Why is no one touching this remark?

Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Jigger, there have been volumes of books written on this very subject, because even the majority of Christians have little idea of what Christ was supposed to have accomplished by his death and resurrection. Forgiveness is but a part of that. I'll try to give a brief idea of what was accomplished according to Christian mythology...er...theology.

The old testament(covenant/law) was perpetually binding forever, by god's own word. The only way out from under those rigid laws, and the covenant, was death. So the only way to set the Jews, and afterward the heathens free, was to fulfill all of the covenant, and the laws requirements, and offer the perfect sacrifice, once for all.

So Christ came to do more than forgive sin. He came to set humans free from the law by living perfect under it, and then offering himself as the ultimate sacrifice. Hence, the Christian term, "in Christ". Meaning god sees Christians as dead to the law through Christ, and alive through the resurrection of Christ.

That's as simple as I can put it, and that leaves out a LOT.

if Jesus pbuh fulfilled the law and died taking the law down too, sounds like a sucide mission, also isnt that idea coming from the same people who promoted the idea of dying for sins, good idea to get rid of all difficulties, sins, law at the expense of Christ dying! When it contradicts his saying that the law will not change till heaven and earth pass away!

reply to post by logical7

Don't forget the resurrection! You have to read the gospels to get the whole context.

Also, see my avatar to the left and think about what "logical8" would look like.. Don't make any assumptions, just re-inquire again with an open mind, just to see if there's anything that you might not have considered before.

Best Regards,

NAM

reply to post by NewAgeMan

(don't forget the resurrection part

Oh, I can't forget it. lol This is a point where I think the writers of the bible missed a great opportunity. We know that soldiers were sent to guard the tomb so that no one could steal the dead body of Jesus and claim he had risen. Jesus was spotted by a few of Jesus' followers while all of the soldiers guarding the tomb mysteriously fell asleep. Tell me, who would have been THE GREATEST witnesses of Jesus come back to life?

THE SOLDIERS!

Imagine standing guard while the huge stone covering the tomb magically rolled away, and then Jesus in his death shroud comes walking out, with angels unraveling the cloth. The soldiers would have seen Jesus' wounds and knew that he must have been dead. I know I would have done something in my pants upon seeing that!

reply to post by logical7

When it contradicts his saying that the law will not change till heaven and earth pass away!

Biblically, it doesn't contradict that verse at all. The law didn't change. It was, and is perpetual. What changed was man/woman in relation to it. If you're dead, the law is of no effect. Those in Christ are dead to the law, because they died in Christ, and were also resurrected with him, that they may be alive to god through him.

Romans and Hebrews, are a good starting point to help understand it all.

Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by logical7

 

When it contradicts his saying that the law will not change till heaven and earth pass away!

Biblically, it doesn't contradict that verse at all. The law didn't change. It was, and is perpetual. What changed was man/woman in relation to it. If you're dead, the law is of no effect. Those in Christ are dead to the law, because they died in Christ, and were also resurrected with him, that they may be alive to god through him.

Romans and Hebrews, are a good starting point to help understand it all.

its word play, "they died in Christ"!!
That means each has to die themselves? So everyone died to pay and not just Christ. And dead to the law means murder, steal, covet and nothing is sin?
And if holy spirit guides them to avoid sin then holy spirit makes each follow the commandments. And the law is back!!

reply to post by logical7

its word play, "they died in Christ"!! That means each has to die themselves? So everyone died to pay and not just Christ. And dead to the law means murder, steal, covet and nothing is sin? And if holy spirit guides them to avoid sin then holy spirit makes each follow the commandments. And the law is back!!

As you wish, makes no difference to me. It's all mythology anyway. But I spent decades as a Christian, studying that bible, and related texts. I know Christianity. I may be a little rusty at times, but I know it. BTW, Romans chapter 7.

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?
2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

reply to post by jiggerj


Death was created as a punishment for sin. Jesus died without sin, and when he did, death became no longer a punishment for sin but for sinners. Everybody was given a chance to be forgiven as Christ willed it, but sinners and those detached from Goodness are still subject to death, however death is not permanent. Christ's resurrection led the way for a resurrection of all souls, for final judgement, where all men will be judged not according to their beliefs, but their deeds.

Originally posted by Klassified
reply to post by logical7

 

its word play, "they died in Christ"!! That means each has to die themselves? So everyone died to pay and not just Christ. And dead to the law means murder, steal, covet and nothing is sin? And if holy spirit guides them to avoid sin then holy spirit makes each follow the commandments. And the law is back!!

As you wish, makes no difference to me. It's all mythology anyway. But I spent decades as a Christian, studying that bible, and related texts. I know Christianity. I may be a little rusty at times, but I know it. BTW, Romans chapter 7.

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?
2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.

is that the best parable paul can use. Its ill logical.
After husband dying, she will be still a fornicator and after marrying another she is back to law. She cant cheat with new husband too. Right?
Or law is 1st husband? And Jesus pbuh killed it? How? By dying himself? Really?!!
Also who symbolises christians? Husband or woman? Woman is not dead but christians are dead to law in body of Christ.

Man murdered God's Son, He forgave man through Him, And then He resurrected Him, so He forgave the murder as He was alive again, The killing was wiped away. It's like the murder never happened.

The forgiving was love, and thru Him, Jesus, That act of forgiveness flows wiping out all sin in its path.

There was nothing worse that man can do to God than killing His only Son, And even that He un did and forgave.

It shows that all of mankinds troubles are of our own doing, there is nothing we can do to God that God can punish us for that is worse than killing His Son, and even that He forgave.

God is all powerful, He can wipe us all away, but what would be the point if He said He will resurrect us.

Our suffering is at the hands of our own choices and those that succumb to evil. Evil cannot flourish without going thru man first to manifest it's destruction.

You must resist evil, That is the real war and the real battleground.

Originally posted by CesarO
reply to post by jiggerj

 

I thought Jesus died to remove the "original sin" not so that god would start forgiving sins. Any-who why are you trying to fight religion with reason?

There is no original sin except that Adam's disobedience caused us to inherit a nature to sin. Jesus died for all sins, not just Adam's sin. Believers aren't under a penalty of the second death for sinning, thats what the second covenant is about, but sins will still destroy your physical shell. For instance, you're a promiscuous person who bangs alot of people outside wedlock and you get AIDS, the price for your sin is you get a disease that will eventually kill you. Your punishment might not catch up to you today or tomorow or the next day, but it will catch you one day and you'll never see it coming.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by NewAgeMan

 

(don't forget the resurrection part

Oh, I can't forget it. lol This is a point where I think the writers of the bible missed a great opportunity. We know that soldiers were sent to guard the tomb so that no one could steal the dead body of Jesus and claim he had risen. Jesus was spotted by a few of Jesus' followers while all of the soldiers guarding the tomb mysteriously fell asleep. Tell me, who would have been THE GREATEST witnesses of Jesus come back to life?

THE SOLDIERS!

Imagine standing guard while the huge stone covering the tomb magically rolled away, and then Jesus in his death shroud comes walking out, with angels unraveling the cloth. The soldiers would have seen Jesus' wounds and knew that he must have been dead. I know I would have done something in my pants upon seeing that!

Don't forget Joseph of Arimathea, the two men dressed in dazzling white suits... and then don't forget the value of a dollar.

You might not have the whole story.

Have you read the part about the Road to Emmaus? Or when Jesus suddenly revealed his true visage to them, or when he was starved for something to eat?

Might you be missing something...? Is that possible?

reply to post by jiggerj

This is a point where I think the writers of the bible missed a great opportunity.

There were no opportunities Jigger. The writers of the Bible simply report what happened. If you have a problem with the soldiers falling asleep.you'll have to take that up with them. It depends on how you look at it also. The Bible is an intricate intelligent weave from cover to cover the fact that it doesn't take advantage of this opportunity is testimony that it is telling you the truth.

This means that Jesus died on the cross for nothing.

Jesus died because," the wages of sin is death ". Only the blood of Christ could wash away the sins of the whole world.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by jiggerj

 

One has to see it from the POV of Jesus himself, who sympathizes with us, and we him. This is why you need to get it from the horses mouth as they say and read him again, maybe with new eyes.

Remember too that for an enlightened "Bodhisatva" (so to speak) the sorrows and suffering of ALL are also their own sorrow and suffering, but Jesus didn't make that the first/last cause, no it's in the triumphant liberation on the other side of it, for those who share in his death and resurrection, where we also get to share in his triumphant Victory both in this life and in the life to come even from life to life in eternity wherein the spirit of love who is Christ never dies. In facing death and overcoming it, he took away it's sting as they say, and it's very amuzing for those given to understanding.

edit on 8-1-2013 by NewAgeMan because: typo

But do not "Bodhisatvas" not conquerer their on mortality while traveling to become EN-LIGHT-ENED? For me christ conciousness (an egodeath and understanding of nonduality) is a state of mind that have always been here and will always be here no matter what religion/dogma humans or any other spirit create.

The Jesus being god at the same time, is just Jesus achiving a higher level of oneness/connection to god where it becomes hard to separate the man/mind Jesus from god. But what level of connection Jesus had I do not know and it does not really matter. He had the connection he needed to get the mission/job done and I thank him for his work.

But on the other side Paul better have a lot of reasons for what he did and for his sake it better have been sanctioned on all levels. If not then he will not like it when I next time catch up with his soul/spirit because he is gonna fix every small minded idiocy he created with his limited understanding and ego preaching.

reply to post by jiggerj

Three days...

The stone can be rolled away if you still have the lever.. (who's tomb was it anyway)?

"Why do you look for the living among the dead?!" (said with smiles and good humor)

Now jigger look to my avatar (left) and consider how such a one might have celebrated the winter solstice every year thereafter during the three days of the death and resurrection of the sun? Red cloak with white trimmings (over a shiny white suit just like the two men who greeted the women at the tomb..?) maybe..? I don't see why not.. Ho Ho Ho.

Think it through and note also the full moon symbolizing wholeness, but at the "half life" of a perfectly good son (like Isaac to Abraham) - only question is, was there a metaphorical two horned ram caught up in a thicket or a snare nearby.. to serve as the alternative? (OMG now that is funny whoever can understand what I'm saying).

Think it through all the way, and what's really shared, and what was left behind double bound you might say.



And if you had even the slightest idea what I've had to go through to bring you this humorous understanding you would do me the honor of looking into it, even for a second time, with an open mind free from any sort of contemptuous bias prior to the investigation or inquiry, hey what have you got to lose.. you're a funny man wouldn't you like to enjoy the greatest joke ever told and one capable of restoring us to humor even at the expense of all human ignorance and folly and no matter who's to blame, or when, and therefore one fully capable of wiping away the tears from our eyes to reveal in us the smile and the laughter of a child (but an adult one and thus not without wisdom).

Just think about it and look into it and read the Gospels one last time, through and through, for your sake, not for mine, not to save you from anything other than the loss of your sense of humor and thus your very soul. If you refuse to allow God to share it with you, by refusing to comprehend what's been done and what it really means and signifies, if anything at all, but here's the thing

It either means nothing, or it means everything, because it is either meaningful, or it is not there's no middle ground. How we react and respond to it therefore means everything where the meaning of communication is the response you get.

Is it really "Bah humbug" grumpy old man style..? Is that your response? No I think you're here for a reason other than to play the role of the fanatical atheist, and in that regard I think I might know you better than you know yourself.

Anyway..

Cheers,

NAM

------

Cite

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
After the ordeal in Jerusalem, during what I'll call his "happy years", vacationing and travelling (more on that to follow) one wonders how the elder Jesus aka Issa (by some), might have celebrated the winter solstice.. (more on that as well)..

In imitation of Christ..?

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

Saint Nicholas @ Nicaea

Bishop Nicholas Loses His Cool (At The Council of Nicaea)


In AD 325 Emperor Constantine convened the Council of Nicaea, the very first ecumenical council. More than 300 bishops came from all over the Christian world to debate the nature of the Holy Trinity. It was one of the early church's most intense theological questions. Arius, from Egypt, was teaching that Jesus the Son was not equal to God the Father. Arius forcefully argued his position at length. The bishops listened respectfully.
As Arius vigorously continued, Nicholas became more and more agitated. Finally, he could no longer bear what he believed was essential being attacked. The outraged Nicholas got up, crossed the room, and slapped Arius across the face! The bishops were shocked. It was unbelievable that a bishop would lose control and be so hotheaded in such a solemn assembly. They brought Nicholas to Constantine. Constantine said even though it was illegal for anyone to strike another in his presence, in this case, the bishops themselves must determine the punishment.
The bishops stripped Nicholas of his bishop's garments, chained him, and threw him into jail. That would keep Nicholas away from the meeting. When the Council ended a final decision would be made about his future.
Nicholas was ashamed and prayed for forgiveness, though he did not waver in his belief. During the night, Jesus and Mary his Mother, appeared,* asking, "Why are you in jail?" "Because of my love for you," Nicholas replied. Jesus then gave the Book of the Gospels to Nicholas. Mary gave him an omophorion, so Nicholas would again be dressed as a bishop. Now at peace, Nicholas studied the Scriptures for the rest of the night.
When the jailer came in the morning, he found the chains loose on the floor and Nicholas dressed in bishop's robes, quietly reading the Scriptures. When Constantine was told of this, the emperor asked that Nicholas be freed. Nicholas was then fully reinstated as the Bishop of Myra.
The Council of Nicaea agreed with Nicholas' views, deciding the question against Arius. The work of the Council produced the Nicene Creed which to this day many Christians repeat weekly when they stand to say what they believe.

www.stnicholascenter.org...

One wonders what the other Bishop was talking about when he was arguing against the fundamental idea that Jesus as the son is of the same essence as the father, which so outraged the sensibilities of Nicholas that he marched over and in effect bopped him one (or slapped hard across the face with a glove same dif)..?!

I purport that Nicholas, being part of the Council of Nicea, was certainly aware of the story of the elder Jesus, and as such, intentionally set out to mimic what he knew of him, who come winter solstice may have liked nothing more than to deck himself out in a red cloak with white trimmings (in remembrance of his Magnum Opus), giving blessings (even gifts) to children, and dedicating himself to them, and to all, with no more miracles or signs and wonders required, his job completed back in Jerusalem.
Children, and the love of children, and gift giving - how appropriate would that be, when we realize of course that Jesus own childhood might not have been the happiest..

and speaking earlier of the Pope..

Originally posted by NewAgeMan

BBC News
Thursday, 22 December 2005, 05:07 GMT

'Santa Pope' woos Vatican crowds

Pope Benedict XVI appears to be getting into a different kind of Christmas spirit, donning a Santa-style hat for his weekly appearance at the Vatican.
At a chilly St Peter's Square, the Pope draped a red cloak over his shoulders and covered his head with a red velvet hat lined with white fur.

PULLING THE HAT DOWN TIGHT [Shhhhhh!]
(nice white suit too, dazzling, shiney!!)

Am I suggesting here that Father Christmas is or was actually based upon or styled after, the resurrected Jesus? Yes.

Is there a Santa? Only you can be the judge of that,

but spiritually, I'd say that yes, in part Jesus is not only the reason for the season, but also the spirit of Christmas, which used to drive me crazy every year, the unsolved mystery of it, but not any more.
Yes Virginia, there really is a Santa!

Now before you scroll the whole thing by and call me crazy, just stop and review the info and think it all the way through.. open ,mindedly, and then if you don't slam the desk in front of you and burst out laughing in epiphany then you really are just a grumpy old man and all is irretrievably lost anyway to begin with, imho.

Originally posted by jiggerj
I posted this twice in another thread and no one will comment on it. Surely, there must be Christians with a logical opposing view on it. Here is that statement:

The entire Christian faith is based on the premise that Jesus died for our sins. When Jesus died, God started forgiving those that sinned, supposedly. Now, if we come at this from a different direction we find something that should at least make everyone go, "Hmmm."

What if God didn't want to forgive sins at that time? If this god is all-powerful, then nothing and no one could have made him do it. Could the crucifixion of Jesus have FORCED god into forgiving sins? No. Remember, god is GOD! So, the death of Jesus didn't trap god into doing something, one way or the other. If god had wanted to forgive sins at that time he simply would have done it.

This means that Jesus died on the cross for nothing.

I hope I explained this clearly enough. And, I'd love to hear an answer, because as it stands right now what I see is that Christianity is totally debunked and the New Testament should be slipped back into the old testament. If the death of Jesus couldn't force god into doing anything, then we really don't know if god started forgiving sins at that time. And, his resurrection would have been simply another miracle as those in the old testament.

It was not so much that he died for our sins but rather he was resurrected for our sins. You see Jesus made many claims. He said I am the son of God and you are forgiven for your sins by the Grace of God the father. God sent Jesus with a message and to prove that this was his son he died and was resurrected.

The other reason is God felt it time to reconcile himself to us. Meaning to teach us the way to him. The law only taught us what perfect love would be like. The penalty for breaking the law was death. So in essence they were told to put to death all sin. So rather than to make us pay the price for our sins he died for us so that we may believe in Grace, thus removing the guilt and opening a door to the father. He promised if we believed in him he would come to us in spirit to teach us all things. That he would teach us how to put to death sin in our life.

It is through his death we were offered Grace but it is through his life that we receive salvation. The life he lives when he comes to us in spirit.

reply to post by jiggerj


Explanation: S&F!

I am a disfellowshipped baptized brother of the Jehovah's Witnesses religion.

I am no longer a follower of the Abrahamic faiths ... and the word faith is the entire crux of the equation.

However ... If Jesus did exist ... no faith is required at all since it would be a fact!

And yet without faith ... one is DOOMED! [note The Book of Thomas is absent from the bible for a reason]

Personal Disclosure: I DO NOT BELIEVE IN FACTS. I either know them or I don't ... belief aka faith is not required.

This free's me up to believe in what ever the hell I want to ... and peoples beliefs regardless of how dark or perverse they may seem to others should be considered sacred as they ONLY exist inside ones mindseye.

Various science experiments to do with mind over matter experiments aka pschokinetics have shown a very small but statistically significant basis for a limited and focused outcome in the realm of miracles such as precognition and remote veiwing etc.

The apparent rate that we can hope on a miracle happening is between 1 to 3 in 10,000 events.

If one tried for 3 hours [10,000 sec aprox] one might get a 1 to 3 second window of opportunity to manifest a miracle.

That is unrealiable to work off of in the real world MOST of the time since relying on facts works a bazzilion times better ... however ... when one has run out of all other options one is forced to turn to what is available ...and sometimes pure will power and belief pays off unexpected dividends ...because if one just went on the facts one would of taken a far different course of action that would have exacerbated ones problems and increased the likeyhood of annihilation.

Survival .. if at all costs .. is the key to unlocking ones future.

So whatever works OK .. its a wild ride! People could try to be more civilized about that methinks!

Be well!

reply to post by jiggerj


Jesus the man died on the cross and was resurected. You too can die and be resurected. At the moment you believe you are a human living in time and this causes suffering. You have a past to worry about and you have a future to worry about - and this is your suffering, it is the human condition of suffering (mindmade).
The original sin was to be separated from God (the presence of the lord). Humans are separated from the presence (of God) by living in time. It is only when you come to the present moment and forget the past and forget the future that you will feel the presence (of God).
But one must die to feel Gods presence. The person you 'think' you are is lost in thought, lost in time.

So the story about the cruxifiction is about suffering the human condition (every human) where one feels separate. Jesus the man died and became one with God, he realized that he is presence.
You are presence but you 'think' past and future and you always do so presently.

It is all about realizing that you are always present. When you realize that you are always present, your sin will vanish.

reply to post by randyvs

The writers of the Bible simply report what happened. If you have a problem with the soldiers falling asleep.you'll have to take that up with them. It depends on how you look at it also. The Bible is an intricate intelligent weave from cover to cover the fact that it doesn't take advantage of this opportunity is testimony that it is telling you the truth.

I wanted to toss in the comment that the above is why I do give the Bible it's due respect whether Christian or not. Those are pages written a couple thousand years ago and do carry as much a record of history to the times and events as anything else.....and of course, so much else. I've always believed the accuracy of the recording was fallible as man always is. The recording itself though was, as you note, what they honestly believed they saw, experienced personally or were hearing about accurately 2nd to the event.

reply to post by OmegaLogos


I know this is a longshot but do the statistics show that some people are more prone to "miracles"? I am asking since I want to see if I can make a connection of that statistics to people who are experiancing synchronicity for instance 11:11 phenomenon.

Can I see the source of the statistics?

From my point of view:
Miracles are only unexplained phenomena that we humans have been to lazy to quantify and explain in a scientific manner. Need (from the point of the need of everything that exists) seem to be the key to have these phenomena to occur. When the right need is present then the "miracles" are 100% of the time .

reply to post by Itisnowagain

But one must die to feel Gods presence. The person you 'think' you are is lost in thought, lost in time.

You do not have to have the body physicly die to feel a limited version of oneness even while being alive. But you might be talking about "ego death"/"limited mind perception" instead. But really the "you" is not really lost but understands that the "you" is not as limited as "you" thought "you" where .