UK risks 'turning inwards' over EU referendum - US official

Originally posted by tdk84

Originally posted by merkins
reply to post by tdk84

 

People need to look at the facts instead of bigotry against Europe. I'm not saying the E.U is perfect, far from it and massive reforms need to happen, but you need solid reason to leave and as it is now, we need Europe.

But that is the probem. The EU will never reform in any meaningful way. It will just get worse as time goes by.

The institution isn't there for the benefit of the people of europe but to economially fleece the population, and help corporations. More regulation kills small business and aids big business. More taxes crucify people financially, and lets not forget the stunningly high direct cost of the unelected EU.

Additionally membership of the EU has caused a massive immigration problem of people from poorer countries coming here and draining the society of wealth. And that doesnt make me a biggot or xenophobe. I'd much prefer it if every single Euroean economic migrant was kicked out and replaced by starving or persecuted Africans.

Yes they will, they will be forced too and its already starting. The Germans for one are starting to realise they picked the wrong side as there worst fears of joining the E.U. come to light... France made the wrong moves.

They are now panicking that we will leave as it will solely leave them as the backbone.

Even today you here the news flooding out www.bbc.co.uk... www.guardian.co.uk...

If we play it right we can lead at the forefront with Germany, this fear they have is perfect for negotiations.

People knocked it in the past because of who he is, but if Blair made it in the E.U. it would mean big improvements for the UK.

Your right in terms of the immigration issues etc, but your talking about things that can be tweaked. The fundamentals that these laws bring are sound, it just needs reforming.

edit on 11-1-2013 by tdk84 because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-1-2013 by tdk84 because: (no reason given)

The thing is though we don't want to "lead at the forefront with Germany" we want out of it completely. If this was really a democracy(it isn't) then we would get a referendum.

Also, Blair? now you're just being silly, that corrupt scumbags only interests was lining his own pocket.

I have never voted in my life and I am now 44 years old. I have never voted because not one of those in power deserved my vote. I found not one of them trustworthy or truthful.

But I will vote against the EU if given the chance.

Mind your own * business, Obarmy!

Originally posted by Gazmeister

Originally posted by tdk84

Originally posted by merkins
reply to post by tdk84

 

People need to look at the facts instead of bigotry against Europe. I'm not saying the E.U is perfect, far from it and massive reforms need to happen, but you need solid reason to leave and as it is now, we need Europe.

But that is the probem. The EU will never reform in any meaningful way. It will just get worse as time goes by.

The institution isn't there for the benefit of the people of europe but to economially fleece the population, and help corporations. More regulation kills small business and aids big business. More taxes crucify people financially, and lets not forget the stunningly high direct cost of the unelected EU.

Additionally membership of the EU has caused a massive immigration problem of people from poorer countries coming here and draining the society of wealth. And that doesnt make me a biggot or xenophobe. I'd much prefer it if every single Euroean economic migrant was kicked out and replaced by starving or persecuted Africans.

Yes they will, they will be forced too and its already starting. The Germans for one are starting to realise they picked the wrong side as there worst fears of joining the E.U. come to light... France made the wrong moves.

They are now panicking that we will leave as it will solely leave them as the backbone.

Even today you here the news flooding out www.bbc.co.uk... www.guardian.co.uk...

If we play it right we can lead at the forefront with Germany, this fear they have is perfect for negotiations.

People knocked it in the past because of who he is, but if Blair made it in the E.U. it would mean big improvements for the UK.

Your right in terms of the immigration issues etc, but your talking about things that can be tweaked. The fundamentals that these laws bring are sound, it just needs reforming.

edit on 11-1-2013 by tdk84 because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-1-2013 by tdk84 because: (no reason given)

The thing is though we don't want to "lead at the forefront with Germany" we want out of it completely. If this was really a democracy(it isn't) then we would get a referendum.

Also, Blair? now you're just being silly, that corrupt scumbags only interests was lining his own pocket.

edit on 11/1/13 by Gazmeister because: (no reason given)

edit on 11/1/13 by Gazmeister because: (no reason given)

We don't want out completely, its obvious there threatening too to get more control. I've stated massive advantages to being in and if you only listen to one it should be because of FDI. Without the EU, bye bye FDI.

They should have a solid public inquiry to prove why we should stay of if need be, leave. Its far too important to be made on the unqualified.

you can read more here www.hm-treasury.gov.uk...

Inspite saying that although no nation has had a referendum on leaving the E.U. we did have one on the EEC; 67.2% agreed to stay. Its happened before so you might get your wish.

Originally posted by TheMindWar
I have never voted in my life and I am now 44 years old. I have never voted because not one of those in power deserved my vote. I found not one of them trustworthy or truthful.

But I will vote against the EU if given the chance.

If you can't be bothered to vote then, frankly, who cares what you think either way? You are not assisting with that attitude. It is no good spouting beliefs and then not having the convictions to follow through on them (by actually voting).

If you don't vote, you have no chance of affecting change. If you don't vote, you are denying the country one of the main aspects of your citizenship. It is a completely irresponsible position. Even a spoiled ballot actually registers disapproval. Not voting registers nothing - it is an asinine position.

Sorry if that feels personal but that is genuinely how i feel about that particular issue. It isn't aimed solely at you, more at everyone that doesn't bother to vote. If you can't be bothered to vote, i can't be bothered to listen to your political opinions..........

I'd love to know your reasons for people wanting to leave the E.U. real reasons and disadvantages that you perceive.

I can't blame people for not voting, the system is so messed up its almost a vindication of the whole fraud ridden edifice no matter who you cast your vote for.

Reasons to leave the EU.
No more unelected council of ministers writing up laws.
No EU type approval nonsense killing the UK motorcycle scene.
No more bus loads of legal migrants depressing wages for UK workers on a massive scale.
No more idiotic fishing regulations.
No more British jobs on ships getting lost to former eastern block countries on British flagged ships.
13 billion a year that could maybe pay for kids to go to university.
The list goes on.
Sure, it won't all be roses, but on balance I think we are better off out.

I see Heseltine's getting his two penn'orth in now.

No way will we get that referendum.

Another defeat for democracy by the so-called 'democratic' west.

NWO 1 - Britons 0

Well if UK does leave the UK look for them to form some type of treaty with Canada and the US.

reply to post by Max_TO


It's the US that's telling us to stay in the EU.

Like they say over there...

Go figure.

Link
The link is to a story in Sky News About George Osborne warning the EU they must change or we will quit the EU.
Germany have said it would be a disaster for the UK if we leave, I translate that to mean they need our money. The German people won't take it if they have to pay more to cover what's not coming from the UK.

Cameron claims Obama supported his approach to this. Cameron will spell out his position in a speech later this month.
I believe but I could be wrong, the referendum will be promised for after the next election. It's another trick to get people to vote for them, will the people fall for it again?

Originally posted by SprocketUK
I can't blame people for not voting, the system is so messed up its almost a vindication of the whole fraud ridden edifice no matter who you cast your vote for.

Reasons to leave the EU.
No more unelected council of ministers writing up laws.
No EU type approval nonsense killing the UK motorcycle scene.
No more bus loads of legal migrants depressing wages for UK workers on a massive scale.
No more idiotic fishing regulations.
No more British jobs on ships getting lost to former eastern block countries on British flagged ships.
13 billion a year that could maybe pay for kids to go to university.
The list goes on.
Sure, it won't all be roses, but on balance I think we are better off out.

I don't see any of that as reason to leave, these are mostly small things that can be resolved in the greater scheme of things.

Your best point is about migrants but that's not a UK exclusive problem. Immigration laws will be tweaked and lets not forget the millions of jobs it creates, around 3.5 million of them due to being a member.

Your costing of 13 billion is another good reason but again if you look at the bigger picture i.e. Exports to other EU countries account for 51 per cent of the UK’s exports of goods and services mostly from FDI business because were in the E.U. not to mention the £25 billion increase in GDP.

unelected council of ministers writing up laws is another good point, but again, the E.U is young, changes need happening and will happen. its another issue that can be tweaked and resolved.

Originally posted by LEL01
Link
The link is to a story in Sky News About George Osborne warning the EU they must change or we will quit the EU.
Germany have said it would be a disaster for the UK if we leave, I translate that to mean they need our money. The German people won't take it if they have to pay more to cover what's not coming from the UK.

Cameron claims Obama supported his approach to this. Cameron will spell out his position in a speech later this month.
I believe but I could be wrong, the referendum will be promised for after the next election. It's another trick to get people to vote for them, will the people fall for it again?

Defo looks like the Germans are panicking, this is a perfect time to negotiate and get some of the changes we want in the E.U

www.guardian.co.uk...

"I think we're better off in the European Union," Cameron said. "We're a trading nation so we need to be in the single market, not just selling goods to Europe but having a seat round the table saying what those rules are. But I'm not happy and the British public isn't happy with every aspect of our relationship now.

Even cameron see the importance of UK trade within the E.U.

He said: "I think the beating heart of Britain, as it were, is that we know we need to be in Europe because we're a trading nation, these are our neighbours, these are friendly countries we should be co-operating and working with, but we're not happy with every aspect of the relationship at the moment – there's too much interference, too much bossiness from Brussels. We need to deal with that, make sure that powers can flow backwards as well as the other direction.

And again, fighting for more powers and negotiating

reply to post by tdk84


Jobs isnt soley about migrants, in shipping the eu regs allow companies to sidestep the flag of origin rules so that british and german vessels can hire foreign crews.
Fishing hasn't been resolved in 50 years nor has the lack of democratic accountability in the eu.

As for trade, that really is something that will sort itself out. We can trade with Europe, the Commonwealth and maybe even buy British more often.

Our membership hasnt bought us any benefits that we couldn't have got elsewhere as far as I can see.

Originally posted by SprocketUK
reply to post by tdk84

 

As for trade, that really is something that will sort itself out. We can trade with Europe, the Commonwealth and maybe even buy British more often.

Our membership hasnt bought us any benefits that we couldn't have got elsewhere as far as I can see.

FDI trade in the UK, is massive. The whole reason they come to us is because were in the E.U. That trade is incapable of fixing itself. They will simply leave and set-up HQ elsewhere losing millions of jobs, not to mention GDP.

But I agree, we would survive leaving the E.U, it would be tough, but why survive when you can have so much more?

Camerons E.U talk this month will be interesting...

www.bbc.co.uk...

seem obvious he's just negotiating for changes, he has no interest in leaving. This is exactly what happened with the EEC. get brownie points from the public by issuing a referendum after negotiating favourable terms and educating them of its benefits. Win win situation.

He's making his speech this Friday, so not long to wait for that now. It sounds like we will get a yes/no referendum on the changes but he has to get the EU to agree to it first. They already accused him of trying to blackmail them, that was in my link.

I heard on Sky news last night talk of Germany regretting siding with France because the French have made some big mistakes, I didn't hear them say what those mistakes were. I'm thinking it might be that the French people voted in the wrong party in their (EU) opinion, I could be wrong about that.

Originally posted by LEL01
I heard on Sky news last night talk of Germany regretting siding with France because the French have made some big mistakes, I didn't hear them say what those mistakes were. I'm thinking it might be that the French people voted in the wrong party in their (EU) opinion, I could be wrong about that.

Yeah they been talking about that a lot recently. France made some stupid decisions

I've been harping on about FDI and free trade...

The last topic where the Germans offer Tory Eurosceptics cold comfort is on their idea that Britain, even if it actually left the EU, could negotiate the same type of free trade arrangement with it that Norway or Switzerland have.

It didn't occur to me that we could just have third party agreements made, like how Japan, Norway and Switzerland has.

That means that 50% of the worries I had about leaving the E.U. are void. Although there are still some obvious advantages but far from do or die.

There will be a referendum if there's a transfer of powers from Westminster to Brussels but there are a lot of E.U countries who obviously don't want that to happen.

reply to post by tdk84

Do you have any idea what the mistakes are that they're saying France has made? I'm clueless as to what they're talking about so I don't even know what to look for to find out.

My concerns about leaving but going back to a trade agreement which is what we voted for in 1975 (not me) is that they still have a certain amount of control over us. We would still have the farming and fishing regulations, we really need to be in control of our own food supplies.

I know the other 26 countries won't want us to leave because of the money we pay into it but I'm sure there must be people in all of those countries who also don't want to be part of it.
I can't see why we can't be in control of our own countries but stand together if/when we are in trouble or under threat.

We can all talk about supposed benefits of membership (though I haven't noticed too many during the last 40 years), but the fact is this is a political union, not simply a trade agreement.

That means we will lose our sovereignty and become a mere state within a federation of states, ruled remotely out of Brussels.

This hasn't fully happened yet, but it will.

We will lose our miles and have to accept kilometres (again, not happened yet but will).

Also, something perhaps not given too much thought by most people, but we could conceivably lose our language; most of us just assume it will be English because of US influence, though, with Germany at the helm, it could be German - there are actually more German-speakers in Europe than any other language.

Say the eurocrats in Brussels decide on German as the official language.

That means all official correspondence would have to be in German. Yes, we'd carry on speaking English, but would have to learn German....good enough to read and write it.

All letters, emails...

Good, eh?

Not to mention many other types of interference in our everyday lives, as the EU strives to standardise life within the federation.

I have already noticed a lot more paperwork in my job, a lot more bureaucracy.

This will only get worse.

Oh, and we will completely lose control of our borders (if you think the New Labour years were bad, you aint seen nothing yet, kid).

This is just a taste of what's in store for us if we blindly swallow the soundbites and remain members of a club we never signed up for in the first place.