New Report on the Phoenix Lights by a First-Hand Witness

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posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 10:49 PM
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reply to post by sbjazzman
 


Thanks for embedding that jazzman! That is actually a video I was looking for a couple days ago, but couldn't find it. I coudn't remember the name and how it started out. I got a little frustrated and gave up after trying to skip through different videos failed to reveal anything I recognized.
edit on 14-1-2013 by esteay812 because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 11:19 PM
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Originally posted by esteay812
reply to post by sbjazzman
 


Thanks for embedding that jazzman! That is actually a video I was looking for a couple days ago, but couldn't find it. I coudn't remember the name and how it started out. I got a little frustrated and gave up after trying to skip through different videos failed to reveal anything I recognized.
edit on 14-1-2013 by esteay812 because: (no reason given)


You're welcome. One interview I'd like to point out in that documentary concerns the Maryland Air National Guard statement that flares were dropped over the North Tac Range at the Goldwater base. Here's is a correspondence from Bill Hamilton (the MUFON investigator who present at my home the night of March 13) where he referenced FOIA documents that show the discrepancies between what the ANG said and what Dr. Bruce Maccabee said in reference to where he triangulated the flares (now 40 miles away from where the ANG said they were deployed). The Cognitech study relied on the North Tac position to rationalize their angle to where the supposed flares went over the range. Note - no radar picked up if it was the North Tac Range (should have been picked it or if closer). If Dr. Maccabee's triangulation was correct - there should have been visuals from Gila Bend and Tucson. ufoupdateslist.com...



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 12:23 PM
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reply to post by esteay812
 


How did you embed that?



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 12:24 PM
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The Phoenix lights are a regular occurrence. I have seen them. Want my report?



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 12:37 PM
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reply to post by nixie_nox
 


2006

Here is one "flare" able to fly around on its own.

www.youtube.com...



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 12:48 PM
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reply to post by esteay812
 


"I'm really just speculating, but common sense dictates that our air-guardsmen would have been launched into the region to monitor the giant craft and engage is neccassary. Personally, I would be surprised to learn that no military craft were spotted by, at least, a few people that night..."



"In short, on the night of March 13, 1997, USAF personnel stationed at both Luke AFB in Glendale and Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson were a bit scared, as something was occurring over the skies of central and southern Arizona that night, and the on-duty personnel at both bases had no idea what it was. That night, Luke AFB scrambled two F-16C's from the 56th Fighter Wing, however, these aircraft were not vectored southwest of Phoenix towards the source of the lights, but directly south towards Tucson. What is known further, is that less than 10 minutes later, a second set of F-16C's from the 56th were also scrambled and sent south-east.

Radio reports from the first flight of aircraft indicated something "odd" was occurring, however the pilots never gave any indication or specifics (in the open at any rate), as to what that was. Both flights were kept away intentionally from the lights being seen near the Estrella range. It was obvious to all with access that there were other aircraft in the area, with orders to drop flares (whether this was the Maryland ANG is unknown). It was felt that this was indeed a "deception" measure to keep curiosity focused on one space in the sky, as flares were never used that far north of the Goldwater training range (as any Luke personnel can tell you, if they were, there would be weekly "Phoenix Lights" incidents).

The next morning, wing intelligence units at both Luke and Davis-Monthan were scrambling to compile information. No one knew what had occurred the night before, but for some top officers that were summoned in during or just after the incident, there was an element of anxiety (I would not say fear, though many were disconcerted). The "hush" order took a few days to trickle down, but it was not a complete wash-up. Because of the sheer amount of public scrutiny, focusing on the "flares" video and photos allowed for a convenient and plausible explanation. Few in the mainstream press talked about the "other" sightings that night, focusing on the large triangular craft that had passed over the Phoenix metro area, the outskirts of Tucson, and over Fort Huachuca before slipping in to Mexico.

Neither did anyone mention the F-16's at all. Even though we KNOW there were numerous civilian witnesses to the scrambles (and even a few mentions here and there), NO ONE in the media asked what we all hoped they would, if this entire incident was just "flares" dropped from ANG aircraft, why then were four F-16's in the air that night, with one pair flying all the way to the Mexican border before turning back to Luke?

The incident has quietly fallen down the memory hole for most, but not for many USAF personnel close to the incident that night. There is a considerable amount of information that was never leaked, and for an incident of this magnitude, the mind boggles as to why.........

by Topol-M


www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 12:51 PM
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reply to post by spiritualarchitect
 


Let me count on my fingers a moment and figure out what year I would of seen them.....

2006.

I didn't see any flying around though.



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 01:40 PM
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Originally posted by spiritualarchitect
reply to post by nixie_nox
 


2006

Here is one "flare" able to fly around on its own.

www.youtube.com...


3 nights ago.



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 01:41 PM
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reply to post by sbjazzman
 


Those are stars.



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by spiritualarchitect
reply to post by esteay812
 


"I'm really just speculating, but common sense dictates that our air-guardsmen would have been launched into the region to monitor the giant craft and engage is neccassary. Personally, I would be surprised to learn that no military craft were spotted by, at least, a few people that night..."



"In short, on the night of March 13, 1997, USAF personnel stationed at both Luke AFB in Glendale and Davis-Monthan AFB in Tucson were a bit scared, as something was occurring over the skies of central and southern Arizona that night, and the on-duty personnel at both bases had no idea what it was. That night, Luke AFB scrambled two F-16C's from the 56th Fighter Wing, however, these aircraft were not vectored southwest of Phoenix towards the source of the lights, but directly south towards Tucson. What is known further, is that less than 10 minutes later, a second set of F-16C's from the 56th were also scrambled and sent south-east.

Radio reports from the first flight of aircraft indicated something "odd" was occurring, however the pilots never gave any indication or specifics (in the open at any rate), as to what that was. Both flights were kept away intentionally from the lights being seen near the Estrella range. It was obvious to all with access that there were other aircraft in the area, with orders to drop flares (whether this was the Maryland ANG is unknown). It was felt that this was indeed a "deception" measure to keep curiosity focused on one space in the sky, as flares were never used that far north of the Goldwater training range (as any Luke personnel can tell you, if they were, there would be weekly "Phoenix Lights" incidents).

The next morning, wing intelligence units at both Luke and Davis-Monthan were scrambling to compile information. No one knew what had occurred the night before, but for some top officers that were summoned in during or just after the incident, there was an element of anxiety (I would not say fear, though many were disconcerted). The "hush" order took a few days to trickle down, but it was not a complete wash-up. Because of the sheer amount of public scrutiny, focusing on the "flares" video and photos allowed for a convenient and plausible explanation. Few in the mainstream press talked about the "other" sightings that night, focusing on the large triangular craft that had passed over the Phoenix metro area, the outskirts of Tucson, and over Fort Huachuca before slipping in to Mexico.

Neither did anyone mention the F-16's at all. Even though we KNOW there were numerous civilian witnesses to the scrambles (and even a few mentions here and there), NO ONE in the media asked what we all hoped they would, if this entire incident was just "flares" dropped from ANG aircraft, why then were four F-16's in the air that night, with one pair flying all the way to the Mexican border before turning back to Luke?

The incident has quietly fallen down the memory hole for most, but not for many USAF personnel close to the incident that night. There is a considerable amount of information that was never leaked, and for an incident of this magnitude, the mind boggles as to why.........

by Topol-M


www.abovetopsecret.com...


The military was aware since at least March 11 when jets were scrambled toward 2 orbs we spotted that evening. We reported the March 10 sighting to the Air Force. Earlier in the evening of March 13, I was filming many objects in the sky which could have been a combination of orbs, private aircraft, military and helicopters. One thing I'll mention concerning hearsay reports such as Topol's, is that there is no way to verify tatements such as " It was obvious to all with access that there were other aircraft in the area, with orders to drop flares (whether this was the Maryland ANG is unknown). It was felt that this was indeed a "deception" measure to keep curiosity focused on one space in the sky, as flares were never used that far north of the Goldwater training range (as any Luke personnel can tell you, if they were, there would be weekly "Phoenix Lights" incidents)."
edit on 15-1-2013 by sbjazzman because: corrected typo



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 07:09 PM
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reply to post by mikefortson
 


Greetings Mike, All,

Sorry to come to the party so late, and please bear with me as in my haste I'm certain I've overlooked various commentaries, statements etc., in this ever-growing thread so allow me to apologize in advance for any repetition.

First, thanks to the OP for the thread and more importantly reaching out to the previously unknown witness, getting his permission to publish his experience and working with him and inviting him here to discuss it–good work!

Thank you FrznFenix for being so forthcoming and sharing your experience, as Mike has frequently stated, there are many more witnesses who "haven't" come forward then have (or words to that effect).

Working backwards: in regards to "entities" – this is one of the lesser known (to put it mildly) elements of the (erroneously labeled) Phoenix Lights case. Point of fact is there were/are competent witnesses who were in very close proximity to the large craft in the eight o'clock hour who actually saw "windows" (for lack of a better description) and "figures" therein.

"Some" other most important often overlooked factors:

• The feeling of "benevolence" or absence of fear across the board with "up-close & personal witnesses.

• Reports of telepathy by competent witnesses.

• Reports of amnesia.

• MIB reports.

So much energy is wasted on the subterfuge, i.e., the 10:00 pm "flare drop" or more accurately, the "imagery" thereof that focus of the real UFO events gets lost in the noise. This happens every year as the anniversary nears, and although tiresome it has come to be expected.

Last year, right here at "ATS Live" Mike said it best:

". . . the videos that were shot at ten o'clock . . . what they video-taped truly, was an intentional diversionary flare drop."

Now, whether the flare drop was an "intentional diversion" is arguable; however, if it's true–it has worked brilliantly!

(Mark Allin and the boys at ATS Live granted us permission to publish a pertinent snippet of the interview which can be found here.)

One of the surprise callers during that segment was Dr Bruce Maccabee, and he once again stated emphatically:

". . . the Lights at Ten O'Clock were Flares; The Real UFO Business was Between Eight and Nine PM!"

The first to "presume" that the videos were flares were actually some of the people that were present when some of the videos were being shot, as people were just stating the obvious giving the location, regular military activity etc.

The first to "deduce" through research and analysis the videos were of flares was MUFON Investigator, Richard Motzer. His original report can seen here:

THE PHOENIX LIGHTS, THE REAL INVESTIGATION

Keep in mind that this was published in the MUFON Journal just 4 months after the the main events of March 13.

Later Motzer's conclusions would be "scientifically confirmed" by Dr Bruce Maccabee, Cognitech & ASU respectively.

Two of the early stalwarts the flares being something that they weren't was Tom King and Jim DIlettoso; both had done a tremendous amount of research on the matter and both reversed their respective positions after the preponderance of scientific evidence became undeniable. Tom King wrote in '02:


That night Steve Blonder was contacted by Bill as he had a series of sightings the prior nights. Bill asked me if I wanted to come along. I did and brought a telescope and SVHS video camera, Bill also brought his video camera.

I have done alot of work on those March 13, 1997 videos. I broke them done into as many pieces as I could. I spent many nights taping flares to compare to these videos. There was alot of confusion brought into the case because of the media. Needless to say the videos themselves were confusing as they all seemed to portray a simular event but different video running times, different number of lights, etc... One of the biggest arguments against the flare theory is they were infront of the Estrellas mts. This meant they were over the southern Phoenix area and shouldn't be flares. . . .


–continued below



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 07:21 PM
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reply to post by spiritualarchitect
 


There seem to be a couple different ways to embed youtube videos, but they all include the 'VID:YOUTUBE' feature located on the Reply/Comment construction page. You will notice 13 different buttons, each offering a different feature to help compose your posts/threads.

When I want to embed a YouTube.com video, I visit youtube, then copy the address to the youtube page with the chosen video.

Next, I open the ATS Reply/Comment construction page and paste the youtube address in the reply/comment _

Seeing the complete address in the example below, you can easily identify what needs to be done next.

http :// www. youtube.com / watch ? v = u2KQvInLAVw

*spacing in the above address applied to keep the link inactive

Using the above address, locate the numbers and letters that appear after the = (equals) sign. In this example, those numbers and letters would be:

u2KQvInLAVw

Once you have pinpointed the numbers and letters 'tag' for the relative video, click the 'VID:YOUTUBE' feature button - located to the right of 'LIST' button and to the left of 'VID:GOOGLE'

A small script prompt window will appear, asking you to enter the youtube video number.

Simply paste the u2KQvInLAVw in this window and press 'OK'



Once finished, you can erase the full youtube address, used to indetify the video number. Many members do not follow this process, actually, I no longer do it this way. After learning how to properly embed, you can simply search for the video number in the address bar and copy it from there.

I suggest copying the whole address, as described, to get used to what you are looking for. It really isn't hard to learn, but not knowing where to start makes it difficult figure out.

Sorry this is so drawn out, I hope it helps.


edit on 15-1-2013 by esteay812 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 07:25 PM
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reply to post by FrznFenix
 


Originally posted by FrznFenix
I just went and spoke with my father. He refuses to get online and talk about. I even asked him to wrote down a few things on paper for me and I would relay them. He again refused. He went in to make his bed because he had been at work all day and my dad was never a real believer in Aliens. He is admittedly too religiously. He does not deny what he saw that night for a second. He just won't talk about it anymore.


I can relate to that.
My family and a neighbor saw something incredibly huge too.
It's over 30Years ago now, but the memories never really faded.
I was a child, somewhere between 8-10Years old, and the event got me very excited and curious.
I could not understand why my parents got so uncomfortable.
At this age I had not heard of UFO's, E.T.'s, had not seen any related movies(it was 1979-81, TV was something entirely different as compared to now, and I wasn't allowed to watch most of the things anyway).

To this day, every time I bring this up they would remember and have never denied it really happened, but I never was able to get more than: "Yes, that was really something"
End of discussion.

I think I began to understand a few years ago, when I witnessed a second event, which was basically just a tiny light that moved in a very strange manner.
But that tiny light, it shocked me. I really mean that and I absolutely don't know why. But it did.
That's why I tend do believe what we saw back then probably shocked the living hell out of my parents.


edit on 15-1-2013 by derpif because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 07:34 PM
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reply to post by Frank Warren
 


–continued from above


Seems like everyone did their digital test on the Mike Crysten video and placed the lights in front, or over the mountain ridge. My test, which did a simple day to night disolve, placed them right at the ridge-line. This part is controversial since everyone was getting different results, depending on what they used for control variables to measure against.

However, I was able to determine that all videos were shot at 10:00 pm.

I did a simple split screen of 4 videos and they matched. This means the lights in Mike Crysten's video did fall behind the mountain ridge. When Mike's video ends, Terry some 10 miles + behind him was still taping the objects. This happens because Terry is at a higher altitude and can still see the lights. Again, this confirms the lights were triangulated just behind the Estrella Mountains


Jim Dilettoso reversed himself on the air and can be heard in his own words here:

Photographic Expert, Jim Dilettoso Reverses Position

Another pertinent fact is that many of the Maryland Air National Guard that were involved in the flare drop have come forward including Capt. Drew Sullins detailing the flare drop; below is the interview that good friend and colleague Kenny Young did with Sullins back in '97:

PHOENIX LIGHTS: Project SNOWBIRD and the Flare Drop An Interview By Kenny Young

What I've gone over here re the flare videos is just the tip of the iceberg; the irony is that none of the folks that keep beating the flare videos to death don't discount the notion that true UFO events took place in the eight o'clock hour. So I say let's focus on what we agree on instead of continuing to muddying the waters.

If Mike is right and there was a premeditated decision to drop the flares as a diversion (which is a very plausible argument given that there is evidence of UFO activity as early as late afternoon), then it was the best tactic the PTB could have done as here we are 16 years later talking about an issue that was resolved over 15 years ago.

Cheers,
Frank



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 07:52 PM
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reply to post by Frank Warren
 


Hi Frank! Glad to see you here and thanks for the information you're sharing.

I've always thought of myself as pretty much an average room temperature type of person. I always thought that, if a corporation wanted to spend millions of dollars to research what the average American thinks about their product, they could save a lot of time and money by just asking me, lol.

I mention that, because I think my initial perspective is a pretty good indicator of what many average people think about the 'Phoenix Lights'.

Point is, being average, I had no idea - at all - that there were any other reports or sightings of a craft, aside from the flare drop sightings and video.

I was very surprised to learn that the 10p reports were not the initial sightings that evening. Once I figured that out, I was pretty much sold on the idea that something was really in the sky that night and there was a concerted effort to muddy the waters with a 10p flare drop.

Realizing the initial reports had intentionally been hidden in most of the documentaries and reports made me feel even more suspicious about the whole situation.

So, as an average person, I know there are a lot of people out there who have no idea that there were earlier sightings reported that spanned many miles and covered several states. I think a lot of people believe the event was localized to the skies above the city, as seen in nearly every single cable documentary available.

I do hope new reports, like FrznFenix, will help more people realize that the sightings were not localized and they describe seeing something much different than flares falling slowly from the sky.

I have already learned quite a bit from the activity here and I hope to learn even more, so, Thanks Again for joining the thread!


edit on 15-1-2013 by esteay812 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 08:56 PM
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reply to post by Frank Warren
 


Hi Frank, thanks for jumping in. You are the master for detail. Thanks for posting all the links. I hope those who have made incorrect assessments go to the links for clarity. Most don't understand just how complicated the case is. It would be true to say nearly all media reports go out of their way to simplify a very complicated mass sighting. I only hope in my lifetime those interested in this unique mass sighting have access to the whole story. I also hope, "The Massive UFO Flyover of Arizona, March 13, 1997" aka Phoenix Lights will be found by future generations as much more than a military flare drop.



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 09:13 PM
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reply to post by esteay812
 


The account in the OP fails to identify the most key thing....TIME OF SIGHTING.

From my research, there were TWO different sightings that night, an 8PM event, and a 10PM event. The 10PM event was video-taped, and is perfectly explained by "Operation Snowbird", the A-10's dropping flares, etc.

However, the 8PM event was different (and recorded by NUFORC), yet I'm puzzled how we can have three different videos of the 10PM event (which lasted less than 5 min), and yet none of the 8PM event that witnesses attest to. According to testimonials, it was a much longer sighting, yet no pics or video, over a major U.S. city? Certainly doesn't help......Given the description, it sounds like the OP testimony was of the 8PM event.



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 09:46 PM
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reply to post by Gazrok
 


Hi Gazrok!

I am not sure if it is in the Opening Post, but the time of the sighting is, subsequently, given by the witness in a later post. Maybe on page2.

He said the time was around 8p, as the sun was setting, or had just gone down. He mentioned that he always left his aunt's house at around 8pm, to head home. That is what he was doing on the evening he witnessed the light formation.

I agree, it seems like there would be some video or photographs of the 8p incident available. Personally, I think there are some unseen photos or video out there, locked up by a witness/es for the past 16 years. It's possible that there are unknown witnesses out there, just like FrznFenix, who have recorded or photographed the event, but have yet to come forward - for whatever reason.

It may seem unbelieveable that someone would have rare video or photographic evidence and never report it or their sighting, but it does happen.... I know this because I have many pictures of the World Trade Center attacks on 9/11.

I have never formally told my story and the images have never been published, as I have only shown them to a couple people... my mom, dad, and 1 brother. I have 2 sisters and another brother and their spouses who have never seen my photos or heard my experience of that week, not to mention all my nephews, nieces, great-nieces (lol), aunts, uncles, etc, etc.



edit on 15-1-2013 by esteay812 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 10:32 PM
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Amazing and very detailed info there, Mr. Warren - Thank you!!

Question for all: Is there even ONE image of the 8pm sighting, anywhere??



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 11:29 PM
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Originally posted by Frank Warren
reply to post by mikefortson
 

Keep in mind that this was published in the MUFON Journal just 4 months after the the main events of March 13.

Later Motzer's conclusions would be "scientifically confirmed" by Dr Bruce Maccabee, Cognitech & ASU respectively.

Two of the early stalwarts the flares being something that they weren't was Tom King and Jim DIlettoso; both had done a tremendous amount of research on the matter and both reversed their respective positions after the preponderance of scientific evidence became undeniable. Tom King wrote in '02:


That night Steve Blonder was contacted by Bill as he had a series of sightings the prior nights. Bill asked me if I wanted to come along. I did and brought a telescope and SVHS video camera, Bill also brought his video camera.

I have done alot of work on those March 13, 1997 videos. I broke them done into as many pieces as I could. I spent many nights taping flares to compare to these videos. There was alot of confusion brought into the case because of the media. Needless to say the videos themselves were confusing as they all seemed to portray a simular event but different video running times, different number of lights, etc... One of the biggest arguments against the flare theory is they were infront of the Estrellas mts. This meant they were over the southern Phoenix area and shouldn't be flares. . . .


–continued below


Steve Blonder here Frank. Yes, every year the story gets rehashed so I'll keep my reply short and succinct. There were a tremendous amount of politics that occurred between the two MUFON camps (Hamilton and King vs. Motzer). Hamilton left MUFON over Motzer hijacking the narrative. As you also point out, there was a false choice strawman put out that said - If the Lights were in front of the mountain it must be UFOs, If behind the mountain they had to be flares. I personally never held to that false choice because of the previous nights' activity which showed the lights in front of and behind the Estrella range. Jim D. hung his case on the front of the mountain position which was proved false by the various studies you mentioned. I spoke to Jim after the interview and he assures me there were edits that took his comments out of context and that all he reversed was opening himself to the possibility that they were flares because his "in front of the mountain" thesis did not hold up. He has never declared the lights as flares.

Tom King was shut out of much of the front of the mountain narrative. His quote refers to Rairden - not Proctor I believe and his mileage is not accurate. He does explain he was at a higher altitude which put the Lights very close to ridgeline that is 2,000 ft. lower than Krzsston's ridgeline which he doesn't address. Basically Tom decided to throw the entire "front of mountain" narrative under the bus as it's been explained to me by those involved.

Bruce Maccabee never triangulated my position which was as you know the closest to the Lights. He wrote an addendum that tried to address this but he admittedly used an Orb that appeared a few minutes before the mass sighting which sent Hamilton and King to their cars for the their filming equipment - climb back up the stairs to catch the tail-end of earlier light which was why they were perfectly prepared to catch the full array.

I worked with Dr. Maccabee and Jim D. a couple of years ago which led to him revising his Triangulation reports to move the lights even further south because he was relying on the Jan. 1998 sighting coordinates of Rairden. He removed his reliance which puts his current position closer to Tucson than to Phoenix. There were no reports of the array in Tucson nor Gila Bend (10:00 pm) ufoupdateslist.com... also there were discrepancies in burn color of flares vs. the Lights taped. Dr.M still refused to triangulate my position and had me send all documentation to Marc DAntonio who has done nothing with it.

Finally - I think everyone would have to admit that it's one hell of a coincidence that I witnessed the same Lights 4 nights in a row. Even if we pretend that March 13th's Lights were flares, that leaves 3 previous nights of unanswered UFO sightings that don't seem to matter in the scheme of things which brings me to the point I want to make sure I'm clear about. I have never felt the need to dismiss the 8:30 sightings - evidence or not, nor to hog the "glamor" surrounding the 10:00 pm event. For some reason you and others feel that the only way to get to the truth of the earlier sighting is to invalidate the later one. One day someone will write a book on the politics of this sighting.
edit on 15-1-2013 by sbjazzman because: Cirrection





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