A great point for Intelligent design! And I'm an atheist.

Just one small thought if I may? When you say you can 'kinda' see how believers get their ideas with things like DNA and seemingly thought out systematic structure..., these things were VERY far from being known when people 'invented?' the first Gods, and when believers started believing. Just a random thought.

It's hard to tell with your threads, jj, whether you're serious or not. But I'll bite.

First, SETI isn't informed by the word of God, it's a search, which implements a bureaucratically approved strategy for merely-possibly finding a merely-possible needle in a haystack. The needle-identification method proposed is to look for things "unlike" what is found in nature, after filtering out the unnatural things we ourselves put into the search space.

The analogy should end there, falling to the floor fatally wounded. Complicated organisms are exactly what is found in nature - complicated organisms, us, are even what's doing the finding. "Interesting-to-SETI" patterns of radiation are based upon what is rare in nature. That's why SETI would subject any such rare signal to further investigation. It would be that further investigation that would decide the issue, not the mere discovery of "pattern."

The only kind of "win" that would probably work immediately (and it's not the only kind of thing SETI sifts for) is something that matches the profile of what we would do if we wanted to tell the rest of the universe that we were here. We'd do something like send a few prime numbers over and over ("Blip blip long pause blip blip pause blip blip blip long pause blip blip pause blip blip blip pause blip blip blip blip blip long pause," and repeat that indefinitely: 2 - 2, 3 - 2, 3, 5 - ...).

So, if we heard one of those relatively few transparently artificial (and the longer the message, the smaller the proportion of messages of that length have the "toolmark" of being something we'd think to do), then we would have "an approach to certainty through experience," rapidly, that intelligent life exists elsewhere, developed enough to modulate electromagnetic radiation, and deliberately seeking to be recognized as such. Woo hoo.

But evolution by natural selection isn't how we'd design things, nor is there any "purpose" to be designed for, not one that emerges from the observation of living things. Unless, of course, that "purpose" is to compete better in evolution by natural selection, which isn't a purpose that creationists could logically have in mind.

Well, unless they think their God has a sense of humor... now there's a hallmark of intelligence! Unfortunately, so is imagination, and with imagination comes the capacity to see purposes that aren't there, especially purposes that concern us...

... You just know that the second question after seven days of "2,2,3,2,3,5" is heard 'round the world will be "Gee, do you think they're aiming this at us? Do they know we're here?"
-

reply to post by trysts

You seem to be puzzling with the cosmological implication of a god/designer, jiggerj.

Honestly, I just like hearing ideas that offer a bit of substance to either side of the religious/atheist debate. One way or the other, I'm living my life the way I want to. God or not, this is my life. MINE! lol

So if we found an intelligent alien species who didn't have DNA at all, would that make them not very intelligent at all? or not created intelligently???

reply to post by eight bits

It's hard to tell with your threads, jj, whether you're serious or not. But I'll bite.

Hi Eight bits, Listen, I am a seeker of truth. I don't care where it comes from. If some drunken bum hands me a sea shell and I put it to my ear to hear, "Hi, I'm god," then I'll believe it. The truth is the truth.

The bible and the idea of a biblical god, on the other hand, isn't even close to the truth. There are so many holes in most of the stories that it makes them laughable.

reply to post by jiggerj


Friend you just haven't looked hard enough, because the joke's on us, and it's not that there isn't any "God" but because there is and we're already included by virtue of our presence, because for man, in time and being or in history and experience, to be is to be perceived, we're part of a circle, a God-loop you might call it, from which some may escape in death, while others, in the deepest being are already in the resurrected life and thus can never die. It's up to us, there's a choice, and we're either things or something much more extraordinary as a phenomenon, which is testable by the qualia of our own personal human experience. God, is our CONDITION. God is not "out there" or "In here", not even everywhere or nowhere in particular, while at the same time our "father" in so far as we are also created beings in time and history and thus have arisen within the context of an I-thou relationship, between a beloved and beloved other, for the sake of love as the reason for the seasons, and for the experience - a generous act, the creation is in other words. Of course this doesn't mean you HAVE to be grateful in the deepest depths of your being, to God, for being included - you could still respond with a hauty "Bah Humbug"

And I don't think it really matters either way, since God is still God no matter what we might think of believe about God, as the transcendant Godhead - but to deny our own selves the knowledge of the God within, for no other reason than that we cannot distinguish the God without, is an absurd proposition, it's like asking people to deny their own deepest experience.

It's like attacking your own neighbor, for no reason. Who are you attacking then?

God is way way way beyond our ability to comprehend, and in his wake there are gales of laughter to be had let me tell you.

Please try to understand, that you are assuming too much about what the beliefs of another really are, and then functioning relative to a "small God".

It's so funny! Maybe you have no idea.. just how funny it really is, I hope you do some day Jigger, honestly, I hope you're always open and available, for a surprise the likes of which you have never even begun to imagine.

Best Regards,

NAM.

reply to post by NewAgeMan

it's not that there isn't any "God" but because there is and we're already included by virtue of our presence, because for man, in time and being or in history and experience, to be is to be perceived, we're part of a circle, a God-loop you might call it, from which some may escape in death, while others, in the deepest being are already in the resurrected life and thus can never die.

See, everything you wrote here has no basis in fact. Therefore, you, I, or anyone else can't possibly 'know' this stuff. What IS a fact is that mankind's history proves that there isn't a biblical god. If we remove religion from our history we still would have banded together as tribes, warred on each other, feared that which we found different from us, and gave birth to individuals that grew up to murder, rape, steal... We also would have loved, had children, developed ideas of right and wrong within each tribe, set up governments...

EVERYTHING humans have done has been only and exactly what humans can do. There simply is no evidence of a biblical god.

reply to post by jiggerj


The bible, God, and Christ all point to what is reality - what is actually going on right now as this. It talks over and over again about presence, the present, right here and right now - reality. Yet those who do not understand the bible make up their own stories about what they think it means. They look in time, they look in mind and in books for the truth and argue over stories. Only when the truth is known will the bible make any sense.
This is reality, this is happening - what is really going on?

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by jiggerj

 

The bible, God, and Christ all point to what is reality - what is actually going on right now as this. It talks over and over again about presence, the present, right here and right now - reality.

Then LOOK at this reality. Over six and a half billion people out of 7 billion believe in a god and practice religion (love, forgiveness, tolerance...), and LOOK at the world we live in. We should ALL be experiencing a whole lot of love after FIVE THOUSAND YEARS of such practices.

If six and a half billion people can't stop war, hatred and intolerance, then what good is it to believe in gods and practice religions?

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by jiggerj

 

The bible, God, and Christ all point to what is reality - what is actually going on right now as this. It talks over and over again about presence, the present, right here and right now - reality.

Then LOOK at this reality.


If six and a half billion people can't stop war, hatred and intolerance, then what good is it to believe in gods and practice religions?

You are not seeing reality when you say:
"Over six and a half billion people out of 7 billion believe in a god and practice religion (love, forgiveness, tolerance...), and LOOK at the world we live in. We should ALL be experiencing a whole lot of love after FIVE THOUSAND YEARS of such practices."
You are looking at 'your belief system'. Can you look with your eyes and hear with your ears? The appearance is real. But you see inside your mind where there is beliefs and ideas and ideals! You build a world of suffering and live within the world you build.

The bible, God and Christ point to 'this moment of presence' where it is peaceful. But you want drama and fighting. Reach into the mind full of stories and you will suffer. Come to this moment - what's wrong with right now.....unless you think and imagine? And believe the stories you have heard that make anger and fear emerge.

The bible and the message within hold the key to the end of human suffering by telling the story of man and his confused state of separation. Humans feel lost and confused and they suffer, not because some dude is punishing them but because they feel incomplete and isolated because of this apparent separation. The bible is about being a separate individual and then realizing there is nothing divided. It is one. The suffering ceases and the kingdom is revealed.
Living in the dramas in the mind, living with ideas and beliefs are what divide you from the whole. Beliefs are damaging and as an atheist you should know this.
What is real? Really real? This moment is real, what does it consist of? Can you be sure there is anything else?

Does there need to be anything else? Finding out what is real brings peace and joy.

reply to post by Itisnowagain

What is real? Really real? This moment is real, what does it consist of? Can you be sure there is anything else?

Is it only in my mind that Muslims and Jews are killing each other over a few 'Holy' buildings?
Children starving all over the world - false?
Global economy on the verge of collapsing because the greedy got careless - not true?
On the verge of world war - not gonna happen?
With over five thousand years of preaching love, and with over six and a half billion people believing in it today, this message isn't doing anything, and *** I *** am the one living out a fantasy of bad things in my mind??? This is MY belief system??? Wow!


You see, while people like you do nothing but sit back and envision peace and love and what it will be like in the afterlife, the greedy and corrupt are increasing in number HERE! THIS is where we live right NOW. And, global love ain't doin' it for us.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

What is real? Really real? This moment is real, what does it consist of? Can you be sure there is anything else?

You see, while people like you do nothing but sit back and envision peace and love and what it will be like in the afterlife, the greedy and corrupt are increasing in number HERE! THIS is where we live right NOW. And, global love ain't doin' it for us.

So what are you doing to promote peace? It is you that is suffering. And you spread suffering because it oozes out of you.
I do not envision the 'after life' - this is life and it is eternal - there is no rest from life. Life can be hell and it seems that's how you experience it. You can't see and hear what is real because you eat from the tree of knowledge.
I offer you an alternative view of God, Christ and the bible but you are so full of your beliefs and ideas you refuse to even try to understand.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


If you have an ounce of compassion for living beings in this world, then you too may get out of your "nowness" comfort zone and feel something for the past events that shape today's events. But you choose to vomit this "present is all there is" gibberish, so you remain selfish and obscure to people actually living in the real world.

Originally posted by trysts
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

If you have an ounce of compassion for living beings in this world, then you too may get out of your "nowness" comfort zone and feel something for the past events that shape today's events. But you choose to vomit this "present is all there is" gibberish, so you remain selfish and obscure to people actually living in the real world.

I have compassion for those that are suffering and i offer a way out but not many will understand because they have not suffered enough yet. Carry on.

Originally posted by trysts
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

But you choose to vomit this "present is all there is" gibberish, so you remain selfish and obscure to people actually living in the real world.

The 'real' world is what is present - it is what is real. To see and hear and respond to what is happening is union. To live drenched in horrors of the world (that has been delivered by the tv or news paper) and use information that is secondhand as a weapon to fight with, is the human condition.
Fighting beliefs with beliefs.

When all the ideas about the world are dropped there is just this. Prior to conception there is pure seeing and hearing and a peace that surpasses all understanding.

Originally posted by jiggerj
I'm in the middle of watching a debate between Hitchins and William Dembski. Hitchins vs Dembski To be honest I didn't expect much from Dembski, and then 'POW!' he says something so profound that I can't find a way around it.

I have to use my own words because I'm too tired to write verbatim what he said.

When the people at SETI (Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence) search for radio waves they can easily tell if the waves are occurring naturally or if there is an intelligent pattern. A few well placed blips on the screen and the scientists will scream "It's an intelligent communication!"

Yet, when we atheists look at the VAST amount of information buried in our DNA, we call it natural. Just guessing here, but that information (in our DNA) would probably be tantamount to a few thousand pages of radio waves with a pattern.

Have to admit it, I'm totally stumped.

I know by your posts that you are inherently a good person.

Anything that is not Chaos is intelligence. Believing anything less is Chaos. You are correct, not only do they prove what I am saying; they admit that nothing else would be proof.

No one expects a serious of chaotic blips to have been originated by intelligence. Yet for some reason when we think about God atheist believe that intelligence came from Chaos.

You once said why do we need God to know what is good? Nothing intelligent can come from Chaos.
I would encourage you to just believe in something bigger even if it makes no since. Because something that we don't understand is better than believing in chaos.

When you said why we need God to love, you prove that you know love. You also prove that we have free will to choose love. And from your intelligent observation religion does not teach love. It teaches separation, judgment and hate.

You are correct this is what religion teaches, but you don't have to believe in religion to believe in God.

Because you believe in love and all truth is found in love, than you must believe in the author of that love. It takes more intelligence to perform even one act of love than it does to perform 1000 acts of chaos.

I do believe that I am a man who has been given a gift from God and I have much more I could share with you. But this is not the thead for that.

If you are not ready to hear more, hold on to what you have found, for love and God will save you.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain

Originally posted by trysts
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

I have compassion for those that are suffering and i offer a way out but not many will understand because they have not suffered enough yet. Carry on.

My goodness you're full of yourself! Some people don't want fantasies for escaping reality. Some of us are all grown up now, and live in a world with a past, present, and future. You float about "offering" fantasy of some selfish "now" which amounts to a coma.

reply to post by trysts

Originally posted by trysts
My goodness you're full of yourself! Some people don't want fantasies for escaping reality. Some of us are all grown up now, and live in a world with a past, present, and future. You float about "offering" fantasy of some selfish "now" which amounts to a coma.

You think i am full of myself yet you are the one being all authoritive and condesending and arrogant.

I share what is known here and you tell me i am wrong! I share an alternate view from the regular view of God, Christ and the bible and you come and get all emotional.
You have to see that it is 'your' suffering. Your suffering is projected onto the world.
Go in search of the one that is suffering to end all suffering.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by trysts

 

You think i am full of myself yet you are the one being all authoritive and condesending and arrogant.

I share what is known here and you tell me i am wrong!

edit on 12-1-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

And what is it you're "sharing"? 'Nothing matters but now, and it is eternal....'

Emptiness, selfishness, and barely a shadow of a thought, in my view.

Originally posted by trysts

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by trysts

 

You think i am full of myself yet you are the one being all authoritive and condesending and arrogant.

I share what is known here and you tell me i am wrong!

edit on 12-1-2013 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)

And what is it you're "sharing"? 'Nothing matters but now, and it is eternal....'

Emptiness, selfishness, and barely a shadow of a thought, in my view.

Peace, joy and understanding.
Humans are confused and fearful but they don't have to be.