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A logical problem with "Hell": Part 2

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posted on Jan, 12 2013 @ 06:26 PM
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Originally posted by Joecroft
reply to post by Akragon
 





Originally posted by Akragon
I've heard many people say God is Omnipresent / omnipotent... Meaning he sees all things that can and will happen in the past, present, and future, which I really have no argument about... Who am I to judge God



I find that this whole Omnipresent/omnipotent...aspect of God, does not come from the Bible, but instead seems to be coming from other religious definitions of God.

My personal view right now, is that God is as Omnipresent, as He can possibly be, without actually being so!

I believe that because God can see more than any of us, He is able to see shadows of potential future events, which are most likely to occur, if certain patterns of things, go unchanged etc…




Originally posted by Akragon
SO the question is, what would be the point of letting a person incarnate into this life, if he is already headed to hell? …


So too answer your question, I believe we are not predestined to be heading anywhere, because through what I explained above, God essentially leaves us, with our own freewill.




Originally posted by Akragon
And while even Jesus mentioned Hell, he did not mean a place of torture where you'll burn for eternity.


I agree with you that Hell is not a place where ones burns for all eternity. Just based on the biblical scriptures alone, Hell is the “second death”.

So to be alive spiritually forever suffering punishment; would mean that God was lying in Genesis, when He said “…for when you eat of it you will surely die” etc Of course from the Christian perspective this is not just talking about physical death entering the world, but also about being cut off from God as well, which includes spiritual death, i.e. “The second death”

I know you have done many Threads now on Hell…but I’m kinda curious… what do most of Jesus metaphors/words around Hell, mean to you?


- JC


The whole point of this grand experiment was to be cut off from God; no cell phone no telepathy to see what we'd do as a stranded and screwed with (DNA) Nibiru playtime. Hell is not a general place. It is what you imagine for yourself as your personalized JAIL. I use the pawnbroker as an explaination. One planet all of the proclivities of taking advantage of the downtroden go THERE; problem, no customers. What to do?! NO MERCHANDISE and in as "WE PAWNSTERS" have NO SOULS TO BARTER. Fitting and beautiful. This applies to all other boutique endevers; very specialized in your problematic individualized sins against your fellow man will come back to judgement regarding the ownership of your SOUL and if you can argue its freedom.
edit on 12-1-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)
edit on 12-1-2013 by vethumanbeing because: We are told not to Judge but you are a fool to believe that




posted on Jan, 13 2013 @ 06:26 PM
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reply to post by vethumanbeing
 


Your reply was a tough cookie to decipher at first.

But with the help of my friends down at the top secret IBM lab, or more specifically, something pretty similar to “Watson” (the artificial intelligence component) in combination with the latest advancements in DeepQA and Deep Blue technolgy, and linked up to the World Wide Web, (Think “the Dark Knight” Batman movies, and you’ll almost be there) we were able to have a crack at deciphering your message.

Unfortunately, half way through the decipherings, one crucial component of the ”Machine” (which I can’t name for legal reasons) blue a fuse…and died.
This repair could take weeks to fix, but luckily for me, us, and all concerned the “Machine” just managed to throw out one half of a printout, of a deciphered message. So without further ado, I can now respond to your above post.

The Printout...

(Think Monotone Voice)

***


Originally posted by vethumanbeing
The whole point of this grand experiment was to be cut off from God;


Define. experiment? Define. God? To. Much. Data. On. God. Therefore. You. Must. Be. Specific…



Originally posted by vethumanbeing
no cell phone no telepathy to see what we'd do as a stranded and screwed with (DNA) Nibiru playtime.


Cell. Phones... Can. Be. Used. To. Help. When. Stranded.

Telepathy. Communication. Without. Apparent. Connections. Has. Not. Been. Proven. Scientifically… Need. More. Data…

First. Source. Of. DNA. Must. Be. Known. To. Confirm. If. Current. DNA. Has. Alterations.

Nibiru. A. Mythical. Planet. From. Babylonian. History… Currently. No. Evidence. That. It. Exists.

Playtime. A. Term. Used. To. Identify. A. Recreational. Activity. Which. Assists. In. Learning.




Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Hell is not a general place. It is what you imagine for yourself as your personalized JAIL. I use the pawnbroker as an explanation.


Hell. A. Place. Where. Evil. Doer’s. go. To. Experience. Punishment. And/Or. Where. They. Are. Destroyed. NO. Scientific. Data. For. This… Need. More. Data…

Specify. General. Place?

Imagine… To. Think. Form. A. Mental. Picture. Construct. Idea. with. Or. Without. Adequate. Foundations.

Jail… A. place. Of. Confinement. Detention. Of. Persons. Who. Have. Committed. A. Crime. Or. Waiting. Trial.

Pawnbroker… Lender. Of. Money. Who. Charges. Interest. In. exchange. For. Personal. Property.

Explanation… Mutual. Clarification. That. Teaches. Understanding.

***
Unfortunately this is where the printout ended…so I’ll just have to go it alone, from here on in.



Originally posted by vethumanbeing
One planet all of the proclivities of taking advantage of the downtroden go THERE; problem, no customers. What to do?! NO MERCHANDISE and in as "WE PAWNSTERS" have NO SOULS TO BARTER. Fitting and beautiful.


Maybe this was where the fuse blew out…lol… just a hunch…

So what your really saying is erm….emm…emm (And this could be totally off base here) but what I think your saying, is that we’ve created our own Hell, down here, on Earth?

Don’t quote me on that though, although I guess your gona have too…oh well




Originally posted by vethumanbeing
This applies to all other boutique endevers; very specialized in your problematic individualized sins against your fellow man will come back to judgement regarding the ownership of your SOUL and if you can argue its freedom.


This all kind of reminds me of that movie “Being there” with Peter Sellers.

Here’s an extract…



President "Bobby": Mr. Gardner, do you agree with Ben, or do you think that we can stimulate growth through temporary incentives?
[Long pause]
Chance the Gardener: As long as the roots are not severed, all is well. And all will be well in the garden.
President "Bobby": In the garden.
Chance the Gardener: Yes. In the garden, growth has it seasons. First comes spring and summer, but then we have fall and winter. And then we get spring and summer again.
President "Bobby": Spring and summer.
Chance the Gardener: Yes.
President "Bobby": Then fall and winter.
Chance the Gardener: Yes.
Benjamin Rand: I think what our insightful young friend is saying is that we welcome the inevitable seasons of nature, but we're upset by the seasons of our economy.
Chance the Gardener: Yes! There will be growth in the spring!
Benjamin Rand: Hmm!
Chance the Gardener: Hmm!
President "Bobby": Hm. Well, Mr. Gardner, I must admit that is one of the most refreshing and optimistic statements I've heard in a very, very long time.
[Benjamin Rand applauds]
President "Bobby": I admire your good, solid sense. That's precisely what we lack on Capitol Hill.


- JC



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 04:53 AM
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Looks like most of the arguments have POLARISED themselves around the one-eyed version of events and phenomena...very, very sad...

A99



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 12:48 PM
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reply to post by akushla99
 


My arguments revolve around the popular claims that "God" is omniscient and omnipotent, but failed to foresee or prevent "Satan" corrupting his children. The whole proposition is completely illogical...



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 03:17 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by steppenwolf86
 



From the point of view that the deity sees the world, free will does.not exist, but to us on the ground, with no knowledge of the plan, free will does exist. You come to a fork in the road, and from.an aerial view you can see that the two roads again merge into one 10 miles later, but on the ground you can't see that far ahead.


If you have no knowledge of the "grand plan" then how do you know you have free will? For all you know, everything you've ever said and done was planned out exactly as it happened. "God", with all of his omniscience and omnipotence, engineered the world precisely so that everything that has happened since the beginning would happen. All of it engineered, because he had the tools.


You very much have a choice, but had you seen the larger picture you would say you didn't have a choice at all. Of course one can always leave the road altogether and walk through the wilderness... I firmly believe in free will, and I also believe in God. I can't always explain how or why, but why should I?


Because of this:


"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein.


Clearly, you don't understand whereof you speak.


Anyways I learned long ago that such a philosophical argument is pointless and even arrogant. People are always trying to prove or disprove God's existence and so few minds are ever changed. All it amounts to is a lot of hot air.


Oh, it's not difficult to disprove the existence of the Christian god. The Judaics weren't very good storytellers.






Ok so you must know the grand plan then if you say there is no free will. I mean you argument is that if he believes it then he must know the grand plan, well that goes both ways.

So i'm waiting on an explanation of the grand plan.

God's greatest gift was free will.



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 04:48 PM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 



I agree with you that Hell is not a place where ones burns for all eternity. Just based on the biblical scriptures alone, Hell is the “second death”.


I do not believe the "second death" happens... only rebirth...

There is no reference to the "second death" in the gospels... except perhaps...

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

And I don't believe he was talking about the death of the soul... There is other ways to destroy something without it becoming non existent


So to be alive spiritually forever suffering punishment; would mean that God was lying in Genesis, when He said “…for when you eat of it you will surely die”


Right...

That wasn't God speaking for one... Have you ever noticed this verse from that same chapter you're speaking of?

21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Ever wonder why this so called God is Jealous?

You just found your answer...


I know you have done many Threads now on Hell…but I’m kinda curious… what do most of Jesus metaphors/words around Hell, mean to you?


I seem to be inclined to believe he is speaking of a place called Gehenna which is the word he actually used... A place just outside of the walls of Jerusalem where they disposed of the bodies of people who could not afford a proper burial... I also believe its very possible he meant at death some souls can not escape the body... so their literally trapped within their own "prison" for a time




posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 05:18 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


Are those standard verses, which show an understanding god and not a vengeful one?



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 05:25 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


I have no idea what you're talking about...

Perhaps you might elaborate?




posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 07:17 PM
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Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by drivers1492
 


God is more than just man, he is the birds and the fish, man and woman, trees and bushes, planets and the stars, he is everything that can be seen and he is the thing which sees everything. God is us experiencing himself.
edit on 11-1-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)


We are IT the "thing" all beauty in nature the grand design; the monster in the closet. YUP we are God pieces fractionalized soul Reeses Pieces. The point? To experience itself, what else could explain the chaos, the insanity of this world? Take an autistic child (god) and put it in a room full of toys or just a snow globe-what do you imagine it would do?



posted on Jan, 14 2013 @ 07:25 PM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 


Nicely done Mom, I could have sworn I'd locked that door.

This planet is an experiment, no holds barred, free will and all; to see if humankind is going to figure it out for the very first time or kill itself (very tiresome) again.

edit on 14-1-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 04:30 AM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by akushla99
 


My arguments revolve around the popular claims that "God" is omniscient and omnipotent, but failed to foresee or prevent "Satan" corrupting his children. The whole proposition is completely illogical...


Forget the 'popular' claims...
All cosmologies describe the omniscience and omnipotence of the Source...working from this premise (which is a consistent theme)...the element of FREE WILL is much misunderstood (especially in relation to a Source from which everything emanates)...

Two polar arguments arise from this misunderstanding that distract from the understanding of what it means to confer the ultimate in freedom, the ultimate in love to that which you create, as an expression of yourself...

To be 'availed' of all the possibilities and probabilities (omniscience) of your creation/s, but conferring FREE WILL upon conscious emanations (disregarding laws and rules that operate 'nature')...does not mean that anything has been failed to be foreseen...neither does it mean that 'prevention' (under the auspices of FREE WILL) can be brought into play...(as this would negate/curtail FREE WILL)...there are only rules for the use of the conferred FREE WILL that describes a narrow path back to Source. Sin (a stupid word, in context) is nothing but the wandering from this path into distraction...i.e. takes longer, forget where you've been, forget where you were going...DISTRACTION...

The 'logical' problem with hell&satan (or whatever thoughtform or locale, created through FREE WILL) does not exist...

It is perfectly logical...FREE WILL, which confers the ability to create anything...either collectively or individually, has done exactly this (according to the precept of FREE WILL). Others say, hell is on earth - this is the materialisation of thoughtforms, in action...devils, demons...actions of a demonic nature...the materialisation of thoughtforms...according to the precept of FREE WILL...

The 'proposition' is illogical when accepting the myopic, exclusionist death-dealing, schizophrenic jumble of ONE cosmologie...

A99



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 09:37 AM
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reply to post by akushla99
 



“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?” - Epicurus


Your argument still leaves gaping holes, as you fail to address all the above facets of the discussion. Either he subscribes to favoritism, or he is unable to abolish all evil. Free will has nothing to do with the fact that he chose to create evil and then condemn it, but not before imbuing all of his creations with the potential for that which he has condemned, even knowing he would condemn it..not to mention that he gives his creations every opportunity to succumb to it.
edit on 15-1-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 11:17 AM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by akushla99
 



“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?” - Epicurus


Your argument still leaves gaping holes, as you fail to address all the above facets of the discussion. Either he subscribes to favoritism, or he is unable to abolish all evil. Free will has nothing to do with the fact that he chose to create evil and then condemn it, but not before imbuing all of his creations with the potential for that which he has condemned, even knowing he would condemn it..not to mention that he gives his creations every opportunity to succumb to it.
edit on 15-1-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)


The questions posed, are called 'closed question' format. They are NOT in actuality questions at all...i.e. 'Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able"...the words 'willing', 'prevent', 'evil' and 'not able' are 'unqualified assumptions'...
THERE ARE NO GAPING HOLES...

FREE WILL is germinal to the discussion, whether you like it or not, and is completely and absolutely relevant...I'll let you work out why...

A99



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 04:26 PM
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reply to post by akushla99
 



The questions posed, are called 'closed question' format. They are NOT in actuality questions at all...i.e. 'Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able"...the words 'willing', 'prevent', 'evil' and 'not able' are 'unqualified assumptions'...


How are they unqualified assumptions?



THERE ARE NO GAPING HOLES...


You have so far failed to refute the Epicurus quote. From where I am sitting, that is indicative of several gaping holes.
edit on 15-1-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 07:52 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 





Originally posted by Akragon
I do not believe the "second death" happens... only rebirth...

There is no reference to the "second death" in the gospels... except perhaps...

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

And I don't believe he was talking about the death of the soul... There is other ways to destroy something without it becoming non existent


So reading between the lines here, I take it you mean that after Reincarnation has taken place, that the previous Soul was deleted, erased, became non existent, like the wiping of a CD etc… is that close?

Please feel free to help me out here, by expanding on it a little bit…

You already know my perspective is similar to yours, on various other spiritual matters, based on my previous posts etc…




Originally posted by Joecroft
So to be alive spiritually forever suffering punishment; would mean that God was lying in Genesis, when He said “…for when you eat of it you will surely die”




Originally posted by Akragon
Right...

That wasn't God speaking for one...


Holy Mama… I didn’t see that one coming





Originally posted by Akragon
Have you ever noticed this verse from that same chapter you're speaking of?

21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Ever wonder why this so called God is Jealous?

You just found your answer...



Interestingly enough, only in “Youngs Literal Translation” is the word “Jealous” rendered as “Zealous”, which has a completely different meaning.

My own view, is that God wanted men to follow him, instead of dead idols, which had no life in them. Also Jesus fulfills the Ten Commandments, which were given by God, so right there, there is a clear connection to the God in Exodus with Jesus.

As for other evil actions that God apparently commanded, I don’t believe they came from God, but by men abusing their power and position and by following something other than the Father God i.e. the Father of lies. The same is true with the so called other extra commandments, they were either added by men, or they came from another evil source IMO.

Jesus, throughout many passages shows, that there is a clear connection to himself and the OT God. John8 verses 31 to 56, is a good place to start, especially verses 37 and 56.

I believe what Jesus is trying to show in those above passages, is that although the Abrahamic line was following the one True God, that there was also an imposter there, throughout many parts of OT, who was creating a divide, and claiming to be God.


- JC



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 07:54 PM
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reply to post by vethumanbeing
 





Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Nicely done Mom, I could have sworn I'd locked that door.


It was locked, but I have the secret Gnostic key to open it…



Originally posted by vethumanbeing
This planet is an experiment, no holds barred, free will and all; to see if humankind is going to figure it out for the very first time or kill itself (very tiresome) again.


I believe there was a time when all men lived in the knowledge of the truth and their divine connection to the Father God etc, but at some stage further back in time, that all changed.

All men must now strive to get back to living in that truth, before, like you mentioned above, we destroy each other.

Sorry for that first crazy reply, that is not my usual posting style, as anyone here on ATS will testify too.

Peace be with you…


- JC



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 08:38 PM
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reply to post by Joecroft
 



So reading between the lines here, I take it you mean that after Reincarnation has taken place, that the previous Soul was deleted, erased, became non existent, like the wiping of a CD etc… is that close?


the CD is wiped clean on every "incarnation"... what has been done is done... but the actual CD still remains.

What is left is that person/soul's Karma, even Karmic "debt"... which remains until its "resolved" in one way or the other...


Holy Mama… I didn’t see that one coming


That actually suprizes me... I thought you would have noticed an Anti OT God trend in my threads


You like gnostic texts right?

Take a look over these two books... You'll get a better idea of what im talking about with the OT God...

www.gnosis.org...

www.gnosis.org...

The Apocryphon of James and John...

I find these a little more believable as compared to what you'll read in Genesis... Mind you Im not saying these are completely accurate... I believe some things are not meant for us to understand



edit on 15-1-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 11:01 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by akushla99
 



The questions posed, are called 'closed question' format. They are NOT in actuality questions at all...i.e. 'Is god willing to prevent evil, but not able"...the words 'willing', 'prevent', 'evil' and 'not able' are 'unqualified assumptions'...


How are they unqualified assumptions?



THERE ARE NO GAPING HOLES...


You have so far failed to refute the Epicurus quote. From where I am sitting, that is indicative of several gaping holes.
edit on 15-1-2013 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)


They are assumptions of intent...and the intent is unqualifiable...willing, prevent, evil, not able...what is it, about this form of 'trap' questioning, do you not understand?

Epicurus' 'questions', contain assumptions required to answer them, that must be agreed to (also, according to you)...I definitely do not agree with the assumptions...and place no veracity in Epicurus' assumptions...therefore, THERE ARE NO GAPING HOLES...

If Epicurus did not understand the mechanisms and processes put in place, his assumptions, and consequently his questioning is erroneous...

What I see is that Epicurus has no idea...if you are following his 'internally looped' logic, I can only conclude that you also, have no idea


A99



posted on Jan, 15 2013 @ 11:02 PM
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edit on 15-1-2013 by akushla99 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2013 @ 01:44 AM
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The REAL crux of the WHOLE matter of Everything is... mankind does NOT have free will.It is the ONLY logical and truthful conclusion if there is a creator God /source(and there is ).God is 100% sovereign(the only sovereign there is) therefore everything that is God wills ...happens.It doesn't matter one bit what anyone else will is... Gods will trumps all and is in complete control of ALL things.

Man may make many choices all day for a lifetime however none of them are free from cause/effect...the most basic unbreakable law of existence. ALL was/is/will be caused by the Creator God.It can be no other way.If there is no creator God it is up to those that believe so to provide the burden of proof.It takes very little imagination to see the universe did not create itself. For those that say they believe all the scriptures read Isaiah 45:6 and Colossians 1:16-17 1 for a few of the many scriptures that support causation and the completely soveriegn will of The Creator God..

God does not have to prove anything to mankind that he exists and is the sovereign of all.He is not "pining" after humanity wishing they would come to love him or he'll fry you in a mythical hell for eternity.It is obvious God is very content that billions would believe that.because...God is causing it ALL for Gods purposes not ours.He is not worried about anyone receiving the eternal punishment of hell... there is none..just as is there is no heaven "somewhere out there" that the majority who believe in hell believe in...it is IN your midst.

Those doctrines are God giving man over to their reprobate mind of religion.... ALL is religion.i.e..The worship of MAN (themselves) as God.Idolatry.That is what man is doing when they think their will is free to "will" as they please". God the creator is causing EVERYTHING.He created EVERYTHING.He created light and dark and ..Good...and EVIL.That also means God is RESPONSIBLE for everything....in both senses of the word.

I am not trying to convince anyone of this because I know for a fact it is impossible to believe unless God reveals it (unveils..apocalypse).There is a reason and purpose for EVERYTHING even this great blindness that ALL of mankind was born with.All of mankind will be healed of this great blindness and see the futility of believing otherwise.In one sense it doesn't change anything... except your perception of LIFE! I wouldn't trade it for anything.





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