A logical problem with "Hell": Part 2

There are motives behind those that preach hell, even from the very beginning of the idea...

IF one believes he only has one life to live, and if its not done correctly you're subject to torture by fire... The mind is trapped looking for a way out... And if there is an "organization" that specialises in Saving "your soul" from said firey pit... Then that person has no choice but to listen to whatever they tell you.

Its using fear to manipulate the mind.

Great way to build an army of followers willing to kill for their religion... as we've seen from human history

Originally posted by Akragon
There are motives behind those that preach hell, even from the very beginning of the idea...

IF one believes he only has one life to live, and if its not done correctly you're subject to torture by fire... The mind is trapped looking for a way out... And if there is an "organization" that specialises in Saving "your soul" from said firey pit... Then that person has no choice but to listen to whatever they tell you.

Its using fear to manipulate the mind.

Great way to build an army of followers willing to kill for their religion... as we've seen from human history

Correct! The motives exist because of the psychological necessity to shift blame and responsibility...which is inextricably tied to the question of FREE WILL...no responsibility - no FREE WILL, and the other way around...
If jesus taught anything, he taught the importance of being accountable, as did all prophets...

'these are your "tools", these are the parameters in which they can be used, and this is the reason why you should use them wisely...'

A99

Originally posted by Akragon
There are motives behind those that preach hell, even from the very beginning of the idea...

IF one believes he only has one life to live, and if its not done correctly you're subject to torture by fire... The mind is trapped looking for a way out... And if there is an "organization" that specialises in Saving "your soul" from said firey pit... Then that person has no choice but to listen to whatever they tell you.

Its using fear to manipulate the mind.

Great way to build an army of followers willing to kill for their religion... as we've seen from human history

every person has a brain to think and its for using.
Any organised religion that appears selfish is wrong.
If you rationalise that hell is made to control masses, then you are ignoring the other possibility "or its true" right?
If hell motivates anyone to avoid sin, its good enough for me.
If blasting the idea of hell makes people do more wrong, hurt others, would you take at least partial responsibility as you promote it?

reply to post by Akragon


I always implore others to have a direct relationshop with Father rather than an indirect one via a pastor.

If the church taught this, there would be no members. Give just enough for them to fill knowledgeable but not enough for them to go off on their own.

reply to post by logical7

If you rationalise that hell is made to control masses, then you are ignoring the other possibility "or its true" right?

I ignore the possibility because I believe a "God" would not contradict himself... On the other hand a "lesser being" would... Which is what you'll find in the OT...

If hell motivates anyone to avoid sin, its good enough for me.

Hell doesn't motivate anyone accept those that fear it. And it seems many that fear it go nutz...

Its something we're taught to fear from our youth... brainwashed into almost all societies... and nothing good comes from it...

If blasting the idea of hell makes people do more wrong, hurt others, would you take at least partial responsibility as you promote it?

IF "blasting" the notion of hell frees people of their fear of a mythical place that has no actual basis in their own religion... Yeh, i'd be happy to take responsibility for it...

Personally i'd rather see people abandon their religion all together and think for themselves... or even just read scripture for themselves instead of listening to preachers blow smoke up their.... (well you know )

But i'll take it once step at a time

reply to post by Akragon

And there is no hell in the all-inclusive Christ, nor the desire to do evil in his love. The solution therefore is already at hand, freely available to all who hunger and thirst for righteousness or goodness, which is it's own reward.

Jesus Christ and his great work is the tree of life, which transcends the law or "should and shouldn't" setting us free for the sake of freedom to freely love as we are loved.

"Love, and do as you will."
~ Sr. Augustine

That said, we must not then immediately condemn the condemners or the self righteous in their faith that all outside the faith are destined for eternal hellfire and damnnation for their lack of it, and weren't we all in the same boat at somepoint or another, unaware, blind, or even in some state of rebellion - therefore once saved, who can go out and immediately condemn their neighbor or "save" them under the threat of hellfire and damnation, what "love" is there in that?

The love of Jesus is REAL love, and therefore it must be unconditional, all-inclusive and invitational, it cannot be coercive or it's just not the love of Christ.

But my oh my what a giant BEAM then is in the Church's eye, how to remove it, that's the key.

And when we manage to do that as Christian people, then people will no longer be repulsed by Christianity, but instead drawn to it, by our love.

It's a very subtle distinction however, where there is nothing that "the devil" (within) would rather do than to uproot the tree of life and replace it, yet again, immediately with the tree of the knowledge of good and evil before we even know what happened.

The difficulty here then is the lack of faith in the inherent goodness of man and his desire to do good and to be good, even in the face of free will choice ie: freedom.

And who is the righteous one among us who would condemn the unrighteous?

And who, once liberated by grace, would the place others under the yoke of the law? Such a one cannot yet have come under grace to begin with.

Such is the great beam in the eye of modern "Churchianity" who unwittingly rob the Great Work of Jesus Christ of all it's value, by turning it into a conditional framework as well as rod with which to strike the sheep and scatter them, instead of speaking with his voice and drawing them towards the gate.

I know that in his day, Jesus wasn't too pleased with such people, and yet now here we have his own church filled with such nonsense as that which he himself vehemently opposed and gave his very life to uphold and protect (Liberation and the absolute freedom to love absolutely).

reply to post by Akragon

Just never forget that the "difficulties" of the OT formed the very framework by which the new arrived.. never forget that, and if there were agents, powers, principalities, even demiurges who didn't really know who they were, behind all that remained the One above all who was who is and who is to come the Almighty, who employed that same framework by which to step right into the scene, so it all worked itself out towards a common purpose and that's all that matters, not condemning one or another, that's not how Jesus handled it or interpreted it for that matter.

Here's your four step program to resolve your "logical problem":

1) Click the "SEARCH" link at the top of any ATS page
2) When the page appears, enter the text "Why would God send someone to hell" in the search box
3) Observe the numerous threads already posted on this topic
4) Peruse said threads to obtain the wisdom one thought one was prompting from the posting of a pointless question posited numerous times before

reply to post by adjensen

Yeah, "nothing to see here, move along folks"... every other thread but this one will give you the wisdom you need where it's already been covered ad infinitum, there can be nothing new to be said on this issue, and if it has, go anywhere else BUT here - gotta keep hell alive and well stoked while ridiculing Christianity as much as possible...

reply to post by NewAgeMan


See... now what depths of hell would this thread have plunged into if you had decided to sit on the sidelines...



reply to post by adjensen


Sorry brother, I don't like your method...

I don't need to find out why God would send people to hell... In my opinion he wouldn't...

Chances are I've already said my piece within most of the threads on this topic already...

And since little "wisdom" can be gleaned from those that are giving reasons as to why God would send anyone to "hell"... And I already had a thread about the logical problem with said idea...

Why not make a part two eh?

Originally posted by Akragon
I don't need to find out why God would send people to hell... In my opinion he wouldn't...

And, in the opinion of most Christians, he wouldn't send people to Hell, either.

Hence the suggestion that you check the archives -- this topic has been done to death, no pun intended, lol.

reply to post by adjensen


lol a star for your pun... silly goose

But if you check you'll only find two threads pointing out logical issues with the concept of hell... and I own em both.

reply to post by Akragon

Quick question Akragon..

In gaining your wisdom on this matter/issue - have you ever gone to hell and back in the desire to resolve the "problem of hell"? Have you ever had a "dark night of the soul"? Have you gone to the wall, or climbed up it as needed? Have you reached out and snatched the fire from the "Gods" to bestow it as a boon to your fellow man?

Or, did you do the smart thing and simply examine the teachings of Jesus Christ and search them for their wisdom and truth, and if so I say well done, either way!

However, you still have to forgive Yaweh (or however it's spelled) because he either knew precisely what he was doing and why, or served as a dupe for a higher power still, and for some reason I'm just not so sure how helpful it is to on the one hand resolve the problem of hell while on the other condemning Yaweh to it, when the problem might have been on our side, not his, and if his, it was well contained and masterfully played..

I've been "to the wall" over this thing, and in my experience it's best to leave the devil if there is one to God who alone has the infinite intelligence and wisdom by which to deal with "it", because God transcends the duality of good and evil and demonstrated as much through the cross where the strong man was bound.

Does that make sense? Do you "grok" what I'm saying, that there's always this final "twist" that we're better served to avoid at any and all cost and I just don't want to see you make that final slip of judgement, by demonizing something that might yet have it's own rationale from a POV we might not have previously considered ie: how messy and difficult the process of Civilizing mankind and setting up the frame for Christ might have been...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by adjensen

 

lol a star for your pun... silly goose

But if you check you'll only find two threads pointing out logical issues with the concept of hell... and I own em both.

You didn't look very hard...

Based on Christian faith, would God send someone to Hell for not believing in Hell? isn't your thread.

Nor is

A Loving God who throws folks in hell because they didn't want to be controlled by him?

Or

Why does God allow the existance of people who go to hell?

Or

How could a loving god send anyone to hell?

Or

Why should I go to hell?

... in other words, it's been done to death, and not by you.

Try and come up with some other reason for people to hate Christians... these are rather stale.

reply to post by adjensen


Why did you post that? You've completely misunderstood his intent and rationale, and mine as well.

Furthermore, he and I are your Christian brothers, so unless you want to argue vehemently FOR hell, or for a conditional salvation under threat of hell, removing the possibility of love as a free response to the love of God in Jesus Christ, an argument that you clearly have no interest in, then you're barking up the wrong tree!

Was that to REMIND us of the other old and stale arguments, and if so I really must ask you - WHY?

reply to post by NewAgeMan


The only thing I don't get is this "grok" thing of yours... Pretty sure you've explained it before though..

Now correct me if im wrong... but he asked us to forgive our fellow man... Jesus makes no mention of forgiving other Gods... Factually speaking he only spoke of one God... so from his POV this OT God I speak of isn't actually a God, but I use the word for lack of a better one... Lesser God I suppose.

Should I forgive this so called God? One that asks the blood sacrifice of animals? One that commands his followers to destroy and murder others? And will even go so far as to demand women and children to be put to the sword... all for the sake of his own pride and jealousy?

Then even when the true God sends his own son who likely volunteered anyways... This God and his minions execute Jesus for teaching love!! And creeps his way back into the religion... which Jesus tried to correct...

Can I forgive such a being?

I don't know...

And I feel its not my place to do so... but perhaps im wrong...

reply to post by adjensen


LOL... wow

Well my intent isn't for people to hate Christians... Honestly most of them are pretty good at making others hate them on their own...

Mine is a push to read between the lines... In other words don't accept everything you're taught...

Besides those threads aren't really the same as this... im not asking ATS any questions as those threads seem to be doing... Im making a statement...

Hell doesn't exist.... Its fabricated to promote fear

Originally posted by Akragon
Hell doesn't exist....

Not any more..

Edit to add: It might have been or become a problem, however, if Jesus didn't resolve it personally and once and for all time, because there aren't enough innocent "bloody animals" (said like a Brit for humorous effect) in the world to atone for the collective and cumulative sins of the whole "nation" of man.

reply to post by Akragon

Hell is a lie used to promote fear... Fear equals control... Which is exactly what the religions of the world want from YOU.

I learned more to fear hell from the music industry than I did from church. In this seeker friendly church age hell is a topic avoided at all cost. It's slipped in as you walk out the door, oh by the way you will go to hell if you don't believe.

The music industry has thrived on it. Not a big money maker for the church.

Seriously though, if you see how God operates he is very meticulous and good at separating things. Take his creation for example: dark and light, waters above and waters below, bids on one day beast on the other, His philosophy of the first shall be last, proud verses the humble, the wheat will be separated from the chaff. God likes His order of things. So if He created heaven then there is a separate place than heaven.

God is not stringing any one along, He is being true to His order of things. God is not just making things up as He goes. An omniscient all powerful God is a just God.

I don't know weather it's like Cobain's " lake of fire and fry" or Jesus' "great gulf fixed".
Im a christian not because I fear burning in hell. I'm in fear or better said awe of an omniscient all powerful God who is meticulous about every detail of his creation, and while I tramp all over it ignoring His instructions He still longs for me to join him in his presence, in heaven.

Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. (Revelation 3:20, 21 ESV)