A logical problem with "Hell": Part 2

Hell in the bible is not actually explained as a place of punishment or fire. It is more of like a holding place for your eternal parts. The lake of fire and hell are very different things. Lets get to logic. Logic from our perspective looks at a loving God and says throwing somone in Hell makes no sense. This is correct from our veiw. From Gods veiw though this is perfectly logical. You did not meet the requirements for living in Heaven and you also disobeyed his laws. Wether you like God or not we must look at these issues from the perspective of God who is omniscient but also is Jealous and I would say selfish in a way. God does love his children and says he saves his wrath for his children. If you are not a child of God you will live a semi ok life and probably excel in this world. However, If you are a child of God this is not the case. You will live a very troubled life filled with hardships and such. The closer you are To God the worse your life will be. The difference in the lives is that I and others like me have peace about it all and feel Gods love throught each issue. Hell is or isn't real or is nothing like we are told it is like. I would say though that Logically Hell does make tons of sense from God's perspective. We put people away for several laws being broken and we do it from a place of authority over those people. How much more authority would a Creator God have to eradicate or punish those that don't fit his perfect mold. We in this day and age look at morality is something natural and we say if God loves humans than why have Hell. Morality is a concept given by Jesus as an example of how we should be. The Truth is that we as animals act only when it helps ourselves. This leads to ethics not morality. If we apply the logic of ethics to Hell then it is perfectly fine even by HUman standards. I hope this helps

reply to post by ProtiosDrin


Can you support that entire argument using scripture? That's the authority in this subject, right?

Perhaps your title caught my attention because I don't think I've ever posted in Theology, but I wanted to share that I remember reading somewhere that Hell was just translated from the word "Gehenna". I believe this word is of Hebrew origin that means a place near Jerusalem where Israelites offered child sacrifices (for the ultimate sacrifice) to an idol.

For me, I've concluded that this place became the representation of sins and was lost in the translation. It makes sense (again, to me at least) that people who wouldn't of known of the Valley of Hinnom, "Gehenna" wouldn't fully understand the concept and spin their own interpretation.

reply to post by Jess117


There comes a point where no one is sure exactly which root word is the source of modern terms. That happens a lot. I've seen three or four different theories of how the word "hell" was born. And you know, I really don't care. I believe hell is what we make it. The only reason to be afraid of hell is if you know you haven't done everything you could have.

Lead a life to be proud of, and you don't have anything to fear. Not even death.

Originally posted by Akragon
I've heard many people say God is Omnipresent / omnipotent... Meaning he sees all things that can and will happen in the past, present, and future, which I really have no argument about... Who am I to judge God

Though a curious thought comes to my mind with this idea...

I find many Logical Flaws with the concept of the Christian "Hell"... And while im sure there is a place for those that refuse to learn in this life, I don't believe for a second that Hell from the Christian perspective is one of those places.

Personally I believe Hell is nothing more then a fear tactic used for conversion... And while even Jesus mentioned Hell, he did not mean a place of torture where you'll burn for eternity. This concept makes no sense if one believes in a loving merciful Father of creation.

So I have yet another question for those of you who do believe Hell exists...

IF God sees all things past, present, and future... This means before a person is born his fate is already sealed... IF said person landed in Hell after his passing... God knew it was going to happen even before his/her birth...

SO the question is, what would be the point of letting a person incarnate into this life, if he is already headed to hell?

God knows this person will not learn... God knows he's headed to hell even before his birth... which means there is no chance for said persons redemption regardless of what he does in this life.

This basically means God just wants to toy with said person... stringing him/her along like a puppet only to cut his strings and toss him into the fireplace?

This is yet another logical flaw in the Christian concept of Hell

Just my opinion of course... for what it might be worth

Hell is a lie used to promote fear... Fear equals control... Which is exactly what the religions of the world want from YOU.

Control over your life... and your death, and all things in between

I've been reading topics here for a long time but I felt the need to actually register to make this post.I can assure you, Hell is not a lie.

Many years ago, before going into the military and while i was actually serving, I dabbled occasionally with tarot cards. While in the military I made the dumbest mistake of my life and started to dabble more with the occult and started using some spells I found in a book given to me by a guy in my Company. I do not recommend this to anyone and not even my absolute worst enemy.

I was raised a Catholic and I suppose my conscience got the better of me. I decided to get rid of the Tarot cards and all of the books of spells and such and quit actively using spells, one of which required you to carry it on you at all times in your left breast pocket or left shoe.

Very shortly afterward a very bad string of luck started to occur. Partially because the spell I carried on me gave me influence over others and also because when you step away from this stuff that is what happens. It is the beginning of a fight i do not ever care to have to repeat. It is basically a fight for your soul.

For two plus years I was constantly tormented whenever I tried to sleep. I had to sleep with a Bible in my pillow and say a special prayer whenever i had my nightly fights.

The nightly fights consisted of my being pulled out of my body by demons surrounding me and being consciesly awake floating outside my body. How do I know demons? Because i could hear them all around me laughing the most evil, hideous laughter I have ever heard while they were doing it.

There more details but hopefully you get the jist of it. Anyone that thinks Hell does not exist is a fool and i beg of you no matter what you may believe to take it seriously.

This is my opinion. Agree or disagree, I really don't care. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, just stating how I see things:

Just because God knows what someone will choose to do does not mean the individual did not still make the choice by their own free will. It would be extremely unfair for God to just send someone directly to Hell without the opportunity to at least make the decision to go there themselves.

reply to post by Akragon


Watch my avatar, isn't it that?

reply to post by dragnik


...I'm sorry, what was your point in that post?

reply to post by dragnik


...I'm sorry, what was your point in that post?

Originally posted by followtheevidence
Hell is an event, not a place.

Hell IS a punishment.

Hell is not eternal in duration, but in consequence.

Hell is a punishment, an event which occurs at the end of time as it's clearly written in Scripture, during which the souls of the fallen will be ultimately destroyed. Extinguished. Put out. Cut off. And as Scripture says, "they will be as they never though they never were", and "they will be no more". They will simply cease to exist.

SO the big deal is that where there was once life, there is no longer life. Where there once was eternal communion with God, there is oblivion. Where there was once the possibility of reconciliation and peace with our Creator, there is eternal separation and enmity. That's pretty bleak. That's a pretty big deal. One does not have to BURN for eternity for it to be a big deal.

I don't see it as a big deal. Look at it like this: I don't remember anything before I was born. So, if I no longer exist, I won't know it. It won't matter. What's the big deal?

Also, I wonder why Jesus himself used a parable about a rich man burning in a flame while another man named Lazarus watched from across a gulf? That's a weird story to tell if there is no truth in it whatsoever.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


I am not christian, neither, it seems I am from hell, and I want to go back there... Realy...

reply to post by dragnik


I am fairly positive that if the Bible is entirely accurate and Hell exists as described, then that will be my destination when my time on this earth comes to an end. But I'd rather be true to myself in hell than fake to everyone else in heaven. If that's what heaven is all about, then I know where the Jersey Shore cast is going...

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by Jess117

 

The only reason to be afraid of hell is if you know you haven't done everything you could have.
Lead a life to be proud of, and you don't have anything to fear. Not even death.

Point taken. And those words right there, I think that's something everyone can agree with.

Well it doesn't really matter if god created hell as a place to shove angels that rebeled, the importance in hell is that god suposedly sends people there after they die. Not necesarilly people that were bad, but people that didn't ask for forgivness.

So if god can forgive you for anything, and he only sends you to hell for not asking forgiveness, then why can't god forgive you for not asking forgiveness? Seems an oxymoronic double standard to me.

Originally posted by natalia

I am a Christian and believe that the bible has been translated over and over and over again and by men who did want to control the masses.

I like jesus' love and compassion.

If you know the bible is corrupted, how do you know anything written inside about Jesus is true, even his quotes? How/why are you even Christian?

reply to post by Akragon


I believe that while God knows the choices we will make, the path we will travel, we still choose to travel that path.

Edit: chrome beat me to it. Well said.

Thank you all for your replies... Im short on time right now, but I will get to some more replies after work...

Again, my thanks for you participation

reply to post by logical7

how God contradicts?

God doesn't.... bible does...

Isnt that based on your belief of how God should be?
I am guessing an unconditional loving God.

Nope, Based on how his son describes him...

And i think you do believe in Heaven of some kind or reincarnation.

Heaven is just the Christian ideal for the after life... and yes... reincarnation is an option

How you integrate Love with Justice?

37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

And what solution/place you have for rejecters of a creator, refusing to learn and arrogant like the devil, people?

You already stated it.... they are reincarnated into the body they've created for themselves....

Also people who believe in hell dont all go nutz, and the one who go, would be nuttier even without that belief. Why you think "hell makes people nutz" are there no nutz who are atheists, reincarnationists, agnostics etc.

Hell doesn't make them nuts, preaching about hell as a means of conversion makes people crazy.... it turns them into self righteous ignorant pricks bent on directing every person in the world on how they believe people should live... Pardon my language...

"Frees people"? You think i am confined due to my belief?

Maybe?

I don't know you...

reply to post by steppenwolf86

I believe that while God knows the choices we will make, the path we will travel, we still choose to travel that path.

As explained in the original post of this thread, that is a logical impossibility according to the nature of "God". You can do absolutely nothing that he did not foresee and plan for millenia before your ancestors were even thought of. According to the Bible, he punished that which he did not like. This implies that he will manipulate most situations to his advantage, using whatever means he deems necessary. Therefore, it is likely that everything you have done and will do, regardless of your motivations, are in line with "God"s will. He designed you to make those choices, he designed your life to cultivate those choices, and he designed the world to react to your choices as he saw fit.

If "God" is truly omnipotent and omniscient, then this is how the world has proceeded ever since he created it, without exception:

In matters of omniscience and omnipotence, there are only two choices:

1. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" prevents it.

2. There is an opportunity at some point along a particular timeline. "God" allows it.

At any given moment in any given timeline in any given place, both choices belong to "God" and "God" alone. Any illusion of choice in our lives results from his having made one of the two choices above. Nothing can happen unless one of those two choices is made.

In this sense, free will is an illusion for every single creature and object that isn't "God". All choices pass through his screening process before we are ever aware of the opportunity to make those choices, but we think we have free will because we can't miss a choice we never had. And "God", knowing this, is laughing all the while.

I look at it like a circle of dots. If you see the whole circle, you can choose one at random and count all the way around until you reach it again. But if you only see a small portion of it at a time, twenty dots become an infinite number because your perception leads you to believe that there is still more dots to be followed. Because of your limited perception, you remain ignorant of the reality of the circle, and you chase yourself in circles for your entire existence, because you never realize you're tracing the same path. Now say a loop extends from that circle, leading back around to it. You follow that loop and you believe you've found an entirely new circle. Sometimes, it changes color just to sustain that illusion. But it's still the same circle.

That's called the illusion of free will. You see it everywhere, if only you can peek outside the little box of your limited perception. It's possible, but you have to be willing to accept what you find. If you don't want answers, don't ask questions.

And most people don't want answers anymore. They just want reassurance because they've lost faith in the answers. They want a pillow to cry on and a song to help them sleep. That's all.

As explained in the above quote, if the Bible is to be taken as fully accurate, then free will is a myth. Everything, absolutely everything, has been determined from the very beginning. There is no alternative. Either "God", as an omniscient and omnipotent being, has written the entire life story of this little planet in advance, or he is writing it as he goes along, which means he is not technically omniscient.

Which would mean the Bible is unreliable as a spiritual authority. Which would mean, in reality, we're back to square one regarding the nature of our world predominant higher power. Enter the collapse of the Vatican, religious anarchy, riots and chaos as zealots everywhere fight each over out of sheer confusion and despair and denial, so on and so forth. In short, it's game over, newbs.

And you wonder why I don't trust the Vatican to be honest? It's just too much trouble, far more trouble than the truth is really worth to their precious standing as far as politics and worldly influence goes. Nope. Lies are much more profitable, and much easier to manage. Truth doesn't make money. Good stories make money. And if you work it right, good stories can even rack up the willing souls of desperate men. After that, you run the risk of the men you duped taking over in the name of this grand vision you bribed them with, completely hijacking the operation and initiating an infinite loop of meaningless reverence. Enter endless generations of mindless drones with a single complex function: push button, receive bacon. Do what you're told, receive money and additional assets for yourself and family. Do that long enough, and no one even remembers freedom. And no one wants it. Slavery is so much easier. Everything is taken care of.

And when that happens, again: Game over. Unless, of course, you're Sam Flynn.

Originally posted by Akragon
I've heard many people say God is Omnipresent / omnipotent... Meaning he sees all things that can and will happen in the past, present, and future, which I really have no argument about... Who am I to judge God

Though a curious thought comes to my mind with this idea...

I find many Logical Flaws with the concept of the Christian "Hell"... And while im sure there is a place for those that refuse to learn in this life, I don't believe for a second that Hell from the Christian perspective is one of those places.

Personally I believe Hell is nothing more then a fear tactic used for conversion... And while even Jesus mentioned Hell, he did not mean a place of torture where you'll burn for eternity. This concept makes no sense if one believes in a loving merciful Father of creation.

So I have yet another question for those of you who do believe Hell exists...

IF God sees all things past, present, and future... This means before a person is born his fate is already sealed... IF said person landed in Hell after his passing... God knew it was going to happen even before his/her birth...

SO the question is, what would be the point of letting a person incarnate into this life, if he is already headed to hell?

God knows this person will not learn... God knows he's headed to hell even before his birth... which means there is no chance for said persons redemption regardless of what he does in this life.

This basically means God just wants to toy with said person... stringing him/her along like a puppet only to cut his strings and toss him into the fireplace?

This is yet another logical flaw in the Christian concept of Hell

Just my opinion of course... for what it might be worth

Hell is a lie used to promote fear... Fear equals control... Which is exactly what the religions of the world want from YOU.

Control over your life... and your death, and all things in between

You are very misinformed, which leads me to believe why you feel the way you do. God gave us all free will. That allows us to have true faith in Him. I'm not sure where you get that from birth he already has a second for second plan of your life. If this were true then He wouldn't have given us free will. He has events that He puts in our lives that allows us to either grow as people in love and knowledge as well as towards Him OR to move away.

reply to post by Akragon

Hell doesn't make them nuts, preaching about hell as a means of conversion makes people crazy.... it turns them into self righteous ignorant pricks bent on directing every person in the world on how they believe people should live...

i dont believe in judging and neither telling how anyone should live, but i do like to clear misconceptions about my faith.
If you just observe all the different faiths that are followed today, maybe you'l see what i see, "free will at work" but are all true? Would anyone easily accept being wrong? Me included. And If anyone says to me "relax, hell is a myth", is that really true?
And you are saying that Jesus pbuh never talked about hell? Remind me what will happen to any tree that doesnt bear fruits? Its a parable right?