Thanks for the quick response!

The point I was making, regarding the effective way the UK detects and logs violent crimes, was in relation to how it has an enormous effect on the officially recorded crime statistics.

Most "violent" crime in the UK, as you rightly point out, is fighting among young men at chuckin' out time, (as well as muggings etc.)
The vast majority of these fights/assaults take place at night in city centres, outside or near pubs/clubs, in full view of our infamous CCTV network.
Problems are VERY swiftly identified, and officers are on-scene, often in seconds or a very few minutes. The perpetrators are identified and arrested in a very large number of cases. It is an efficient system, which catches a lot of the violent crimes as they happen.
The result of which is a very high "recorded violent crimes" statistic, when compared to other countries with less intrusive monitoring, and slower response times.
This makes it look like the UK is far more "violent" in comparison with other places, when the reality is probably closer to the fact that the UK police are better at catching and processing violent criminal incidents.
That's why I believe that the way we detect/log violent crimes does matter.As it skews the violent crime figures.

regards
GTD



posted on Jan, 10 2013 @ 12:34 PM
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Originally posted by roughycannon
Bad time to make a thread like this 20 minutes after another high school shooting...



Why is it a bad time? The OP isn't condoning shootings.





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