A logical problem with "Hell": Part 2

I dont know if anyone watched the vid I posted, for some reason I can never embed videos here. The points I would like to make are:
1) God made people immortal
2) People who dont want God in thier life want to be God themselves. So God puts these gods in their own universe, one of thier own making. Of course they cant really make anything out of nothing themselves (that is not God's fault, he never designed humans to be able to create out of nothing), so they exist there in darkness in a world of thier own making.
3) The things they dont like about themselves now will just get worse over eternity, so they end up being consumed by these things (hate, jealousy, pride, apathy, etc.)
4) So God doesn't dangle people over flames and threaten to throw them in if they dont obey him, He actually gives them what they want.
5) Many are decieved by the belief that they are gods themselves and can create thier own reality. Good luck to them.
6) Jesus came to save you from yourself (the ugly bits of your self which will consume you if you are left alone for eternity).

reply to post by Akragon


YES!!!!! thank you! i have been wondering that for quite some time now but i could never put it into words!!!!

Although I do not know what hell looks like and how exactly it is manifested, I can personally see the logic and need for it and do believe in its existence, as much as there is a heaven. The journey that we call life is not preprogrammed or predetermined, thus the concept of free will. Certainly, an omnipotent entity such as the Christian God is capable of shaping the past, present, and future, being a force that can transcend such preconceived boundaries. But it doesn’t necessarily mean God will use such abilities to manipulate everyone’s future.

If in fact God gave mankind free will – the freedom to think and act however man chooses to -- then life itself is a work in progress, wherein a person decides how to constantly deal with everyday random encounters and occurrences – until the day that he or she dies. Although I do believe that mankind is basically good by nature, I also believe in the neutrality of life, in which no human on earth can entirely be good, and vice-versa. People sort of “dance” in harmony between the two. Your constant everyday actions will ultimately decide what kind of person you are, and ultimately, what kind of life you lived.

If an all-loving, all-knowing entity such as God knew somebody was going to hell anyway, why bother creating him in the first place, right? The point is, that person was given the chance to live his life the way he chose to. Preventing that person from ever being born as to avoid his eternal damnation defies the logic behind the abstract nature of life and even the purpose of creation (by intelligent design) itself.

What would be the point and meaning of life if we all lived like preprogrammed goody-two-shoes, capable of only smiling and doing nice things? I could say the same if we were all chaotic, violent immoral creatures. Life isn't uniquely beautiful because it is all about smiles and laughter – it's because we also experience how it is to feel sorrow, pain, and anguish that we realize the true essence of living. Personally, the same can be said about heaven and hell. If a person chooses to live a chaotic and immoral life, then it does make sense that there be an appropriate consequence, just like there is a manifesting result, whether beneficial or not, to each and every decision that all of us make in our day-to-day routine. I think of it like a cosmic karma of sorts, ultimately bestowed upon each and every one of us, depending on how we played out our lives.

Originally posted by Cinrad
I dont know if anyone watched the vid I posted, for some reason I can never embed videos here. The points I would like to make are:
1) God made people immortal
2) People who dont want God in thier life want to be God themselves. So God puts these gods in their own universe, one of thier own making. Of course they cant really make anything out of nothing themselves (that is not God's fault, he never designed humans to be able to create out of nothing), so they exist there in darkness in a world of thier own making.
3) The things they dont like about themselves now will just get worse over eternity, so they end up being consumed by these things (hate, jealousy, pride, apathy, etc.)
4) So God doesn't dangle people over flames and threaten to throw them in if they dont obey him, He actually gives them what they want.
5) Many are decieved by the belief that they are gods themselves and can create thier own reality. Good luck to them.
6) Jesus came to save you from yourself (the ugly bits of your self which will consume you if you are left alone for eternity).

Sounds like buddhism, but I totally agree that it's, probably, the way how our world is like.

If the devil is god's enemy then if you are bad and hate god then the devil is your buddy. So in hell it should be a big party. The way it is worded it seems the devil is working for god and torturing people because god said so.
If you look in the margins of some bibles they describe hell as the grave.

reply to post by Akragon

Should I forgive this so called God? One that asks the blood sacrifice of animals? One that commands his followers to destroy and murder others? And will even go so far as to demand women and children to be put to the sword... all for the sake of his own pride and jealousy?

Who are you to "forgive" Our Creator? You are but a creation of Our Creator who succumbs to the very same height of folly as demonstrated by those from Adam to the executioners of Jesus. Your first question shouts loud and clear your rebellious spirit....it says "I WILL be like the Most High". What led Adam to disobey God's direct command to not eat of that particular fruit? Was it not the desires resulting from the serpent's promises, the inequity found within him? It is only from the rebellious spirit that you could reason away that God is anything but good and truth. Did Adam not do the same? It was all about Adam's will....not about God's will. What Adam wanted.....what the creation wanted....what you want....those internal thoughts do not conform to God's Truth because they are too busy justifying their own desires. The lie that Our God's "pride and jeolousy" caused the killings in scripture is believed by you because it allows you to remain in the darkness. The truth of the matter is that the inequity within man reached it's culmination. As stated to Abraham, it would take nearly 400 years for the Amorites to reach that point. Four hundred years that society had to amend their ways...to prevent their destruction. "Pride and jeolousy" has zero to do with it - but rather four hundred years of patience and long suffering by Our Creator as He watches his creation keep choosing the same erroneous path, that of believing that they can define their own good and evil and reap anything but misery and death. He watches us descend from man made in His image and likeness to beast like creatures who's highest thought is pleasure, He watches as those desires for pleasure lead to a population who continually do evil thinking that their practices are good. He watches His creation value sex so highly that they can reason away the slaughter of the unborn children as anything but what it is - murder. He watches His creation reason away His truth as lies and exalt their lies as truth.

Everything that Adam lost in his fall was regained by the second Adam - Jesus Christ. Throughout the gospels Jesus kept asking "Why do you reason..." . He was merely pointing out the fallacy of our own reasoning that leads us to conclude falsifies as truth. Here was Truth personified standing before the creation and the creation made it's choice - they crucified the Truth. They would rather have the murderer and insurrectionist released than the one who is Life and the way. The Bible is Our God's message to humanity and His tool to bring your mind and heart back into conformity with Him. Instead of seeing Him as "proud and jeolous" He would show you that those are the negative qualities of man which result in our own destruction. Arrogant men who'd rather think that God "needs forgiving" reason away their own salvation. They are consumed with the same inequity found in Adam..."I WILL BE like the Most High". And tragically, God's Truth stands - "You will surely die" and yet His creation as in this thread, arrogantly believe that the serpent's lie is truth "You won't die"....

All given to Jesus work out their salvation in fear and trembling. Years of human opinion are stripped out and are shown for the lies that they are. What you find in the process? A God who so loved the world that He stepped into it in order to give His beast like creatures the opportunity to overcome it. You find a Creator that wills all to be saved and you find a creation who has no desire to step into that Light in order to be saved. You find a creation that wants to be the Most High instead of a creation that wants to glorify their Creator. You find a creation actively succumbing to the "meditation" propaganda of today that says just "eat of this fruit" and you'll know that you are "god". And that they are gobbling up the final lie as truth. The lie that seats them as the son of perdition, sitting in the temple of God (the body) believing that they are god.

Your Creator loves us. Your Creator is Truth, just, merciful and good. To reason that away because you have not sought Him, and therefore have not the ability to understand what you read in scripture, is the height of the arrogance of man's thinking. Somehow you are content to believe MAN'S lies as truth - that your Creator is some sort of monster. Choosing that lie as truth condemns you. Choosing that lie as truth prevents you from seeking salvation. Choosing that lie as your truth fulfills scripture which states that those who perish never learned to love the Truth. Your reasoning is faulty. Let Him fix it.

reply to post by Akragon

Everlasting fire has symbolic meaning... Not to be taken literally... Similar to what he said about hell, only when he spoke of "hell" it was a literal meaning... Look up the word Gehenna, it was an actual place where the bodies of the dead who couldn't afford a proper burial were thrown, and they used sulphur to dispose of the material so as not to spread disease. Which is where the fire and "brimstone" idea came from. The fires in Gehenna burned day and night which is where the "eternal fire" came from.

Would this same symbolic meaning include the writings stating that satan is thrown into an everlasting fire? Or were those particular instances not to be considered symbolic?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by natalia

 

Jesus is quoted many times as having mentioned Hell and how we end up there. Are you familiar with such scripture?

Here is one example from Jesus: biblia.com...

reply to post by jhill76

I know of what brother said. But, an assumption is drawn based on logic of man. If he goes into said fire, and it doesn't state he will come out, that must mean he will burn forever. Do not think of it, from the natural point of view.

Let me get this straight. My interpretation, so far as interpretation was required, is invalid on the grounds that since the obvious wasn't actually stated, the possibility of the equally unstated must be taken into equal consideration despite supporting text from the same source? And since the possibility can be considered, it should be given greater priority over the logical conclusion I provided?

That doesn't make any sense at all. It says "into everlasting fire". It does not say the man will come out. Therefore, logically, the idea lasts indefinitely. The man is in the fire forever because no condition was applied to the action. Please don't make me have to explain it more, I think it's impossible for me to get any clearer.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Jesus was talking about a place like Earth. Everlasting fire doesn't mean being burned by fire literally, it symbolizes all the bad things that happen on this planet. You refuse to believe what the bible says yet you are trying to take it literally here? The bible isn't all literal, lots of it is said in metaphor and parable and that's something you have to understand when you read it.

reply to post by drivers1492


The lake of fire is symbolically talking about Earth. Is it any coincidence that the world has gotten so messed up since the church was established? They are the devil and their version of Jesus is the false prophet and they have been thrown into the lake of their own making. Get it?

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Jesus was talking about a place like Earth. Everlasting fire doesn't mean being burned by fire literally, it symbolizes all the bad things that happen on this planet.

That is YOUR interpretation.

you refuse to believe what the bible says yet you are trying to take it literally here?

I am saying that unless your Bible is taken literally, your great and wonderful truth is nothing but a conglomerate of perceptions, personal truths, and wishes. There is no truth in interpretation, there is only perspective. Interpretation is the same thing as translation, and translation is imperfect.

Your Bible is an imperfect truth. We're supposed to stake our souls on an imperfect truth?

reply to post by AfterInfinity


So you're saying my interpretation doesn't make any sense at all? I think it's pretty simple to understand personally which makes me think you aren't trying to understand, you're just writing it off. What is your interpretation? The literal version? If so, you are not helping in any way your own position.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

So you're saying my interpretation doesn't make any sense at all?

When I read "everlasting fire", I interpret it as"everlasting fire". Burning fire of the flesh or soul that lasts forever. There is no reason to do otherwise. If you have contradictory evidence, please present it and we'll discuss it.

I think it's pretty simple to understand personally which means you aren't trying to understand, you're just writing it off.

See my above request. I am not writing it off, I am waiting for a good reason to consider it.

What is your interpretation? The literal version? If so, you are not helping in any way your own position.

If it is not literal, then you have very little way of knowing for a fact what the metaphor represents. Either way, you have no argument unless you can provide additional scripture proving the intentions of the metaphor.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


No I don't get it. I fail to see the dividing line where you decide this is symbolic and not to be taken literal. I really haven't read anything in the bible that would make me feel this is the case. I could apply the same rationale and say jesus didn't walk on the water it was only a symbolic walking representing his ability to no be constrained by the earth or however you would like to dress it up and make it sound pretty.
From all my reading I get a pretty straightforward message about what one should learn when reading scripture and that is this..... It's not meant to be complicated, it's not meant to be something that takes some deep understanding of the cosmos to glean meaning from. It's meant to say this is what god did, here is what man did, jesus came and said please stop being such a jerk life sucks but there is a prize at the end worth waiting and living for. But, he also points out that there is a crappy place you get to go as well.

Sure I won't argue that there is some symbolic stuff in the bible, what I will argue is that you it requires someone to be enlightened by some magical cosmic knowledge to understand it. I think many people including myself get wrapped up in idea that there is mystical knowledge in the pages when there isn't. It does have some good teachings and moral ethics as well as some distorted ones that a person should differentiate between but common sense should work that out for most. I've looked at it as simply as I could and and deep as I have been able to and have reached my current understanding from that.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Matthew 11

18 "What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off?

Is Jesus saying that people are literally sheep here, wool and all, or is he using a metaphor to get his point across? If you believe it is a metaphor then why would you think everlasting fire is not? Such a place literally is ridiculous, so you have to start thinking of alternative meanings that it could have.

Do you have an alternative meaning for the verse which fits with reality or do you still choose to take it literally without trying to find the hidden meaning? If you look at it literally while at the same time rejecting the literal meaning then you are debating against yourself.

Your mindset of "the bible is completely false no matter what" (correct me if I'm wrong) stops you from finding that hidden meaning within the words.

reply to post by drivers1492


For one, logic should tell you it is not meant to be taken literally. If logic tells you there really is a place where people literally burn forever then that's on you. If logic tells you it doesn't exist then what are you debating?

I'm saying that logic tells me a place like that doesn't exist, so my thoughts are that he meant It symbolically.

Jesus never walked on water or turned water into wine, those are pagan themes that were inserted into the story by Rome in my opinion.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

So if we use logic and say none of the supernatural stuff occurred what exactly are you left with? Using logic that would be what you would do correct? So do we just have a story about a guy who had a bit of a god complex?

The point at which the Bible moves from being literal to metaphor is not agreed upon by Christians so I doubt we can resolve it here :-)

There are parts of the Bible, especially prophetic words, that are considered metaphor until events prove otherwise. Take the reinstitution of the Jewish state in a single day. It was almost universally considered that the time frame was not something to be taken literally until it actually happened.

The thing is, the Bible is sometimes very obviously written in metaphor, sometimes very obviously literal, and often times so incredible that we can not accept it to be a literal statement and we as humans write it off to mean something else.

Personally, I'd rather err on the side of caution and take it at face value if it's a grey area.

reply to post by drivers1492


I wouldn't put it that way exactly, but yes, basically that is right. Jesus never rose from the dead or performed any miracles, he was an average man with above average knowledge on life and its meaning. He was an enlightened soul just as Buddha or Gandhi were. Just because some people came along and diluted the story and added in ridiculous claims doesn't mean the whole thing is bunk.