A logical problem with "Hell": Part 2

reply to post by sxt004


Read the post directly above yours. Either "God" exists as stated by the bible, or free will does. They cannot exist simultaneously. Not according to those parameters.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by sxt004

 

Read the post directly above yours. Either "God" exists as stated by the bible, or free will does. They cannot exist simultaneously. Not according to those parameters.

From the point of view that the deity sees the world, free will does.not exist, but to us on the ground, with no knowledge of the plan, free will does exist. You come to a fork in the road, and from.an aerial view you can see that the two roads again merge into one 10 miles later, but on the ground you can't see that far ahead. You very much have a choice, but had you seen the larger picture you would say you didn't have a choice at all. Of course one can always leave the road altogether and walk through the wilderness... I firmly believe in free will, and I also believe in God. I can't always explain how or why, but why should I?

Anyways I learned long ago that such a philosophical argument is pointless and even arrogant. People are always trying to prove or disprove God's existence and so few minds are ever changed. All it amounts to is a lot of hot air.

reply to post by steppenwolf86

From the point of view that the deity sees the world, free will does.not exist, but to us on the ground, with no knowledge of the plan, free will does exist. You come to a fork in the road, and from.an aerial view you can see that the two roads again merge into one 10 miles later, but on the ground you can't see that far ahead.

If you have no knowledge of the "grand plan" then how do you know you have free will? For all you know, everything you've ever said and done was planned out exactly as it happened. "God", with all of his omniscience and omnipotence, engineered the world precisely so that everything that has happened since the beginning would happen. All of it engineered, because he had the tools.

You very much have a choice, but had you seen the larger picture you would say you didn't have a choice at all. Of course one can always leave the road altogether and walk through the wilderness... I firmly believe in free will, and I also believe in God. I can't always explain how or why, but why should I?

Because of this:

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein.

Clearly, you don't understand whereof you speak.

Anyways I learned long ago that such a philosophical argument is pointless and even arrogant. People are always trying to prove or disprove God's existence and so few minds are ever changed. All it amounts to is a lot of hot air.

Oh, it's not difficult to disprove the existence of the Christian god. The Judaics weren't very good storytellers.

reply to post by Akragon


He knows who will go to hell. If he would just lop all of you dead and not incarnate you people would whine how God does not give people a chance. so he gives the benefit of the doubt.

why would God incarnate and allow his son to die if he just wants to toy with people to go to hell.

Religion at least chrstianity does not oppress or control. I do not feel oppressed or controlled. People will always find a reason to hate any concept of God or any religion for that matter.

It is naturally in mans nature to do so.

I am trying to understand why christianity is considered oppressive.

reply to post by Nina2010


Can we have the response in English please?

reply to post by Nina2010

He knows who will go to hell. If he would just lop all of you dead and not incarnate you people would whine how God does not give people a chance. so he gives the benefit of the doubt.

Weak argument. As such, do you have scripture supporting that theory?

why would God incarnate and allow his son to die if he just wants to toy with people to go to hell.

That's what we're asking!

Religion at least chrstianity does not oppress or control. I do not feel oppressed or controlled. People will always find a reason to hate any concept of God or any religion for that matter.

Then you are not a true Christian. Or maybe you're just naturally subservient and self-degrading.

It is naturally in mans nature to do so.

I am trying to understand why christianity is considered oppressive.

Because it tells us to demonize the flaws we should be learning from, and it gives us a load of reasons to judge and hate one another before telling us we must love another. Then it tells us to help the least among us, before saying we should stone, whip, blind, kill; etc anyone who breaks these rules.

Man does not naturally hate gods. Man naturally hates tyrants.

reply to post by Nina2010

Originally posted by Nina2010
reply to post by Akragon

 

He knows who will go to hell. If he would just lop all of you dead and not incarnate you people would whine how God does not give people a chance. so he gives the benefit of the doubt.

why would God incarnate and allow his son to die if he just wants to toy with people to go to hell.

Um... whut?

It wouldn't be so bad if "we" just died after life on earth (not really sure what you meant by "you people"). Most people are okay with only having one shot at life before ceasing to exist.

But if this eternal conscious torment that we're discussing was logical, how would a person be getting the benefit of the doubt if their creator knew exactly what would happen during and after their life?

Now I don't mean any disrespect here, but if I was on an aeroplane, and some guy says, "Hey, this plane's going to crash in two hours. I'm not going to give you any evidence though, just trust me because I've got the only two parachutes on this craft. Tell you what, I'll give you my second parachute, but you've got to do my every whim when we get to the floor," he sounds like he's toying with me.

Religion at least chrstianity does not oppress or control. I do not feel oppressed or controlled. People will always find a reason to hate any concept of God or any religion for that matter.

It is naturally in mans nature to do so.

I am trying to understand why christianity is considered oppressive.

Christians have used their religion to oppress and control. It happened during the Christianization of the Roman Empire, and the Saxons as well as other European peoples were forced to renounce their indigenous practices. Let's not forget the Goan and Spanish Inquisitions by the Catholics, the on-and-off Protestant persecution of Catholics in Tudor/Stuart and Cromwell's England, the forced conversion of West Africans during the Atlantic Slave Trade, the forced conversion of Native Americans, etc, etc...

Islam is just as bad. Forced conversions of various pagan peoples (never during Muhammad's Arabian conquest, mind), the Arab slave trade (which IMO is the primary cause of the negative portrayal of Africans today) the Ottoman Empire, and all the stuff happening today in Nigeria...

So yeah, people generally hate the concept of having his self-determination and autonomy taken away from them.

Just a disclaimer though. I'm not saying all Christians and all Muslims are inherently oppressive. Not even the majority. But their various institutions and worldviews have been used as such in the past, and even now in some ways.

reply to post by ihavenoaccount


I disagree that Christianity took over the roman empire. The assembly or church at Rome did get very large and caused a big disruption but only because of their love and generosity. What changed the roman empire was a fake christian who was in charge. The sheeple at the time who didn't care who they followed all of a sudden were Christians. The true Christians were the ones who held to not having anything to do with a governing church and hated organized religion with a passion. They were eaten by lions and still today are persecuted. If you consider roman catholic a christian church than you are technically right but very wrong. Jesus even said to hate the works of the nicolaitians. The catholic church is pretty much the newer version of them. The point is that sheeple took over rome not Christians they fled and were scattered to places like wales.

why put everyone through hell?
chaos theory. god knows the initial and end states. he is just allowing the individual participants to make their own decisions, even though he already knows the general outcome.
carefully read the bible. especially the end. you'ld be surprised that how much you've been told it says just isn't so.

Originally posted by Akragon
I've heard many people say God is Omnipresent / omnipotent... Meaning he sees all things that can and will happen in the past, present, and future, which I really have no argument about... Who am I to judge God

Though a curious thought comes to my mind with this idea...

I find many Logical Flaws with the concept of the Christian "Hell"... And while im sure there is a place for those that refuse to learn in this life, I don't believe for a second that Hell from the Christian perspective is one of those places.

Personally I believe Hell is nothing more then a fear tactic used for conversion... And while even Jesus mentioned Hell, he did not mean a place of torture where you'll burn for eternity. This concept makes no sense if one believes in a loving merciful Father of creation.
So I have yet another question for those of you who do believe Hell exists...
IF God sees all things past, present, and future... This means before a person is born his fate is already sealed... IF said person landed in Hell after his passing... God knew it was going to happen even before his/her birth...
SO the question is, what would be the point of letting a person incarnate into this life, if he is already headed to hell?
God knows this person will not learn... God knows he's headed to hell even before his birth... which means there is no chance for said persons redemption regardless of what he does in this life.
This basically means God just wants to toy with said person... stringing him/her along like a puppet only to cut his strings and toss him into the fireplace?
This is yet another logical flaw in the Christian concept of Hell
Just my opinion of course... for what it might be worth
Hell is a lie used to promote fear... Fear equals control... Which is exactly what the religions of the world want from YOU.
Control over your life... and your death, and all things in between

Re quote in entirety so to place all original thought back on tract. Hell is a/the end point for Christian conduct unbecoming. It is a fear tactic used as for by CKrytian sects--denominations groups gatherings of the brainwashed. Puppets we have been; the strange thing about the fireplace is that you create your own version of it after death. Whatever you believe at that point in time you will go (maybe not for long shock of death has to be overcome) because it is your belief construct. You create your afterlife as well as this gross physical life and everything you accomplish within it. So, if you take a human and plant fear vis-a-vie INSTITUTED doctrine of worthlessness, indoctrination and God fearing-- you are taking your psyche straight to your own imagined Dantes Inferno.

Everyone has control over this (short term destiny) yet no one knows it.
Purpose the fear? To FEED upon the emotion thereof. Cannot feed on Love. Negative emotion is what drives the tastebuds of those in power.

reply to post by Akragon


I was always taught in school and church that Hell was the absence of the presence of God. Fire and brimstone aside, the true torture of Hell would be not having the Spirit of God with us.

Originally posted by Nina2010
reply to post by Akragon

 

He knows who will go to hell. If he would just lop all of you dead and not incarnate you people would whine how God does not give people a chance. so he gives the benefit of the doubt.

why would God incarnate and allow his son to die if he just wants to toy with people to go to hell.

Religion at least chrstianity does not oppress or control. I do not feel oppressed or controlled. People will always find a reason to hate any concept of God or any religion for that matter.
I am trying to understand why ghristianity is considered oppressive.
It is naturally in mans nature to do so.

Jesus was designed to be the yoke. The subjugainer, the shill to enslave all believers into a doctrine of misanthropy. The Source was Jesus. It knew what it was doing. The whole point was to oppress and control that which it was jealous of. It lost control of its fractured parts, trillions (free will allowed to the human) and has been desperately trying to fix or corral its initial agreement; giving free will to the human BACKFIRED. Chaos was the plan and chaos did not happen (no feeding frenzy).

Without getting too deep into a theosophical debate, the main issue with the romanticized version of hell, is the competing natures of the following three assumptions.
1) God is Love
2) God is omnipotent
3) Humans have free will

If God is all loving, how could they punish their child in such a horrific manner? If God was omnipotent why would they allow someone to behave in such a way as to cause them to go to hell? If humans have free-will, does this not then take away from the omnipotence of God?

Unfortunately, complexities like these aren't just issues of black or white - as many make them out to be, but rather gradients along a spectrum.
1) Could a parent, to keep their child from the evils in the world, lock them up in a room (providing for their every need)? Or would this deprivation of external world exposure be considered cruel?
2) In the same thread, would God be more loving if they took away all free-will and therefore preventing evil from happening, or allowing people to grow through their own suffering and therefore allowing for the possibility of free-will?

While keeping with the Christian mythos, the fundamental concept of heaven is one in which the "spiritually mature" are able to come in the direct presence of God. What would happen if someone was "spiritually immature" would come in direct contact with God?

It's like the growing of a crystal. At first you just have a bunch of chemicals and a small seed. If you take the crystal out too soon, it will easily shatter - but nurture the crystal, give it the proper conditions, and the crystalline structure can grow to withstand even the strongest agitations.

This more dynamic conceptualization of Hell can be read in, CS Lewis's the Great Divorce. In the book he argues that hell is this process for reformation and maturation - that the only thing keeping people out of the presence of the divine is their own free-will choices (en.wikipedia.org...)

reply to post by Akragon


have you not noticed yet

that HELL is the here and now your living on HELL
The sins of the flesh

i heard that once when i was a kid and its always stuck with me

reply to post by NewAgeMan

reply to post by maryhinge


This is what I believe. Earth is the lake of fire mentioned in Revelation. With all the war, terror, and corruption, what else could this place be other than hell? Where the evil run the world and the people are manipulated to carry on the lies that the manipulators create. Christianity is a construct of these evil people, including Judaism and Islam. They are the Satan of this hell on Earth, the antichrists. The source of all the problems in my opinion.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by maryhinge

 

This is what I believe. Earth is the lake of fire mentioned in Revelation. With all the war, terror, and corruption, what else could this place be other than hell? Where the evil run the world and the people are manipulated to carry on the lies. Christianity is a construct of these evil people, including Judaism and Islam. They are the Satan of this hell on Earth, the antichrists. The source of all the problems in my opinion.

AND to get anywhere in this world you have to be evil, if you are evil in this hell you get rewarded. Also don't forget that Lawyers, CEO's, Bankers,and politicians are all demons and rule over this hell we call home..

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by sxt004

 

Read the post directly above yours. Either "God" exists as stated by the bible, or free will does. They cannot exist simultaneously. Not according to those parameters.

What do you think of this explanation of free will.
This relates back to my post on page 2 about how God has a meticulous and very orderly nature. While God can do what he wants he has specific boundaries that we can operate in.

However, free will does not mean that mankind can do anything he pleases. Our choices are limited to what is in keeping with our nature. For example, a man may choose to walk across a bridge or not to walk across it; what he may not choose is to fly over the bridge"his nature prevents him from flying. In a similar way, a man cannot choose to make himself righteous"his (sin) nature prevents him from canceling his guilt (Romans 3:23). So, free will is limited by nature.

Source

reply to post by jheated5


Exactly, and the reason we are here is because we have been taught to value "faith" over works and if we reject that mindset we go to suffer forever.

We don't respect our Earthly Mother because we are not taught about her. Her side of the story has been suppressed and only the Father mentioned, because if we truly respected our Mother Earth, there would be no profit to be made off of it and we all know those in power LOVE profit.

reply to post by Akragon


nice theory... but you are ignoring the fact that God has given men the free will... so this is a contradiction too... God doesn't intervene in any way with the life of men or any living creature... but does offer numerous ways to reach redemption or heaven... and not going to hell... which lead us to the next part of the problem--- God Do not send anyone to hell... men themselves do...

I do agree that God does really know what will happen... but what will happen it's completely variable due to the very existence of freewill... which means that god does know every single posibility and consecuences of each posible desicion and action a man can/will do--- nothing it's sealed until you made a desicion. then a posibility has become true and altered the course of the life of the subject. God pbviously hopes that everyone would stay living a honest life... that's the general plan. details in the mission in life of anyone are exclusive to each person living. and are subject to the freewill.
I believe dead it's something that is also not predefined... the world itself plays a great role at determining it.... and specially. the freewill everyone has.
That's why a desicion you make today tomorrow could mean a lot of things to a wider group of people... there is the real butterfly effect---
a phenomenon that illustrates perfectly the power of freewill.