*Reality Check Video* Ben Swann breaks down Piers Morgan's UK vs US violence rate.

Given one of the most popular excuses given by our gun grabber, UK liberals is alcohol abuse it sounds to me like the UK needs to ban all alcoholic drinks immediately.

Apparently drinking leads to all kinds of crimes and acts of violence, especially sexual assaults so if we get rid of the pints the UK will be even safer than it already is, right?

Or, maybe they should just put more control over who is allowed to drink with background checks for prior crimes, DUI / drinking related offenses.

See how easy it is to justify imposing on the rights of a majority of innocent people by using the acts of a few?

And, just like our UK posters I can be completely selfish and hypocritical in calling for the banning of all alcoholic drinking because I rarely drink and wouldn't care or be affected by such a ban in any way. Not to mention I don't live in the UK so any loss of freedom they experience I can freely cheer on and argue for without any sense of responsibility or concern...

Originally posted by ecoparity
Given one of the most popular excuses given by our gun grabber, UK liberals is alcohol abuse it sounds to me like the UK needs to ban all alcoholic drinks immediately.

Apparently drinking leads to all kinds of crimes and acts of violence, especially sexual assaults so if we get rid of the pints the UK will be even safer than it already is, right?

Or, maybe they should just put more control over who is allowed to drink with background checks for prior crimes, DUI / drinking related offenses.

See how easy it is to justify imposing on the rights of a majority of innocent people by using the acts of a few?

And, just like our UK posters I can be completely selfish and hypocritical in calling for the banning of all alcoholic drinking because I rarely drink and wouldn't care or be affected by such a ban in any way. Not to mention I don't live in the UK so any loss of freedom they experience I can freely cheer on and argue for without any sense of responsibility or concern...

Well guess what a drink ban would bother me as I don't drink alcohol , but lets have a rethink didn't the USA ban alcohol at one point and there was no violence then

reply to post by wmd_2008


Exactly, prohibition does not work. Not for alcohol, drugs or guns.

Thanks for proving my point.

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by wmd_2008

 

Exactly, prohibition does not work. Not for alcohol, drugs or guns.

Thanks for proving my point.

Yes and the gun death rate in the USA is in line with ownership of guns MORE GUNS, MORE GUN deaths back to you

Originally posted by wmd_2008

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by wmd_2008

 

Exactly, prohibition does not work. Not for alcohol, drugs or guns.

Thanks for proving my point.

Yes and the gun death rate in the USA is in line with ownership of guns MORE GUNS, MORE GUN deaths back to you

no its not.

reply to post by Wongbeedman


Hobby?

Do you even know the second amendment?



Comments like yours make you seem very irrelevant to this conversation.

No you can't murder anyone you please. What kind of emotional response is that?

You commit a crime, you murder somebody, you pay the price. MURDER can happen with any amount of items. Stats prove hammers and hands and feet cause more deaths than guns yet you want to keep arguing that guns are the bane of society. STOP being EMOTIONAL. START being RATIONAL.

As for South Africa, I ignored you because you were making things up. Every time you see something you disagree with you say it is stupid and how its false. Bring the numbers.

You constantly go off topic and attack the gun culture, the nation, the people who practice safe gun usage and ownership and you don't even understand the second amendment. Why is that? I wonder...

Originally posted by paulmac
The discussion between Piers and Alex is regarding gun crime. So lets not try muddying the waters with violent crime and lets stick to the point of the argument.

You make the UK sound like its ravaged by shoot outs when the figures for england and wales according to the guardian newspaper are that per 100,000 head of population there are 0.07 gun related homicides in england and wales. In the US per 100,000 there are 2.97 gun related homicides.

www.guardian.co.uk...

So in the US you are 42 times more likely to be shot dead than in England,

We still use Long bows here

edit on 10-1-2013 by paulmac because: (no reason given)

edit on 10-1-2013 by paulmac because: (no reason given)

Ohhhh you think its that simple now.

Over 70% of gun deaths are gang related. Do you think criminals and gangsters get their guns legally?

reply to post by eLPresidente


fox is balanced?

No law is going to stamp out the 2nd amendment even if they completely outlaw all guns and burn the Constitution. Gun shops will be handing guns out for free. What a dishonor to all those who gave their lives protecting our freedom and rights. What a shame so many eager to give up their rights to bear arms. You're better off dead then living in a tyrannical hell.

Originally posted by wmd_2008

Originally posted by ecoparity
reply to post by wmd_2008

 

Exactly, prohibition does not work. Not for alcohol, drugs or guns.

Thanks for proving my point.

Yes and the gun death rate in the USA is in line with ownership of guns MORE GUNS, MORE GUN deaths back to you

Sorry for getting in your discussion here but seriously it's just ridiculous to discuss numbers of gun deaths when there is so many factors. There is 300 million people in the US. With such a large population you could come up with any off the wall statistics. Like how many people choke to death while eating McDonalds cheeseburgers.

Im from England and I can tell you its not a nice place to live.

Because you cant defend yourself thugs have little to be scared of. They can knock on your door or anything.

Unlike many other countries, you cant own a shotgun FOR SELF DEFENCE, you can only own one if you can demonstrate that you have an interest in the sport of clay pigeon shooting. Straight off theres the deceipt, everyone is lying, and getting shotguns pretending they are interested in the sport.

Also, you go to jail if you defend yourself with a gun.

The reason I think America should keep guns is because you need them to defend against a corrupt government. Im not implying that your current government is corrupt, but in the UK they pretty much are. They certainly cant be trusted and theres nothign we can do about it. And they are stripping more and more freedoms away from us day by day.

I often say that if we had guns we would have revolted already. But we cant.

Guns are not the problem, its people. Society is lazy and decayed. People no longer care about decent society. They have no manners and are rude. Its the breed of people we create. Its a reflection of us. Banning guns is like sewing up your teenagers mouth because he swears alot. He is still insolent, rude and troublesome, but you have stopped the swearing, however you have not stopped the cancer of hate and angst that dwells in him.

My point is that guns are a check valve, and people explode, and we learn. All we have done in the UK is bandage over the wound so you cant see the blood, but the wounds are still there and they rot and go gangreen. People stew at home, they have the same angst and hate as before, but now they dont have the release valve. So now they silently infect everything around them to a far deeper degree through social malise and discord.

What im saying might sound pathetic, but I think its fairly accurate of how Britain is.

In england we pretty much have a totalitarin govt. You might be able to laugh at that, but we have NO CHOICE. There is no scope for revolution or a change of government. Throughout history our people have revolted to overthrow evil govts. The French did it in 1789, we did it in 1688 and before. People have a history of rebelling to overthrow tyranny. BUT WE CANT DO THAT NOW. The club in the hand of the govt is to big.

You cant even plot to conspire. They tap every telephone call and email. Its all traceable. They have shut down all the pubs and made smoking illegal, places where revolution would spark. You cants make explosives or build weapons. Im not saying we WANT TO , but as a matter of fact WE CANT.

Currently, you have that check. You have guns. You can close your windows and dorrs, say no, and hold your ground. That is worth twice the unjustifiable murders you get, its worth 10 times that. They are essentially DISARMING YOU. Simple as that.

Once you have lost your guns, the moment you try to get them back they will call you a terrorist.

Our governments are out of control, and nothing is going to stop them other than a general collapse in society such as the Roman Empire. We do not have the power to overthrow them, which means that bit by bit everythig will become illegal. It will soon be illegal to make a profit in business as your taking someone elses earnings. Sound pathetic? Lets see what another 100 years of government limitations on our freedoms brings about.

Sorry for rant but no matter how many are killed, you need your guns. Further, gun control just moves the angst and social cancer along the line such that it doesnt become so obvious. Its still there, and it will just infect society is deeper more pervasive ways effecting more people in ways they dont understand or percive.

For every Adam Lanza there are 1000 hobos and pan handlers. They'd all love to go on a rampage but they dont because they dont want to kill people, but they have the same angst. They just deal with it properly.

The government is the problem. I have begun to think of them as a cult. The cult of government. they have their beleivers and non believers. Guess what happens to the non beleivers.

I dont know why i bother really, ATS sucks donkeys nuts, me me me me.

Sources? How is your definition of violence so much broader, etc? Because I'm pretty sure violent crime is any sort of violence that is reported to the police. Please show us how you come to this conclusion.

According to your own papers:
www.thesun.co.uk...

"We also suffer more violence than people in the US or even SOUTH AFRICA, figures show.

A shocking 2,034 per 100,000 people suffer violent crime in the UK, compared to 466 in America and 1,609 in troublespot South Africa.

Britain’s damning figures far outstrip those of second-worst EU country — Austria, with 1,677 violent crimes per 100,000 people.

And the UK rate has increased by a shocking 77 per cent since 1998.
"

Stop talking out your ass like you know something when you clearly have zero clue about the world, except how to lie to people from a position of false-authority.

I have a relatives over in Bradford and Manchester and they have told me on a regular basis when I visit that violent crime is quite high as compared to 20 or 30 years ago; you don't walk home alone at night anymore. My cousin was recently attacked and robbed walking home from the pub about 4 months ago in Bradford. He was stabbed, thrown to the ground and kicked and punched by a gang of about 6 "youths" and had his wallet stolen which contained about 10 pound. The stab wounds were very shallow and he recovered. His attack and many others go unreported because there's a media blackout on "asian vs white" crimes in England. My uncle is a retired police sergeant who worked for many years up until 2008 in the city of Bradford and showed me a binder full of attacks by groups of teenagers aging from 7 to 18 years old. Many were released on bail after committing multiple violent crimes. I am told by him that guns are available to anyone who goes looking for them in the same places one would go look to buy heroin. The streets are especially flooded with Russian made Makarov pistols and can be purchased on the street for about 300 to 600 pound.

The countryside in Britain is gorgeous, but you couldn't pay me to live in a city like Bradford unless I could CCW in the very least a small .38.

Not wanting to sound too boring but i went to the gym to tone up my 1 pack and was reflecting on the US constitution which I know by heart being English and realised that it says its not a right but a DUTY of American citizens to overthrow a tyranical governemnt.

As such its your DUTY. My point being, are you up for that (you in the general sense)? And moreover, are you equipped.

So, PROOF that you need guns. In fact, when the constitution was written such that it was your right to form malitias to carry out your duty to resist tyranny it assumed that a millitia could resist the force of tyranny. But you cant, your not equipped. The government now has tanks and machine guins and aircraft.

THEREFORE - I see it as your duty as a citizen to request from the government the tools to carry out your duty and for the governemnt to ensure that every citizen has access to belt fed heavy machine guns, anti tank rifles, surface to air missiles, satelite communications, and a whole array of advanced weaponry. That makes sense because otherwise you, the citizen, are not equiped to carry out your duty.

I actually think I have a valid point. I also think the right to bear arms was more about in the like of a tyranical government as opposed to your home being invaded.

Apologise if this is the English thread and not one of the other 20 anti gun type threads, but I am English living in exile in the US from an evil tyranical British Governemnt that I can stop from destroying my life and burgling my home whenever they want to.

Originally posted by eLPresidente





You commit a crime, you murder somebody, you pay the price. MURDER can happen with any amount of items. Stats prove hammers and hands and feet cause more deaths than guns yet you want to keep arguing that guns are the bane of society. STOP being EMOTIONAL. START being RATIONAL.

Official figs for 2011 MURDERS in USA 14,612 over 8500 were gun related so what you claim is wrong!

Originally posted by sean

Sorry for getting in your discussion here but seriously it's just ridiculous to discuss numbers of gun deaths when there is so many factors. There is 300 million people in the US. With such a large population you could come up with any off the wall statistics. Like how many people choke to death while eating McDonalds cheeseburgers.

No problem with that as that's what we are all on here for!

USA has 5 times the population of the UK 311m v 62.5 m

2011 Murders USA 14,612 UK 564 or 25.9 times as many murders in the USA
Gun deaths 8583 in the UK 58 or 148 times more gun deaths in the USA

Way out of proportion with population figures, also what is classed as a violent crime over here in the UK may not be classed as violent in other countries as always apples with apples.

Now before anyone else pipes in with most of the gun deaths in the USA are gang related we have gangs in the UK and lots of them have guns and if they are happy to keep shooting each other good luck to them as long as no innocent people are killed.

Originally posted by thoughtfuldeliquent




Sources? How is your definition of violence so much broader, etc? Because I'm pretty sure violent crime is any sort of violence that is reported to the police. Please show us how you come to this conclusion.

According to your own papers:
www.thesun.co.uk...

"We also suffer more violence than people in the US or even SOUTH AFRICA, figures show.

A shocking 2,034 per 100,000 people suffer violent crime in the UK, compared to 466 in America and 1,609 in troublespot South Africa.

Britain’s damning figures far outstrip those of second-worst EU country — Austria, with 1,677 violent crimes per 100,000 people.

And the UK rate has increased by a shocking 77 per cent since 1998.
"

Stop talking out your ass like you know something when you clearly have zero clue about the world, except how to lie to people from a position of false-authority.

edit on Thu Jan 10 2013 by DontTreadOnMe because: IMPORTANT: Using Content From Other Websites on ATS

Sensationalist tabloid trash. They sell papers on scaring people without fact checking dontchaknow? My source would be the criminology and criminology segments of the forensic science course I stuided at College and other than that I'm not trawling through the Internet to find papers on UK Met reporting practices.

Think about it for a moment, are you really suggesting that the UK is more violent than South Africa?

Originally posted by eLPresidente




No you can't murder anyone you please. What kind of emotional response is that?

You commit a crime, you murder somebody, you pay the price. MURDER can happen with any amount of items. Stats prove hammers and hands and feet cause more deaths than guns yet you want to keep arguing that guns are the bane of society. STOP being EMOTIONAL. START being RATIONAL.

As for South Africa, I ignored you because you were making things up. Every time you see something you disagree with you say it is stupid and how its false. Bring the numbers.

You constantly go off topic and attack the gun culture, the nation, the people who practice safe gun usage and ownership and you don't even understand the second amendment. Why is that? I wonder...

edit on 10-1-2013 by eLPresidente because: (no reason given)

Yes you can murder anyone you like. I mean, sure you won't get away with it, but with very little stopping you, you can just walk up to anyone in the street and shoot them in the face. Shooting is easy, can be done at a distance and impersonal, it's easier to do than stabbing them both physically and emotionally. There simply isn't a replacement tool as efficient and distancing as a murder weapon as a gun, which is why in the UK people don't go into schools and start dicing up children with kitchen appliances like America does bi-yearly with guns.

As a study of history, I do actually understand the second amendment, what it suggests, what use it used to hold and what it sadly entails for American people today. Okay, murder can happen anywhere at any time, but even if guns weren't used for those murders 4x as many people in the US are murdered every year. Why is that? Is murder simply engrained into the American conscience?

You realise that America also exports its guncrime? Due to your poor border control and lax gun laws, just about every illegal firearm we have here was manufactured in and smuggled over from the USA. Thanks for that.

I have categorically and undeniably disposed of every half truth and misinterpretation you have disgraced this forum with, and South Africa was backed up with numbers which I will reiterate for you.

www.news24.com...

en.wikipedia.org...-sacrime-14

They actually have a murder rate of 31.2 people per 100,000 compared to the UK's 1.2 meaning South Africai s 26x more murderous. What you expect to see from a country which has 1.6k actual crimed which involve people being harmed or assaulted per 100,000. Our murder rate is still 4x lower than Americas third-world esque 4.8.

Are you still sticking with the idea that the UK is more violent than South Africa? Or are you ready to drop this silly comparrison and readily accept what's clearly before you - that this is simply down to differences in reporting and the UK ain't that bad despite what the tabloids, and the agrophobic tinfoil hatted neckbeards will tell you.

I would also refer you to the links provided in my later post which irrefutably show the reporting differences and I welcome you to argue against information stated in plain English on the FBI and Homeoffice websites.

Originally posted by buster2010
reply to post by sajuek

 

As for UK being the second most violent country in the Union, it's total nonsense. Please keep in mind that the Union includes countries which include Italy, Spain, Greece, Poland, Romania all of whom have very corrupt police forces and under-reporting of crimes is a serious issue as well as again, reporting methods being very different.

The countries you are talking about doesn't even make the list.

Quoting UN statistics, in 2011 the US had a murder rate of 4.8 people per 100,000 persons. The UK had a murder rate of 1.2 people per 100,000 persons, four times less. How Americans seem to think they have ground to stand on when arguing that the UK, let alone other anti-gun owning states in the EU are less safe is simply laughable.

Let the citizens of the UK have the right to bare arms and then come back with that lame argument. The fact remains that the UK has more violent crime than America. Live with it.

Wait, so your proof that these violent and corrupt countries which under report their crime are infact not violent, corrupt or under reporting their crime is that they don't show up on some top 10 table you found on the Internet based on statistics these countries provided?

Think about it...

And what sorry is lame about pointing out AmericaS third world murder rate, which stands at 4x the UK's? Could you explain that away for me please?

We did have the right to bear arms, we gave them up because we didn't want them and our society is better without them.

The "fact does not remain" as it was never a fact to begin with which you've done nothing to show other than reiterate the same bloated information from the same source which has already been explained to outsiders why it's anomolous.

I won't however argue with the individual rankings given at the bottom of the page, apart from robbery which is massively under reported in Italy, Spain, Greece and other places as the police never do anything about it. All that attests to is how very safe Europe (Also who are not armed) in fact actually is. That there are 12 countries in the EU with a murder rate even lower than the UK's speaks volumes of our achievements towards harmony as an gun-free, unified European Union.

As already mentioned, what constitutes a "violent crime" is massively open to dispute and in the UK it does not solely include person to peron violence as most countries, which includes the US, does. It's also things like vandalism, breaking a bottle in the street, behaving in a threatening manner. Just to cite 2 excellent links provided earlier in the thread which irrefutably prove my point and I encourage someone to challenge them.

The US considers only 4 crimes as violent crimes as stated here:

www2.fbi.gov...

"In the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program, violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault."

The UK however, ALL of these under these found in the relevant PDFs on this page:

www.homeoffice.gov.uk...

Checkmate.