New Report on the Phoenix Lights by a First-Hand Witness

reply to post by sbjazzman

Sorry Tom was referring to Proctor (the 5th video). See this thread which supports the above concerning the front of the mountain vs. back of the mountain war that was going on and that King as well as Jim D. said they simply cannot not rule out flares. They never said they were flares ufoupdateslist.com...

Contrast this with Tom's original statement (with mention of Motzer's insertion into the case) ufoupdateslist.com...

I won't even mention the government connections with all the people involved which leads me to believe that if they wanted to cover up the sightings that they would prefer to cover up the one with the most evidence.

In any event - this will be my closing post to this thread. People will believe what they want to believe. The narrative I've developed for myself and published doesn't rely on any one particular version of the events. Everyone agrees there were UFOs in the skies over Phoenix that night. My own research was to satisfy my curiosity and for me I feel I've accomplished that. I hope everyone who witnessed events or continue to research the events will also feel some sense of satisfaction.

Happy 16th Anniversary!

Good Day esteay812,

Originally posted by esteay812
reply to post by Frank Warren

 

Hi Frank! Glad to see you here and thanks for the information you're sharing.

Your very welcome and let me reiterate there is much more to what has become known as the Phoenix Lights then most realize; unfortunately it often gets swallowed up by the "flare video noise." The confusion began the very next day back in '97 with the media interviewing "eight o'clock witnesses" while showing the "ten o'clock" flare videos.

I've always thought of myself as pretty much an average room temperature type of person. I always thought that, if a corporation wanted to spend millions of dollars to research what the average American thinks about their product, they could save a lot of time and money by just asking me, lol.

I mention that, because I think my initial perspective is a pretty good indicator of what many average people think about the 'Phoenix Lights'.

Point is, being average, I had no idea - at all - that there were any other reports or sightings of a craft, aside from the flare drop sightings and video.

I think this is a valid exemplar. I did several interview sessions with Richard Motzter shortly before his death, and he was livid that so much time and energy was being wasted on flares while the events in the "eight o'clock hour" which is certainly is one of the most significant events in UFO history was playing second fiddle.

I was very surprised to learn that the 10p reports were not the initial sightings that evening. Once I figured that out, I was pretty much sold on the idea that something was really in the sky that night and there was a concerted effort to muddy the waters with a 10p flare drop.

Sightings of a large v-shaped craft were not limited to that time, night or state. (See one of Mike's earlier posts).

Realizing the initial reports had intentionally been hidden in most of the documentaries and reports made me feel even more suspicious about the whole situation.

Stating that "reports had intentionally been hidden" evokes the notion of some Machiavellian or conspiratorially effort. There are many issues re "documentary film makers" which quite frankly is deserved of a thread of its own; however, and off the cuff I would argue that producers have different agendas and goals in contrast to sober researchers, and often times their end product is the sum of that combined with sloppy research. Moreover, as Mike has stated time and time again, the "visual" always takes precedence.

So, as an average person, I know there are a lot of people out there who have no idea that there were earlier sightings reported that spanned many miles and covered several states. I think a lot of people believe the event was localized to the skies above the city, as seen in nearly every single cable documentary available.

Agreed. Like any case large or small, time goes by and people simply forget. New folk come to the table and absorb the "loudest echoes" of the past.

I do hope new reports, like FrznFenix, will help more people realize that the sightings were not localized and they describe seeing something much different than flares falling slowly from the sky.

I have already learned quite a bit from the activity here and I hope to learn even more, so, Thanks Again for joining the thread!

edit on 15-1-2013 by esteay812 because: (no reason given)

We have been fortunate over the years to uncover new or more accurately previously "unknown" witnesses almost every year because of the efforts of many in keeping this in the public domain.

In that vein–I thank "you" for your efforts in this instance.

Cheers,
Frank

Thanks for your thread OP. I know I'm a little late to reply. My ex's sister was attending
ORME a private high school in Mayer AZ at the time of the siting. She all her team mates
& coach or coaches experienced the siting around 8pm. The team had finished their
game & was heading back to the school. They pulled the van or bus over & got out
to watch the lights go by...she said it was a huge triangle of lights that glided silently in
formation & appeared to be 1 very large craft moving slowly across the sky.
Sorry that's all I can remember. Guess someone could go & research the players.

Cheers
Ektar

reply to post by Ektar


Ektar

Thanks for the post. It only affirms what we have been saying since the sighting occured on March 13, 1997. There are thousands of witnesses who have yet been recognized and their story of what they witnessed that night told.

I did a radio show in Prescott Valley in 2007. Before my show was an interview with a Chino Valley Chamber of Commerece person. He waited until after my show to meet me and tell me his story.....he was driving from Flagstaff to Chino Valley after a business meeting on March 13th 1997. He said cars on both sides of I-17 between Oak Creek (Sedona) exit and Cordez Junction were pulled over to the side of the road to watch the strange array of lights (craft).

One needs to ask one's self this question...what would it take for so many drivers to pull off the interstate to watch such an oddity? Most folks won't stop except for gas or a bathroom break....but many, many drivers did what your ex's daughter's driver did. It was such a profound sighting people knew almost immediately that this event was "special" and they wanted to observe it, not thru a windshield, but unobstructed and in full view. This occured all over the state of Arizona.

Thanks for your post Ektar.

reply to post by sbjazzman


That lower light that Jazman could not account for... I watched the "UFO's over Phoenix" video last night on my big TV and at the 15 minute mark they pause Steven's shot. Remember, this is a V shaped craft.

It looks like the lower right light is just the far end of the other wing. On the higher wing the 2 middle lights are on. On this lower wing the 2 middle lights are turned off. This means the craft is tilted at an odd angle, but many have talked about how the V seemed to morph at times.

Others have also stated that there were 2 trailing lights. This means that the far left light in Steven's shot is showing only 1 of the trailing lights.


Look at the 15 minute mark and tell me if you see it. Look at it full screen when it says "Responce":

www.youtube.com...

Good Day Steve,

Steve Blonder here Frank. Yes, every year the story gets rehashed so I'll keep my reply short and succinct. There were a tremendous amount of politics that occurred between the two MUFON camps (Hamilton and King vs. Motzer).

Sadly, I think some would argue that the 'politics" continues to this day.

Hamilton left MUFON over Motzer hijacking the narrative.

I don't mean to be rude Steve, but Motzer was following Tom Taylor's, (state director for MUFON) instructions and he certainly didn't control the media; to say he "hijacked" the narrative is disingenuous (to be polite).

As you also point out, there was a false choice strawman put out that said - If the Lights were in front of the mountain it must be UFOs, If behind the mountain they had to be flares. I personally never held to that false choice because of the previous nights' activity which showed the lights in front of and behind the Estrella range. Jim D. hung his case on the front of the mountain position which was proved false by the various studies you mentioned. I spoke to Jim after the interview and he assures me there were edits that took his comments out of context and that all he reversed was opening himself to the possibility that they were flares because his "in front of the mountain" thesis did not hold up. He has never declared the lights as flares.

If we're speaking of the same interview Jim gave a very detailed narrative re the new analysis, new tech etc., and to be fair and clear at the end of the 7 minute oratory, Jim concluded:

"What we can say for absolutely sure is that the lights are not in front of the mountain, thus increasing the probability they could be flares."

As you know Jim's stance for 14 years had been steadfast and adamant that the videos were in NO WAY of flares. Additionally, I would urge anyone reading this to listen to Jim in his own words and note the context (citing "new and vastly improved tech" for his his about-face) , as well as the reaction/response from David Biedny in finally clearing the air.

Tom King was shut out of much of the front of the mountain narrative.

"Shut out?" Again, this simply isn't accurate. In 2003 Tom King wrote:

"I had a falling out with them for a variety of reasons. One being they can't properly analyze the videos from that night."

and

"I had the falling out with Village Labs because I didn't like how they compartmentalized the case and were doing a shoddy investigation to boot. I think I did the right thing."

His quote refers to Rairden - not Proctor I believe and his mileage is not accurate. He does explain he was at a higher altitude which put the Lights very close to ridgeline that is 2,000 ft. lower than Krzsston's ridgeline which he doesn't address. Basically Tom decided to throw the entire "front of mountain" narrative under the bus as it's been explained to me by those involved.

Mike mentioned Tom earlier in this thread pointing out that he reversed his position; I felt it important to put it into proper context, i.e., meaning Tom is the one that shot the video at your house and did so in the capacity as an investigator. Moreover, he was one of the central figures in said capacity early on. He did a tremendous amount of research on the matter in toto, and specifically with the "flare videos." Most importantly as I stated the last time you and I discussed the matter (3 years ago): Tom King after the "sizzle" of seeing something that "seemed" extraordinary wore off, and he absorbed the preponderance of evidence–he determined that what "he and the others filmed" was the flare drop performed by the Maryland Air National Guard.

Tom wrote (in 2003):

"all_ 5 videos from that night were shot at the same time. The triangulation from all of the videos puts them far behind the Estrella Mountains. ASU did their own GPS positioning and confirmed this. A simple spilt screen of the videos shows how we all taped the same amber lights at the same time. Even Bruce Macabees own independent study confirms all of the above."

Bruce Maccabee never triangulated my position which was as you know the closest to the Lights. He wrote an addendum that tried to address this but he admittedly used an Orb that appeared a few minutes before the mass sighting which sent Hamilton and King to their cars for the their filming equipment - climb back up the stairs to catch the tail-end of earlier light which was why they were perfectly prepared to catch the full array.

Bruce didn't initially address the video shot by King from your home because he never received the original video or a copy when he requested it. However, he did as you correctly state offer his analysis in the addendum.

–continued below

–continued from above

Re the orb: Again this is incorrect. If one reads his paper/report the so-called orb or more accurately "a light" was from video frames (from the original video shot from your house) showing that there were ground lights and objects visible to use a reference points and one showed one of the so-called orbs. By combining the daytime and nighttime images, the field of view was deduced, thus enabling triangulation. The daylight and night-time shots (or stills) from your house were provided by Hamilton, as I presume you know.

I worked with Dr. Maccabee and Jim D. a couple of years ago which led to him revising his Triangulation reports to move the lights even further south because he was relying on the Jan. 1998 sighting coordinates of Rairden. He removed his reliance which puts his current position closer to Tucson than to Phoenix. There were no reports of the array in Tucson nor Gila Bend (10:00 pm) ufoupdateslist.com... also there were discrepancies in burn color of flares vs. the Lights taped. Dr.M still refused to triangulate my position and had me send all documentation to Marc DAntonio who has done nothing with it.

Once again, painting this as a "refusal" simply isn't true; In speaking with Bruce today, he indicated that there merely wasn't any need to reiterate the original analysis other then having "someone else" taking a gander at it. I wouldn't put to much into Marc's idleness on the matter given the collective analyses of the preponderance of evidence that has already taken place confirming flares. I would imagine it's just not a priority.

Finally - I think everyone would have to admit that it's one hell of a coincidence that I witnessed the same Lights 4 nights in a row. Even if we pretend that March 13th's Lights were flares, that leaves 3 previous nights of unanswered UFO sightings that don't seem to matter in the scheme of things which brings me to the point I want to make sure I'm clear about. I have never felt the need to dismiss the 8:30 sightings - evidence or not, nor to hog the "glamor" surrounding the 10:00 pm event. For some reason you and others feel that the only way to get to the truth of the earlier sighting is to invalidate the later one. One day someone will write a book on the politics of this sighting.

Given that training was taking place via Operation Snowbird which employs live and inert munitions, flares, and chaff and different aircraft I don't think it's a coincidence at all.

I've never said you were trying to dismiss the 8:30 sightings or to hog the "glamor" surrounding the 10:00 pm event. Moreover, speaking for myself: the goal is to solve the mystery of the UFO phenomenon in general and in this instance what we have come to know as "The Phoenix Lights" using scientific method and or investigative journalistic principles. Re the flare videos–this has been done time and time again (using scientific analysis specifically), and that mystery has been solved (long ago I might add). The answers that still elude us is what the huge object was that cruised over Arizona on March 13, 1997.

Cheers,
Frank

reply to post by mikefortson


You are welcome. We had a cabin in Williamson Valley, so beautiful there & they had a
light ordinance. Bloody Hell the stars looked like you could reach up & touch them.
We were living in the LA area & using the cabin 3 to 4 times a yr or more but not actually
living there so we let my ex's mum & her daughter live there since the daughter had
been excepted at ORME.

Me dad lives in Surprise, AZ but he did not witness anything....there's alot of light
pollution in the location where he resides on a golf course.

Cheers
Ektar

reply to post by weavty1


I have a feeling there are photos of the 8p event out there, but I do not know of any that are publicly available. Hopefully there will be a witness, or a few witnesses, come forward with images or video of the event

< Hamilton left MUFON over Motzer hijacking the narrative.>



Tom shot the March 13 video - I shot the videos March 10 thru early March 13. His professionalism is contrasted with his ostracism from the UFO Investigative Community when he was later found to be faking a sighting. He was a very frustrated and mixed-up individual though I continued to try to reach out to him to better understand his change of position. Much of what bothered him concerned the commercialization of the sighting through books, videos etc. I've tried to contact him to numerous times to try to get him compensation for film that been used on various documentaries. Also consider that when he did his research over a decade ago he did not have the technology available today and was focused on determining which side of the mountain the lights were on and whether there was one group of lights or multiples. He never did a frame by frame analysis looking at the day/night composite photos which I made available on my sight for others to replicate or tear apart as they see fit.

>

We uncovered a couple of years ago that Bill provided a screen grab to Bruce from what we call Light 0 which was left of the position of the array that formed a few minutes later. This was the light Dr. Macabbee based his addendum on. I asked him to update his site and alas he never has. The adjustment can be found in the Nat Geo powerpoint on my site.

reply to post by Ektar


Ektar! You are not early or late, you are right on time, =-) .

Thanks for your post and describing the sighting of someone you have/had direct contact with. I am learning more and more about this event and, even though it's 16 year later, I am intrigued by many of the details I never knew about.

It seems that everyone who reports seeing the 8p-9p event are adament that there is no way what they saw could be flares. Obviously, I haven't heard all the reports, but, of those I have heard, none of them even hint to the possibility that the 8p-9p event could have been flares.

Hopefully more people, like you, will see this thread and be compelled to share their story too. I am sure everyone interested in the case would welcome new reports of the sighting by any and all new witnesses.

Thank You for taking the time to post here and share what you know, I do appreciate that.

reply to post by esteay812


As you well know now esteay812, not only has the mass sighting throughout the state of Arizona on March 13, 1997 still found exciting to those who do a little research, but they also find the empassioned effect left on those who witnessed the events first hand.

Congratulations on a job well done starting this thread.

Computer test have ruled out flares. Military pilots have publically ruled out flares. Charles Byers, pyrotech expert and president of Accuracy Systems Ordinance, someone who supplied the military with flares, is another one who has ruled out flares. Illumination flares are attached to a parachute and dropped by a plane, and they smoke. There is no film of any plane dropping these so-called flares.

Want to see what it looks like when a Warthog drops flares.


www.zazzle.com...

www.defense.gov...

felixdk.websitetoolbox.com...

STOP wasting our time talking about flares.

reply to post by mikefortson


Thanks for the compliment, but, really, it was all of those who have been active in this thread that have taken it to it's current level of success. It was hard for me to be much more than a student, since I knew so little about the 8p sightings and you guys know the details of the fine-print.

My general ignorance on the 'Phoenix Lights' let me feel more like a moderator, a mediator, and/or a thread host who got lucky 3 times - maybe more;

1st: when I spotted Fenix's comment and his willingness to share his story and answer member questions in this thread.

2nd: the 'in-thread' interaction of members like you, spiritualarchitect, Frank Warren, Steve Blonder, etc and the historical knowledge of the Phoenix Lights event you all bring with you ...

3rd: a general lack of trolls & their trolling posts and thread derailing efforts.

or maybe it was all meant to be

reply to post by mikefortson


THANKS MUCH, Mike for your msg here.

I saw/heard your presentation at a well attended SW conference several years ago and was impressed then with your sincerity and objectivity.

1. I'm curious how much you've been hassled by the powers that be given your visibility.

2. I'm also curious how many/what percentage of your associates and relatives have come around to your view over the years compared to initially.

3. Also, a particular curiosity--what's your take on Stan Romanek's case? I think he was at the same conference you were at [deliberately not mentioning the location].

4. Another question . . . What have you felt about the last year's incremental escalations in such goings on?

5. And this increasing sort of thing out of the Vatican?

www.raidersnewsupdate.com...

Christians will not immediately need to renounce their faith in God “simply on the basis of the reception of [this] new, unexpected information of a religious character from extraterrestrial civilizations.” However, once the “religious content” originating from outside the earth “has been verified” they will have to conduct “a re-reading [of the Gospel] inclusive of the new data…”

6. IT SEEMS TO ME that the "Phoenix lights' event was a marked escalation in the planned . . . scenarios.

7. And that the emerging stuff from the Vatican is another level of a marked escalation.

8. Can you see the two fitting any particular strategy, scenario, goal? If so, what?

9. Otherwise, what do we have? Increased night sightings with SOME increase in dramatic daylight sightings? To what end? How much more of an incremental escalation of such can we have before there's nothing left to escalate any further?

10. If we are able to conceptualize a graph line . . . a curve sloping more and more steeply up with each incremental increase in presented info/displayed delusion [not psychological delusion in terms of not being real but delusion in the sense that the demonstrations and assertions about them are not 100% accurate. i.e. that the critters are actually NOT nice or that the good-cop/bad-cop charade they are being cast in toward forcing a world government on the planet is not the whole story]

11. So visualize a curve . . . where the peak ends up with fairly brazen overt demonstrations in broad daylight . . . and where the graph reaches 90* vertical just before such brazen demonstrations . . . what could we guesstimate the curve is roughly at currently?

12. If we start the curve horizontal in 1947 . . . and hypothesize the end-point 90* with purportedly 'full' demonstrations on the nightly news with the craft in broad daylight and/or the critters being interviewed . . . what percentage of the curve could we guess to be left?

Originally posted by BO XIAN
reply to post by mikefortson

 

THANKS MUCH, Mike for your msg here.

I saw/heard your presentation at a well attended SW conference several years ago and was impressed then with your sincerity and objectivity.

1. I'm curious how much you've been hassled by the powers that be given your visibility.

2. I'm also curious how many/what percentage of your associates and relatives have come around to your view over the years compared to initially.

3. Also, a particular curiosity--what's your take on Stan Romanek's case? I think he was at the same conference you were at [deliberately not mentioning the location].

4. Another question . . . What have you felt about the last year's incremental escalations in such goings on?

5. And this increasing sort of thing out of the Vatican?

www.raidersnewsupdate.com...

Christians will not immediately need to renounce their faith in God “simply on the basis of the reception of [this] new, unexpected information of a religious character from extraterrestrial civilizations.” However, once the “religious content” originating from outside the earth “has been verified” they will have to conduct “a re-reading [of the Gospel] inclusive of the new data…”

6. IT SEEMS TO ME that the "Phoenix lights' event was a marked escalation in the planned . . . scenarios.

7. And that the emerging stuff from the Vatican is another level of a marked escalation.

8. Can you see the two fitting any particular strategy, scenario, goal? If so, what?

9. Otherwise, what do we have? Increased night sightings with SOME increase in dramatic daylight sightings? To what end? How much more of an incremental escalation of such can we have before there's nothing left to escalate any further?

10. If we are able to conceptualize a graph line . . . a curve sloping more and more steeply up with each incremental increase in presented info/displayed delusion [not psychological delusion in terms of not being real but delusion in the sense that the demonstrations and assertions about them are not 100% accurate. i.e. that the critters are actually NOT nice or that the good-cop/bad-cop charade they are being cast in toward forcing a world government on the planet is not the whole story]

11. So visualize a curve . . . where the peak ends up with fairly brazen overt demonstrations in broad daylight . . . and where the graph reaches 90* vertical just before such brazen demonstrations . . . what could we guesstimate the curve is roughly at currently?

12. If we start the curve horizontal in 1947 . . . and hypothesize the end-point 90* with purportedly 'full' demonstrations on the nightly news with the craft in broad daylight and/or the critters being interviewed . . . what percentage of the curve could we guess to be left?

BO XIAN,

Wow! I'm not sure I have the answers you may be seeking on some of your questions...but here goes...

First of all thank you for the nice words. Maybe we met at the Aztec Symposium in NM. I am glad you enjoyed my presentation and views as to what happened on March 13, 1997 and since.

I have not been hassled by any of TPTB at all. Actually, when I was at my son's wedding in Chantilly, VA., a few years ago three civilian DoD employees did ask for some of my time to answer questions. You would be surprised possibly that "they" are as interested in the massive V shaped craft as we are. They asked great questions, and I was very impressed they were interested. I assure you our government has no clue what-so-ever as to what, who, where they from, or anything else about "them".

My family (sons- 35, 36, and 38) don't talk with us about it much anymore. But, I assure you, they all wish for their chance. And this is the way it should be. Listen to witnesses, but hope that your sighting is as impactfull on yourself, as ours was. I hope that makes sense. Other family members have treated my wife and I as well as can be expected. We saw it. They didn't. They want to believe. We know. When someone asks me..."do you believe in ufo's and aliens?" I say..."No, I know they exist!".

I do not follow the Romanek case. Really, I'm obsessed with 3/13/97, giant boomerang craft, and V shapes. They all have regular sightings all over the planet. Add work and family life, there's no time.

As to your religious questions....I believe my God is the creator of all things...Heaven and Earth. So, in my mind He would be "their" creator as well. This is a question I would ask first if I had the opportunity.

I think the "Phoenix Lights" or as I prefer to say, "The Massive UFO Flyover of Arizona, March 13, 1997", was a planned and calculated attempt by interdiminsial beings to parade thru our airspace without challenge or interruption.

I wish daily to see "it" again.

the incident remains one of the most impressive and well-witnessed in ufo history, and one of my firm favourites. i believe the incident was of tremendous significance and importance. a classic case.

reply to post by mikefortson



THX TONS, MIKE,

Much appreciate your kind, meaty, and thoughtful reply.

I can understand being more than moderately fascinated with your experience.

I don't recall for sure, if you had any of the mental anomalies . . . forgetting to talk about it . . . that some others reported. IIRC, you did not have such experiences.

In terms of the related issues . . . it's not a question for me whether or not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob created ALL that is. Of course He did.

It's that some of His elevated creatures rebelled . . . and appear to be involved in an incredible deception planned for thousands of years.

The seemingly carefully calibrated incremental revelations over many decades in this dramatic END TIMES era seems to this psychologist to be meticulously structured and strategized.

The large craft sorts of things like you experienced seem, to me, to be greatly designed to tweak up the awe factor--rather successfully.

Imagine 100's of those craft and larger saucer shaped "mother ships" descending in broad daylight over the major cities of the world . . . particularly in the midst of or somewhat after the peak of great traumas and conflict--maybe even WW3.

Or perhaps a good-cop/bad-cop war between different critter 'races,' purportedly . . . won finally by the 'good cops' variety of critter . . . though in terms of their boss, I don't know that it matters which variety would win. The net effect for humans would still end up being tyrannical control far greater than ever in recorded history.

From your experience with your sighting . . . if you can and are willing to put yourself in the above scenario a bit . . . what could you extrapolate as to your guesses regarding the average citizens' responses to such a scenario?

God's best to you and those you love.

reply to post by BO XIAN


Bo! Thanks for joining the thread!

I find it fascinating that there are so many sightings where event amnesia, or forgetting to talk about it, is mentioned.

It sounds so strange and insignificant to hear someone say, 'I meant to say something, but I just forgot to talk about it'... especially in relation to witnessing a craft, possibly from another world. It seems like the witness would be so impressed by the sighting that they would never be able to shut up about it and they would constantly tell their experience to anyone and everyone who would listen.

I can understand why someone who has never witnessed something like this, or experienced the effects described by those witnesses, would find it hard to believe that someone would simply 'forget to talk about' the time in their life when they saw a U.F.O., with possible alien origins.

The witnesses probably all feel a great deal of frustration each time they realize they forgot to talk about it, even though they made a point to talk about it.

It seems completely illogical that someone would simply 'forget' to mention their sighting of E.T.'s Cadillac. It does happen, I just wish there was a way for the witnesses to accurately convey their feelings of forgetfullnes or amnesia.... maybe in 100 years we'll have a machine to help with that,