A logical problem with "Hell": Part 2

Originally posted by LewsTherinThelamon
reply to post by Akragon

 

Brilliantly sad.

I have often argued that, because of God's omniscience, he knew before he created the universe that someday hell would exist.

In fact, he knew before he created the universe that someday I would exist and that I would reject his teachings thereby sealing my fate in hell.

He knew this and still created the universe. So my fate was sealed either way. It cannot be a "choice" on my part if God had prior knowledge of what would take place.

His act of creating the universe set in motion the singular path the cosmos would take to arrive at my birth and eventual damnation. For me to have had free choice, then God would have to have no pre-existing knowledge of the path the universe would take. But, then he would not be omniscient, and if he is not omniscient...he is not God.

The Christian religion is not grounded in logic.

edit on 8-1-2013 by LewsTherinThelamon because: (no reason given)

edit on 8-1-2013 by LewsTherinThelamon because: (no reason given)

Maybe I'm slow, but could you explain to me how somebody knowing what you will choose means it's not your choice? If a psychic predicts what you will do, that somehow means you didn't decide to do it, that somehow the psychic made you do it?

reply to post by Akragon

God does not know the future - God is all seeing, all knowing and EVERPRESENT. God is knowing now, God is not knowing later, God is omni 'present'.
The mind believes it can know the future but only ever projects a future, it makes images of future and lives in the illusion it has projected (this is the son of man). In this projected (imagined) future all sorts of horrors and dramas happen. The mind will keep you awake at night with it's projections, it will torture and torment you with thoughts and fears about tomorrow. This is Hell. Hell is living in another time (mind made). The past and future cannot be 'known' but man can't stop thinking about other times and places.
Right now and right here is Gods 'presence'. God is knowing this which is happening now.


God is not a bad 'person' who is going to punish you for being bad. God is what is seeing these words. God is just pretending that he is a person so he can experience what it feels like to not be God. He wants to experience being lost so he can find himself, it's the game called life.

I think this guy says it all, I pretty much believed this already but saw this 15 minute vid a couple of weeks ago, it was good to have a full explanation of it.

Timothy Keller
Does God Send People To Hell

www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by natalia

 

Jesus is quoted many times as having mentioned Hell and how we end up there. Are you familiar with such scripture?

Not too familiar at all actually. I do know some,or at least one,the first one that popped into my head, and I don't know where it is because I am not a bible scholar,I almost want to say it is in Matthew, but he says something along the lines of if your hand offends thee, cut it off, because it is better to go through life looking like that than to go to hell with two good hands, sorry not exact quote.

But like I said, the bible has been translated so many times over, how do we know that's exactly what he really said, or if the translators had their own agenda? And tweaked what he said into their favor?

I hope I don't sound like a complete dummy, I'm not very smart in this and I guess I should not have responded in the first place since I'm not that knowledgeable on the subject. I just have my opinion and wanted to share.

Increase the peace
-nat

reply to post by natalia


You don't sound like a dummy at all. Thing is, if we're being that skeptical, then what's the point of considering the Bible an authority at all?

reply to post by chrome413

Just because God knows what someone will choose to do does not mean the individual did not still make the choice by their own free will. It would be extremely unfair for God to just send someone directly to Hell without the opportunity to at least make the decision to go there themselves.

But if he is omniscient, that means he knows what choice you will make. He knew your fate when he made the earth.

reply to post by Snsoc

Maybe I'm slow, but could you explain to me how somebody knowing what you will choose means it's not your choice? If a psychic predicts what you will do, that somehow means you didn't decide to do it, that somehow the psychic made you do it?

Yeah, I think I can explain it better.

Look at the moment that we are in (the exact moment that you are reading this) and think about everything it took to lead up to this point. There was a "path" the universe took to get to this moment.

God, being omniscient, knew the "path" that the universe would take before he created it. He knew every decision that you, Snsoc, would make, not only before you were born, but before the first star was ever created.

He knew, before he created the universe, whether you were going to go to heaven, or going to go to hell. Let us say that you are going to heaven. So he knew, that by creating the universe, he would set it on the "path" that would lead to your existence, and ultimately your final resting place in heaven.

You can give someone the illusion of choice, but how is it a "choice" when you already know the decision they are going to make?

reply to post by LewsTherinThelamon


To clarify:

I'm going to kick this rock that's sitting in front of me. You know exactly when and how I'm going to kick it. At any point during the process, you have the power to tell me to stop or to physically reach out and hinder me. Any method you choose will effectively cancel my attempt to kick the rock. You have two choices.

Stop me.

Do not stop me.

If you choose to not act, you have allowed that rock to be kicked. If you do act, you have prevented that rock from being kicked. Either way, you have exerted your authority over my actions. Now imagine that same situation, with one slight difference: in my mind, you are oblivious to my intentions. In my mind, you are powerless to stop me. But in spite of this, you are not oblivious nor powerless. Again, you choose to either step back or interfere. Either way, you have once again exerted your authority over my actions.

If you have chosen to interfere, you have essentially stated, "I don't like what you're doing."

If you had chosen not to, you have essentially stated, "I can live with that rock being kicked."

You have made a choice, a conscious decision to determine the outcome of that moment in reality. And taking it further...omniscience and omnipotence gives you that level of control over every single instant and space in all of time and the universe. If it exists anywhere at any point in time, you have perfect control over it. And if you can conceive it, you also have perfect control over it. There is basically nothing that you are not master of.

So if this is true about you, from beginning to end, then the moment you started existing, the entire span of your existence is available for modification and editing at your discretion. Including the fate of every single existent thing you will ever encounter. Which is pretty much everything, considering your nature.

That is why free will is impossible in light of the Bible. With that much power, nothing happens without you making those two choices: interfere, or don't interfere. It is impossible for you to be omniscient and omnipotent and not make one of those two choices every single instant of your existence.

LawsTherin, this post is in response to the member you were responding to.

I will reply to this based on the following assumptions, in no particular order:
1. The Bible is the word of God.
2. God exists.
3. The Bible accurately conveys the nature of God.

The Bible does not explain your question and it's actually a very old question. It does however say that we can not know the mind of God, and there are some things that are none of our business.

The usual response then to this question is that God has a good reason and He chooses not to share this with us for another good reason.

I find that a little flippant, so how about a different approach where I will present a possible reason why God "might" do this...

My answer to your question can be found at the very beginning of the Bible where Adam and Eve were hiding in the garden after the original sin.

God knew what they had done, and that they were hiding, yet He does three strange things.
1. He enquires where they are.
2. He asks them what they did.
3. He asks them why they did it.

Now why does he do this?
He does this because by not doing so would deny them justice. He knows they're guilty, yet they still have a right to due process.

Likewise with those who will eventually be cast aside. God knows what they will do, and their ultimate end, yet this does not stop him from allowing them access to due process.

Now, based on the three primary assumptions listed at the beginning, we can assert that God is fair, and righteous.

Therefore, if we can find just one plausible reason why God would do this, then it follows that there must exist a true reason why this happens and does not contradict the rest of God's word even though it appears contradictory.

You can extend this to the concept of free will and that free will and the Bible are not mutually exclusive.

Logic and religion just don't mix. Here is a small sample of trying to blend the two to form our reality here on Earth; (R) = religious belief (L) = Logical analysis or assessment.

1.God is omnipresent/omnipotent (R). I have never seen him, heard him, or had any indication through any of my senses that such a being exists nor do I know of anyone who ever has (L).
2. Hell is a real place (R). Which direction is it (L)? Is it a different dimension (L)? Does fire carry the same properties in that dimension as this one (L)? Does hell have boundaries (L)? Does one feel pain without a physical body in hell (L)? Does hell have workers like a company or are they like Santa's helpers (L)?
3. God only wants you to worship him (R). The only way to heaven is through worship of Jesus (R). There is a logically contradictory issue with my placement of idol worship; are there 2 gods (L)? Does an eternally loving being really suggest that I love him or pay the eternal price with my soul (L)? Does he own my soul (L)? Does he have rights to me like a piece of property (L)? Am I born free or not because if he has this much control over me then I am not free (L).
4. Jesus has eternal love for you (R). But he punishes you to Hell eternal for not believing he exists (L)? Eternity means without end, so there is a suggestion that when you die you either go to heaven forever or hell forever (L). A man lives at the most around 100 years and this would suggest that this tiny, itsy, bitsy speck of a moment in the broad sense of time carries the weight of a sledgehammer for your eternal existence. If life is THIS precious, why do we charge for health care, why do we war, why do we murder, why do we lie, cheat, and steal from each other (L)? If this is our moment of ETERNAL judgement then our goal would to be sure all our families and friends and neighbors and everyone around us would escape such a cruel and twisted fate; but we don't (L). This creates a logical separation to what religion says about our afterlife and how we live in preparation for it.

I could go on and on but I think if you read this you either agree or disagree and my words change nothing. I also have no intention of changing anyone's mind, as I could never expect a faithful person to get me to abandon logic, as I have no delusion to bring logic to a faithful person.

Observations from other people can still be interesting so I hope at least one person liked this post.

Basically your blaming God for the consequences of "Freewill." God exists in time and out of time. He's already there... in the future; and in the past. A consequence of freewill, is the possibility of evil. It doesn't mean it has to happen, but the possibility of evil will always exist. If the possibility of evil, doesn't exist; then freewill becomes an illusion. So God has given us freewill, to choose good or evil. As well as the consequences and rewards for our actions, Heaven and Hell.

reply to post by Pink Panther

Basically your blaming God for the consequences of "Freewill." God exists in time and out of time. He's already there... in the future; and in the past.

Then how does he exist out of time?

A consequence of freewill, is the possibility of evil. It doesn't mean it has to happen, but the possibility of evil will always exist.

Evil is an adjective, not a noun. It's an expression of self-service. nothing more.

If the possibility of evil, doesn't exist; then freewill becomes an illusion.

According to the Bible, the mere possibility of evil behavior would exist only because "God" allows it to. Please read my statement on omniscience/omnipotence and free will, back on page 3.

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?” - Epicurus

As well as the consequences and rewards for our actions, Heaven and Hell.

States of mind. There is no point in playing the exact same game you've already played a thousand times before. And yes, that is the result of omniscience. Absolutely nothing surprises or intrigues you, because you've already analyzed every possibility and determined the outcome before the opportunity ever came. In fact, it's conceivable that the entire lifespan of this world takes place inside of a single moment in the mind of an omniscient being. If the Bible is to be taken as entirely accurate, then don't bother exercising free will. If "God" is both omniscient and omnipotent, then "God" knows every single thing you will ever do, because he is the one who allowed the opportunity to arise and the one who allowed you to succeed. He is the one who programmed your entire game. No part of your life exists without his consent, for he is the creator of everything. He wrote your life. You don't have any control at all. If he desires it, it is done. You are a sock puppet, born for the enjoyment of the great and illustrious Grand Master of the universe.

Hell is a dust bin for the puppets he didn't have fun with. A good little puppet, the kind that dances with every tug on the string, will earn its place in heaven...the home of the holy shepherd's flock, a bunch of zombie sheep.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

Even Socrates would have agreed with this

I haven't finished the thread beyond your post yet, NMA, but...
interestingly, I am in the process of rereading "Dialogues of Plato", specifically those involving Socrates at his trial, during his imprisonment, and when his friends came ready to "spring" him.

There are MYRIAD parallels between what Socrates said to his "followers" and what Jesus said.
In fact, it has further impressed me as "Jesus" being only another "archetypal hero figure" much as Krishna, Buddha, and others have been.

Socrates' existence is certainly fact;
the things he spoke about were nearly VERBATIM to what would later be quoted/attributed to Jesus.
But that's MY next thread, so - dibs!

Anyway, yes,
Akragon,
although you've invited those who "believe" in "Biblical hell" as the fundamentalists and others teach it, you've so far (as of halfway down page 1) only had those who agree with you.

I'ma sit with them and listen to the rest of the presenters (including you, Mr Keynote speaker!)

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by jhill76

 

No where in the bible does it say man will burn in hell forever.

This notion was brought upon via the church to cause fear.

But, it is possible Father could have said person here to teach others in an indirect way. For without evil, how could one appreciate good.

Then Jesus never spoke these words?

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into
everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison,
and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or
a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as you did it not to one of
the least of these, you did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
(Matthew 25:41- 46)

It still does not state man will burn in hell forever.

Some say the everlasting punishment is eternal separation from God, or the killing of the soul (the second death, as the first is physical).

reply to post by jhill76

It still does not state man will burn in hell forever.

Some say the everlasting punishment is eternal separation from God, or the killing of the soul (the second death, as the first is physical).

Let me show you.

Depart from me, ye cursed, into
everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

The phrase "everlasting fire" is clear. What else is it supposed to mean? Take care not to stretch things, these two words have pretty clear-cut definitions. Their conjunctive function is no less clear.

reply to post by AfterInfinity

The phrase "everlasting fire" is clear. What else is it supposed to mean? Take care not to stretch things, these two words have pretty clear-cut definitions. Their conjunctive function is no less clear.

Yes, the fire is everlasting because of this:

Rev 20:10

The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

No where does it state man will burn forever.

reply to post by jhill76

No where does it state man will burn forever.

It certainly doesn't say they will be thrown in and taken out. If they are thrown in and not taken out, according to the scripture, then they have clearly been left in that everlasting fire. Must I do your research for you and find more reported quotes about hell from Jesus?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

It certainly doesn't say they will be thrown in and taken out. If they are thrown in and not taken out, according to the scripture, then they have clearly been left in that everlasting fire. Must I do your research for you and find more reported quotes about hell from Jesus?

I know of what brother said. But, an assumption is drawn based on logic of man. If he goes into said fire, and it doesn't state he will come out, that must mean he will burn forever. Do not think of it, from the natural point of view.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by jhill76

 

No where does it state man will burn forever.

It certainly doesn't say they will be thrown in and taken out. If they are thrown in and not taken out, according to the scripture, then they have clearly been left in that everlasting fire. Must I do your research for you and find more reported quotes about hell from Jesus?

Everlasting fire has symbolic meaning... Not to be taken literally... Similar to what he said about hell, only when he spoke of "hell" it was a literal meaning... Look up the word Gehenna, it was an actual place where the bodies of the dead who couldn't afford a proper burial were thrown, and they used sulphur to dispose of the material so as not to spread disease. Which is where the fire and "brimstone" idea came from. The fires in Gehenna burned day and night which is where the "eternal fire" came from.

Ask yourself a question... Do you recall Jesus ever splashing fire on peoples heads?

Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

There is no God or entity that exists ANYWHERE that knows the future. Fate does not exist. There are always outcomes of the future maybe this will happen maybe that will happen. It's all about walking path of life...choices are like the fork in the road, each one leads to a different future.

If there is a god who can see all then I believe that he does not know what exactly will happen to one person in his life, but he might have an idea of what the outcome possibilities may be.