A logical problem with "Hell": Part 2

reply to post by Akragon


Without getting into too much detail I believe there are two concepts that have been merged into one. I believe one of the concepts is judgment, fire and the hell that we create for ourselves here on earth because we continue to disobey God's one law.

I also believe that Revelation speaks of a judgment to come but I really don't know what that judgment will be like. I have, at least for the time being, stopped trying to understand Revelation.

reply to post by Akragon

Hi, Akragon. Although the "Hell" thema was done countless times here in ATS, it seems that once a while a similar thread emerges. So i will go briefly as to what i believe.

Hell is a lie used to promote fear... Fear equals control... Which is exactly what the religions of the world want from YOU.

According to revelation :

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev. 20-10

Notice that only "They" will be tormented forever?

You may ask what about the others ? Well you can start from Daniel 7:10

A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened.

So what happens after that ?

If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.Rev 20-15

Does that means that we are going to be tormented ? The answer is no. In Matthew 10:28 we read :

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Also, Jesus Himself made many references. Basically you can sum it up to the following. Everything uncleaned will be thrown to the everlasting fire. Remember the "Trash" reference? Everything was thowned there to be destroyed. As Rev. 20.14 says even :

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

So as you can see the lake of fire is an "Everlasting Death". Not an "Everlasting Torment". So to claim that Hell is a lie, is not true according to the scriptures.

A lie is the "Dantes Inferno" version of it, which seemes to prevail until today.Which is been used as a fear tool.

SO the question is, what would be the point of letting a person incarnate into this life, if he is already headed to hell?

God knows this person will not learn... God knows he's headed to hell even before his birth... which means there is no chance for said persons redemption regardless of what he does in this life.

This basically means God just wants to toy with said person... stringing him/her along like a puppet only to cut his strings and toss him into the fireplace?

God, does not toy with anyone, neither He wants any of His children to be destroyed. Otherwise Jesus sacrifice was in vain.Because Jesus sacrifice was for us to attain "Everlasting Life". But as it is in any court, some are guilty, some are not guilty. Only God knows.

Peace

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by logical7

 

If you rationalise that hell is made to control masses, then you are ignoring the other possibility "or its true" right?

I ignore the possibility because I believe a "God" would not contradict himself... On the other hand a "lesser being" would... Which is what you'll find in the OT...

If hell motivates anyone to avoid sin, its good enough for me.

Hell doesn't motivate anyone accept those that fear it. And it seems many that fear it go nutz...

Its something we're taught to fear from our youth... brainwashed into almost all societies... and nothing good comes from it...

If blasting the idea of hell makes people do more wrong, hurt others, would you take at least partial responsibility as you promote it?

IF "blasting" the notion of hell frees people of their fear of a mythical place that has no actual basis in their own religion... Yeh, i'd be happy to take responsibility for it...

Personally i'd rather see people abandon their religion all together and think for themselves... or even just read scripture for themselves instead of listening to preachers blow smoke up their.... (well you know

)

But i'll take it once step at a time

how God contradicts? Loving God Vs hell?
Isnt that based on your belief of how God should be?
I am guessing an unconditional loving God.
And i think you do believe in Heaven of some kind or reincarnation.
How you integrate Love with Justice?
And what solution/place you have for rejecters of a creator, refusing to learn and arrogant like the devil, people?
.
Also people who believe in hell dont all go nutz, and the one who go, would be nuttier even without that belief. Why you think "hell makes people nutz" are there no nutz who are atheists, reincarnationists, agnostics etc.
And you dint agree to take responsibility for the negative effects of promoting your idea.
"Frees people"? You think i am confined due to my belief? People who do understand and believe in God dont just do good for fear of hell. And the ones who dont believe dont care anyways.

Originally posted by Seed76

God, does not toy with anyone, neither He wants any of His children to be destroyed. Otherwise Jesus sacrifice was in vain.Because Jesus sacrifice was for us to attain "Everlasting Life". But as it is in any court, some are guilty, some are not guilty. Only God knows.

However, if anyone is ultimately lost, not saved, is Jesus' sacrifice then in vain? Did He not say much about the lost one of the hundred, and the effort to save it again? If we are able to see God's punishment as corrective, as a purifying fire, then we see that all are NOT lost. No, Jesus' sacrifice was not in vain, and He did accomplish what He set out to do - reconcile the whole creation back to the Father.

The Lake of Fire does not yet exist, at least, not here. Hell, as most people picture it, never has and never will exist.

reply to post by Akragon


My opinion of hell, if reincarnation is reality, is that the time spent between lives, and my belief that that 'place' between this realm/level is timeless, is an infinite amount of time spent as a pure being immersed in all the morally wrong/impure/selfish choices made. But futhermore, in that same moment you also experience the pain of those you immediately affected, and then the pain of those indirectly affected, along with the unfiltered visual reflection of their lives, and how your decision affected them.

That, in my opinion, is what I hope 'hell' is for every spirit deserving so.

reply to post by Akragon


I agree also and have many conversations with people who are very religious about it. My girlfriend truly believes because she got a divorce (catholic) that she will go to hell as well, not to mention the many other things she does not follow to a T. I tell her that she is not going to hell, she is a good person and if there is a heaven in hell (which is debatable also) she will be fine

My whole argument is like yours, If God knows all, past present, future of how you're going to turn out how do you have any free will? I cannot make a choice that is already made.

Pretty much anyone who is religious will argue that and say well he puts a choice in front of you and you choose the path, and that may be true, but if it is then he doesn't know the outcome and is not what you think either. It's one way or the other and I think and believe personally that I have free will and can make a choice.

I don't want a God that predetermines my outcome. That in my opinion would be Hell!

Originally posted by Akragon
.. And while even Jesus mentioned Hell, he did not mean a place of torture where you'll burn for eternity. This concept makes no sense if one believes in a loving merciful Father of creation.

Jesus said these following things according to the bible. How do you interpret them?

Matthew 5: 29-30 "If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell."

If hell isn't some place of severe punishment and agony, why would it be better to cut our your eye or cut off your hand than go there?

Jesus also said this in Matthew 18:8 "If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire." Notice the eternal fire part.

Finally in Matthew 18:6, Jesus threatens this, "But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea." Why would it be better for him to be drowned in the depths of the sea???

Eternal conscious torment is NOT what Scripture teaches. It's an absurd, heretical, self-refuting, man-made concept. It has nothing to do with truth or God's revelation. It's not even theoretically possible given the parameters of reality as outlined in Scripture. Ancient and contemporary Jew alike didn't teach it. It has no basis in the Bible. None, nada, zilch.

I should just write a thread on this topic. I've written pretty exhaustive essays after doing countless hours of research, cross-referencing, exegetical study, etc.

If people REALLY want to know what Scripture teaches - get a Concordance. Start by researching the word "hell", look up its original Hebrew/Greek definition EACH time it is mentioned in Scripture, come to understand the contextual inferences, etc. Go from there.

So preposterous how long this MYTH has remained an christian archetype. So ridiculous.

ETA: In short OP, you're absolutely correct in pointing out the logical errors associated with an eternal hell. It doesn't make sense. Well done.

Originally posted by followtheevidence
Eternal conscious torment is NOT what Scripture teaches. It's an absurd, heretical, self-refuting, man-made concept. It has nothing to do with truth or God's revelation. It's not even theoretically possible given the parameters of reality as outlined in Scripture. Ancient and contemporary Jew alike didn't teach it. It has no basis in the Bible. None, nada, zilch.

I should just write a thread on this topic. I've written pretty exhaustive essays after doing countless hours of research, cross-referencing, exegetical study, etc.

If people REALLY want to know what Scripture teaches - get a Concordance. Start by researching the word "hell", look up its original Hebrew/Greek definition EACH time it is mentioned in Scripture, come to understand the contextual inferences, etc. Go from there.

So preposterous how long this MYTH has remained an christian archetype. So ridiculous.

If it is not a conscious place of torment, can you explain the verses I posted directly above your post? Why would it be better to cut off parts of your physical body than to go to hell? Why would it be better to be drowned with a millstone tied around your neck than to cause a child to sin? What's the big deal if there is no place of torment?

We have been given enough information to decipher what is what, in my humble opinion. How each one of us deciphers such information is really quite different, as it should be.

Here is how I have deciphered the information I have taken in thus far....

God is a giver. Period. Thats what love is.... its giving of self without anything in return.

Our minds build on information. "The mind is the builder". This is the temple which all information passes through. Our thoughts expand on such information and our spirit (subconscious) puts everything in perspective according to its journey thus far, from each incarnation.

Some people are more connected spiritually (with their subconscious) while others are connected more in matter (material). When peace comes over me its when there is a balance of both or more alongside the spiritual.

There is only good, however good can indeed be measured by each one of us on a different scale. Who is the judge? You are. I believe we each do enough judging to our self and others to not need a higher authority judge. With saying that though it only seems logical that when we die, HOW we built our temple is what manifests when returning to the "spirit world". We have free will. In every sense.

On this planet we are engulfed with matter~ material. The mist/veil that covers the all seeing eye (mind) has to connect to the spirit or else the spirit gets lost in the material, time and time again. This cycle sets off an imbalance and our spirit looks for "God" to feel the void. Its only by Grace we find it because even though we say God doesn't talk to us... he does.... through others. Through "the word" (communication). Knowledge comes from "words". Information is had and comes through us all day every day. We are constantly at war with our self and this is a type of hell~ which is FEELING absent from God~ a void.

When we pass into the other dimension its my belief what we believe is actually the judge of us in this world or our logic of making sense of this world we may indeed find our self in the "christian hell" when we have believed all our life there is such a thing. If mind is the builder and the judge then what you believe when you leave the material world is indeed what you get in the spirit. Remember.... God is a giver. He gives you what you want, ask for, and believe.

When a person finds them self in darkness, a burning pit, stench and or with monsters, its because that persons mind believed such. Fire is a cleanser therefore the mind is being cleansed so that it may reunite with the spirit in peace and not trauma.

We think of time here in the material a certain way BUT what IF time on the other side is happening all at once. Logically we cannot know what it is to be without time or how time could operate in a different manner but my feeling is that time is so much different on the other side. Its all "now".

Anyways.... those are my thoughts....

Jenn

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by followtheevidence
Eternal conscious torment is NOT what Scripture teaches. It's an absurd, heretical, self-refuting, man-made concept. It has nothing to do with truth or God's revelation. It's not even theoretically possible given the parameters of reality as outlined in Scripture. Ancient and contemporary Jew alike didn't teach it. It has no basis in the Bible. None, nada, zilch.

I should just write a thread on this topic. I've written pretty exhaustive essays after doing countless hours of research, cross-referencing, exegetical study, etc.

If people REALLY want to know what Scripture teaches - get a Concordance. Start by researching the word "hell", look up its original Hebrew/Greek definition EACH time it is mentioned in Scripture, come to understand the contextual inferences, etc. Go from there.

So preposterous how long this MYTH has remained an christian archetype. So ridiculous.

If it is not a conscious place of torment, can you explain the verses I posted directly above your post? Why would it be better to cut off parts of your physical body than to go to hell? Why would it be better to be drowned with a millstone tied around your neck than to cause a child to sin? What's the big deal if there is no place of torment?

Hell is an event, not a place.

Hell IS a punishment.

Hell is not eternal in duration, but in consequence.

Hell is a punishment, an event which occurs at the end of time as it's clearly written in Scripture, during which the souls of the fallen will be ultimately destroyed. Extinguished. Put out. Cut off. And as Scripture says, "they will be as they never though they never were", and "they will be no more". They will simply cease to exist.

SO the big deal is that where there was once life, there is no longer life. Where there once was eternal communion with God, there is oblivion. Where there was once the possibility of reconciliation and peace with our Creator, there is eternal separation and enmity. That's pretty bleak. That's a pretty big deal. One does not have to BURN for eternity for it to be a big deal.

If one simply follows only what jesus says in the bible and says there is no eternal punishment or hell or however you want to explain it. What do you do with something like mattew 25:46?

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I have read arguments as far as the meaning of the word αἰώνιος aiōnios not meaning eternal or forever but if this is the case then one can make the same argument that we wont get an eternal life either. Not sure why they say everlasting in the first part and eternal at the end of this quote. Far as I have been able to tell its the same word carrying the same meaning.

Riddle me this:

If hell IS an eternal punishment and if Christ really did pay the wages of our sin IN FULL - why isn't Christ burning in hell as we speak, for all eternity?

reply to post by Lazarus Short

However, if anyone is ultimately lost, not saved, is Jesus' sacrifice then in vain?

Well technically, if someone is "unltimately" lost, then that person is lost. That does not mean that Jesus sacrifice was in vain. It would have been in vain and unecessary if God wanted our destruction.

Did He not say much about the lost one of the hundred, and the effort to save it again?

Yes, but He also said only few will enter, if i recall correctly. Beside that, i think a better example would be the parable of the prodigal/lost son.

If we are able to see God's punishment as corrective, as a purifying fire, then we see that all are NOT lost.

God´s Judgement is final, but we will have our chance to prove our worth on the tribulation time.

No, Jesus' sacrifice was not in vain, and He did accomplish what He set out to do - reconcile the whole creation back to the Father.

Yes, He did accomplished what He set out to do.

Hell, as most people picture it, never has and never will exist.

Yes, i agree with you. As i said in my previous post, the "Dantes Inferno" version which is the one that prevails till today, is a fictious place.

Peace

Originally posted by followtheevidence
Riddle me this:

If hell IS an eternal punishment and if Christ really did pay the wages of our sin IN FULL - why isn't Christ burning in hell as we speak, for all eternity?

Nice question and I have no insight into it. I never have been able to wrap my head around the whole idea of sacrifices. Old testament states to kill things, sprinkle some blood and burn it and your all clear and the message conveyed in the new is that jesus is this sacrifice. Blood and killing just doesn't seem to make sense when it comes to sin forgiveness, at least in my opinion. As far as why would jesus not be in hell? Are the millions of animals slaughtered and burned in hell since they were used to "pay for sin" or atone?

reply to post by natalia


Jesus is quoted many times as having mentioned Hell and how we end up there. Are you familiar with such scripture?

Thank you for posing this question. You may not have noticed, but I have made this point many times in the past. Perhaps now we'll get a decent answer.

reply to post by NewAgeMan


So what are your thoughts on hell?

I have come to the conclusion that "hell" was a creation of the church (Catholicism) to incite fear into the public.

That would make sense, given that, at one point in time the church was the center of government authority.

reply to post by Seed76


I think what that member was getting at is that, Jesus paid the "ultimate" price for our sins. If anyone winds up in hell after his death, then his sacrifice was in vain because it did not succeed in accomplishing its goal.

reply to post by jhill76

No where in the bible does it say man will burn in hell forever.

This notion was brought upon via the church to cause fear.

But, it is possible Father could have said person here to teach others in an indirect way. For without evil, how could one appreciate good.

Then Jesus never spoke these words?

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into
everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison,
and ye visited me not.
Then shall they also answer him, saying Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or
a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as you did it not to one of
the least of these, you did it not to me.
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
(Matthew 25:41- 46)