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Why is no one touching this remark?

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posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 05:46 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
I posted this twice in another thread and no one will comment on it. Surely, there must be Christians with a logical opposing view on it. Here is that statement:

The entire Christian faith is based on the premise that Jesus died for our sins. When Jesus died, God started forgiving those that sinned, supposedly. Now, if we come at this from a different direction we find something that should at least make everyone go, "Hmmm."

What if God didn't want to forgive sins at that time? If this god is all-powerful, then nothing and no one could have made him do it. Could the crucifixion of Jesus have FORCED god into forgiving sins? No. Remember, god is GOD! So, the death of Jesus didn't trap god into doing something, one way or the other. If god had wanted to forgive sins at that time he simply would have done it.

This means that Jesus died on the cross for nothing.

I hope I explained this clearly enough. And, I'd love to hear an answer, because as it stands right now what I see is that Christianity is totally debunked and the New Testament should be slipped back into the old testament. If the death of Jesus couldn't force god into doing anything, then we really don't know if god started forgiving sins at that time. And, his resurrection would have been simply another miracle as those in the old testament.

I'll answer your question, though whether it will fit your preconcieved ideas I do not know.
As I have stated before in other threads, I do not consider myself a Christian for two basic reasons, one of them being this premise you speak of.
You would be able to find my answer to your question on this thread:
ATS "Is Love Logical"
I would love to see whether you and anyone else here believe that love is logical. I even wrote something on there that addresses your signature, so your opinion would be appreciated there as well as anyone else who'd like to add their thoughts.
I would also like to know your thoughts, and ANYONE else's thoughts on what I've shared here:
ATS "Creating 'God'"
It seems no one is willing to impart an opinion there, yours would be interesting, seeing as you aren't completely blind to the logic necessary for legitimate faith.

Though there is no shallow explaination for what you have asked here, I shall attempt one, if you'll look through the links, you'll probably come to see why I feel the need to spell this out:

Jesus came to save us from our sins. No sin = no consequences from sins.
Christians are being lied to on a massive scale. This is what has been prophecied about in the bible called, "The Great Deception".

Are you sure that none are righteous?

There's one Christian deception buster there in the "none righteous" baloney being reiterated all too often for me not to post it, it's all a head trip if one isn't willing to understand the truth.




posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 05:46 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
I'd like to know what 'death' had to do with it? What does death have to do with forgiving sins. Whether Jesus is god or not, what did this procedure of crucifixion do that god couldn't do in the absence of crucifixion?

Think of it as a great work of art, and as a form of communication, and a demonstration, without which, or absent the manifestation, nothing could be known with certainty, whereby all evil is relative, to the victim, and all goodness, mercy, truth and justice the only absolute that we can be absolutely certain of, by receiving the communication, which as C.S. Lewis has pointed out, is so alien to our conceptions of human justice, that it has the genius and all the hallmarks of the fingerprints of the God of love, written all over it.

edit on 8-1-2013 by NewAgeMan because: slight edit



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 05:51 PM
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Throughout the Old Testament, the Hebrews are taught and then depicted atoning for their sins through sacrifice (unblemished lambs or various other animals as noted in the Old Testament) as commanded by God. There came a point at which man's sinfulness was too much for these lower sacrifices to atone for and God, in his desire to make man clean, chose to nullify the sacrificial requirement by offering the only thing that could cover all of the sins of all men, Himself in the form of man, Jesus. Man would only have to claim this atonement through their faith and it would be theirs.

That is a basic explanation of it. God has allowed man the opportunity to claim eternal life by paying the price of death in his stead, man has only to have faith in that action to have his sin debt paid in full.

If this seemed rambling or incoherent, I apologize, as I am adjusting to new work hours and am fighting off exhaustion.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 05:51 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj
I posted this twice in another thread and no one will comment on it. Surely, there must be Christians with a logical opposing view on it. Here is that statement:

The entire Christian faith is based on the premise that Jesus died for our sins. When Jesus died, God started forgiving those that sinned, supposedly. Now, if we come at this from a different direction we find something that should at least make everyone go, "Hmmm."

What if God didn't want to forgive sins at that time? If this god is all-powerful, then nothing and no one could have made him do it. Could the crucifixion of Jesus have FORCED god into forgiving sins? No. Remember, god is GOD! So, the death of Jesus didn't trap god into doing something, one way or the other. If god had wanted to forgive sins at that time he simply would have done it.

This means that Jesus died on the cross for nothing.

I hope I explained this clearly enough. And, I'd love to hear an answer, because as it stands right now what I see is that Christianity is totally debunked and the New Testament should be slipped back into the old testament. If the death of Jesus couldn't force god into doing anything, then we really don't know if god started forgiving sins at that time. And, his resurrection would have been simply another miracle as those in the old testament.


I risk no thing by answering. The Source Entity that created this one of 12 universes has been human many times; it arrived as Jesus (it actually falsely claimed Origin was Jesus). Source Entity has been many humans many times playing both sides of the fence; good guy bad guy. As Jesus he sacreficed himself to himself.
As the Dali Lhama he fled his own people to hide in India watching his gold hoarding come to not. As Hitler he murdered his own servants, intellectuals religious leaders and (high hopes the remnants of the Hibiru). Diablical goodness and evil that must be delt with. As an analysis, a chess game is being played by the same Entity. The only caviat as to outcome is a natural disaster because Earth has Free Will as well.

Ideas spring forth from your first true intent, not the other way around. The human you are is the hard part, conquering your natural trepidation and doubt. Anything is possible and believe it.

The idea of Jesus was well placed; inserted. Understand the God you think you know is a puppet master of supreme capability. There is a bigger and better one that is taking care of the problems caused by letting the child have its playtime.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 05:51 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity

Purely in the interest of debate:

You're assuming "God" always wants to take the easy way out. Cutting corners, so to speak. Do you know what happens when you cut corners?

In any case, if he were HUMAN, yes, he would simply have done it. But he isn't human, is he?


Oh yes, just in the interest of debate. What I'm seeing in the death of Jesus is what amounts to a witch's spell, or a special ritual - something done to bring about a desired effect. But, if god is god - if god is all-powerful - he doesn't need a spell or ritual to increase his power. This renders the death of Jesus irrelevant. Don't you think?



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 05:55 PM
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reply to post by OptimusSubprime
 





God sent Jesus to Earth specifically to die for the sin of man. In the old testament people would have to sacrifice an animal in order to be forgiven for sins. Jesus being sacrificed is symbolic

This is exactly the problem as I see it. What does dying to for sins? Now, you say it is symbolic, which is what I'm thinking, too. But, Jesus giving up his life merely for a symbolic gesture sounds positively ludicrous - doesn't it?



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 05:55 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


You have no comprehension of biblical forgiveness.

Although I like you’re what ifs, what if we all farted rainbows and rode on unicorns? Same logical premise as your post with no bases in reality.

It would do you good to study OT theology to comprehend what God has done through Christ Jesus.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 06:10 PM
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Originally posted by NewAgeMan


Please, try to understand, without approaching the whole thing with utter contempt, prior to investigation, and do not mock his Great Work.


Where do you see mocking and contempt here? What you are asking of me is to be gentle and to accept whatever you believe to be true. I can't do this, NAM. I want the truth.

Now, please try to follow my logic without thinking I'm being sarcastic, because I am not. Jesus didn't need to sacrifice a fish in order to walk on water. He didn't need to light candles and boil an eye of newt in order to heal the sick and raise the dead. Then all of a sudden he needs a death ritual to forgive sins? This makes no sense to me. Does it to you?



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 06:17 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by AfterInfinity

Purely in the interest of debate:

You're assuming "God" always wants to take the easy way out. Cutting corners, so to speak. Do you know what happens when you cut corners?

In any case, if he were HUMAN, yes, he would simply have done it. But he isn't human, is he?


Oh yes, just in the interest of debate. What I'm seeing in the death of Jesus is what amounts to a witch's spell, or a special ritual - something done to bring about a desired effect. But, if god is god - if god is all-powerful - he doesn't need a spell or ritual to increase his power. This renders the death of Jesus irrelevant. Don't you think?

You're absolutely right, Jesus foresaw this "method" of salvation before his death and squashed it, it's still rearing it's ugly wolf head despite its clothing.

Luke 16:31 "But Abraham said, 'If they won't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't listen even if someone rises from the dead.'"

John 5:47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 06:22 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 

I addressed it twice, from two perspectives.

All I was really asking for from you was an open mind free from contempt, prior to investigation or inquiry.

Here's a third way of looking at it anyway, that the "death and resurrection" ritual (don't forget the resurrection part of the equation now.. bearing in mind what I've already indicated) points to an evolutionary principal of transformation and new life, in this case at all levels and even from life to life in eternity.

Read Jesus' own words from the Gospels, and then refer to the things I've said to see if it holds any water, but please, do read his words - you can read all the red parts in one sitting if you're a half decent reader.

P.S. I just ASKED you not to mock, I didn't say you were doing that or had done that, but it would be kind of painful to bring these things to the fore only to have it mocked, like pearls before swine being just trampled under foot ie: it's sacred ground, not sacrosanct, but precious.

edit on 8-1-2013 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 07:06 PM
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reply to post by NewAgeMan
 




Here's a third way of looking at it anyway, that the "death and resurrection" ritual (don't forget the resurrection part of the equation now.. bearing in mind what I've already indicated) points to an evolutionary principal of transformation and new life, in this case at all levels and even from life to life in eternity.


LOL You just don't get it, NAM. I am asking YOU. No amount of words from Jesus will tell me what YOU think? Does it make sense to YOU?

To prove to you that I can admit it when I hear a logic that defends intelligent design (quite well, as a matter of fact) I will create a new thread based on what I just watched in a Hitchins debate. Now, if I can admit this straight forward without getting all defensive about it, then surely you can admit that the death ritual doesn't make sense to YOU.

I'll make that thread in a few minutes.

P.S. I used to read the bible all the time.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 07:07 PM
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Originally posted by guitarplayer
reply to post by jiggerj
 


You have no comprehension of biblical forgiveness.

Although I like you’re what ifs, what if we all farted rainbows and rode on unicorns? Same logical premise as your post with no bases in reality.

It would do you good to study OT theology to comprehend what God has done through Christ Jesus.


Lyre Strummer. The bible was ordained written by mankind?, or a greedy fallen God positing itself as Jesus?
Who has the last laugh of the two thousand years of strife, brutality, war against the human (Whom It was jealous of?) To take all human emotion and then go to Origin and say "Look at what I have acheived".
Allocades all around--NO. Bad Child Spanked.
edit on 8-1-2013 by vethumanbeing because: get the liar spelled correctly as a spoken (greek) instrument



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 07:12 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by NewAgeMan


Please, try to understand, without approaching the whole thing with utter contempt, prior to investigation, and do not mock his Great Work.


Where do you see mocking and contempt here? What you are asking of me is to be gentle and to accept whatever you believe to be true. I can't do this, NAM. I want the truth.

Now, please try to follow my logic without thinking I'm being sarcastic, because I am not. Jesus didn't need to sacrifice a fish in order to walk on water. He didn't need to light candles and boil an eye of newt in order to heal the sick and raise the dead. Then all of a sudden he needs a death ritual to forgive sins? This makes no sense to me. Does it to you?


Think sarcastic. No human in a sane state of mind would wear or subscribe to a "Torture Symbol" (crucifix) to behold and pray to for enlightenment- Sickness disguised as worship? Guilt disguised as a confessional (go in there and fess up your sins) here is how I know who the deviants are in the neighborhood so as to blackmail them. The Jesuits had the better idea of abolishing these terrible canons-and still working at it.
edit on 8-1-2013 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)
edit on 8-1-2013 by vethumanbeing because: inbetween commercial breaks



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 07:20 PM
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reply to post by Tardacus
 





The whole jesus was god thing is a bit dodgey. according to god himself the reason sinners can`t go to heaven is because god can not abide in the presence of sin because he is sinless and perfect and all that. Then how could god possible come to earth in human form? earth is full of sin and sinners and sinful souls, how could god possibly be able to abide in the presence of all this sin here on earth since he himself said that he can`t? if jesus was god than we have proof that god can indeed abide in the presence of sin and therefore there is no reason why sinners can`t go to heaven. if jesus was not god then any human sacrifice would have been good enough to forgive mankind`s sin.

thats a very good point!!



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 07:29 PM
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Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by ZeroReady
I think your logic is somewhat lacking in understanding of the faith.



Isn't the very well known saying: "Jesus died for our sins"?

I'd like to know what 'death' had to do with it? What does death have to do with forgiving sins. Whether Jesus is god or not, what did this procedure of crucifixion do that god couldn't do in the absence of crucifixion?

i have a similar question, going back before creation of Adam. God knew what He is creating and how it will work out. He actually set up his own Son!! or the Son also knew and agreed, thats sadistic!!!
Or all this is just not true, doesnt take much intelligence to see it, but a lot of 'faith' to ignore it!



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 07:46 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 

One has to see it from the POV of Jesus himself, who sympathizes with us, and we him. This is why you need to get it from the horses mouth as they say and read him again, maybe with new eyes.

Remember too that for an enlightened "Bodhisatva" (so to speak) the sorrows and suffering of ALL are also their own sorrow and suffering, but Jesus didn't make that the first/last cause, no it's in the triumphant liberation on the other side of it, for those who share in his death and resurrection, where we also get to share in his triumphant Victory both in this life and in the life to come even from life to life in eternity wherein the spirit of love who is Christ never dies. In facing death and overcoming it, he took away it's sting as they say, and it's very amuzing for those given to understanding.

edit on 8-1-2013 by NewAgeMan because: typo



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 07:47 PM
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reply to post by jiggerj
 


Jigger, there have been volumes of books written on this very subject, because even the majority of Christians have little idea of what Christ was supposed to have accomplished by his death and resurrection. Forgiveness is but a part of that. I'll try to give a brief idea of what was accomplished according to Christian mythology...er...theology.

The old testament(covenant/law) was perpetually binding forever, by god's own word. The only way out from under those rigid laws, and the covenant, was death. So the only way to set the Jews, and afterward the heathens free, was to fulfill all of the covenant, and the laws requirements, and offer the perfect sacrifice, once for all.

So Christ came to do more than forgive sin. He came to set humans free from the law by living perfect under it, and then offering himself as the ultimate sacrifice. Hence, the Christian term, "in Christ". Meaning god sees Christians as dead to the law through Christ, and alive through the resurrection of Christ.

That's as simple as I can put it, and that leaves out a LOT.

edit on 1/8/2013 by Klassified because: spelling



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 07:48 PM
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Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Tardacus
 





The whole jesus was god thing is a bit dodgey. according to god himself the reason sinners can`t go to heaven is because god can not abide in the presence of sin because he is sinless and perfect and all that. Then how could god possible come to earth in human form? earth is full of sin and sinners and sinful souls, how could god possibly be able to abide in the presence of all this sin here on earth since he himself said that he can`t? if jesus was god than we have proof that god can indeed abide in the presence of sin and therefore there is no reason why sinners can`t go to heaven. if jesus was not god then any human sacrifice would have been good enough to forgive mankind`s sin.
thats a very good point!!


There is a very good game being played here and you are buying into it. Sinners? really? Heaven?really?
Could God come to earth in human form? YES and has; the wrong one the fallen one, could not help but fall in frequency thereby stuck. Sin? whos invention-your proceived God? If an innocent without notion of a higher being other than yourself HINT; would you love this manipulating dictator? Of course not.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 07:48 PM
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reply to post by logical7
 

Or else it has it's own logic that you just can't grasp.. call it logical8.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 07:56 PM
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from the OP of the thread Have you been Punk'd by God the Master conspirator?

Originally posted by troubleshooter

God's Conspiracy is to blindside the wise, learned, mighty and noble...
...and most of you have been punk'd.


God first said He would do this through His prophet Isaiah who wrote in the 8th century BC...

"...behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid." Isaiah 29:14


Paul quotes from Isaiah in his first letter to Corinth (one of the undisputed letters of Paul)...

"For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent (learned, intelligent). 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?" 1 Corinthians 1:19-20


He did it by turning the human notions of wisdom on its head...

"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:" 1 Corinthians 1:26-28


God designed a way to reveal Himself that would be rejected by the world's best and brightest...
...and it is still blindsiding those who think they are special because of wealth, education or power.



How did God punk most of you?

He revealed Himself as a babe, conceived and born in scandal...
...as a man He healed the sick, sided with the oppressed and raised the dead...
...He opposed the religious and secular elite...
...who executed Him for telling them who He really was...
...but He then turned this corporate murder into a victory over death itself.


Paul said it like this...
"...the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God...the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men."


Your responses will reveal whether you have been punk'd by God or not.






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