Flag fury ignites some of Northern Ireland's worst violence in 15 years

I am a supporter of a one Ireland cause, with out the violence of course.

The occupation has gone on long enough, if yer ancestors didn't build a cairn among the Fields of Glory, begone.

reply to post by ADVISOR


What occupation? There is no occupation, or do you not agree with democracy?

And couldn't I say that if Americans ancestors didn't live in Wigwams they should 'be gone'

As i said, just another example of the bigotry Northern Irish people have to take from the 'All Ireland' supporters.
They don't care about truth or fairness.

You just couldn't refrain yourself from posting an IRA song could you? Know any vicitims of these scum do you? Or you just like glorifying them?

reply to post by biggilo


Nope, I just don't like the british in Ireland, hence Northern Ireland. Unless I am confused as to history.
Which very well may be...

Ireland is one country, there should be no north and south, that is a modern assumption of the past century.

Below I am posting a link, for others to use for reference, if they are not familiar with the history being discussed.

1917

reply to post by ADVISOR


Recent surveys show that the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland, both Protestant and Catholic want to stay part of the UK and as a second option would rather be an independent entity than part of a United Ireland.

'Ireland' is just the name of the island and as never been a 'country' as such. The only time in history Ireland has been united was when the British isles were.

And I think modern assumptions are to go with the democratic will of the people living in the area.
The IRA are marxists and had strong connection to Col. Gadaffi and the PLO, democracy was never one of their strong points.

Nope, I just don't like the british in Ireland, hence Northern Ireland. Unless I am confused as to history.

reply to post by ADVISOR


So that is every Catholic and Protestant in Northern Ireland.. Who are British btw by choice and not cohersion

Thats nearly two million people...

Btw.. I have very dear friends who were murdered by the IRA.. I would hope you have the sensitivity not to post anymore of their vile filth..

The Easter uprising was nearly a hundred years ago and the queen and the Irish premier recently buried the hatchet and made an historic peace a few month back..

Now if the Btits and Irish can do that.. People like you need to butt out and stfu.. Get over it.. Because everyone else has!

reply to post by EvanB


Point taken.

The will of the people after all, is what is important.

reply to post by ADVISOR

I am a supporter of a one Ireland cause,

On what grounds?

Without giving any sort of reasoned arguement to support such a statement it has absolutely zero credibility.

The occupation has gone on long enough

And what occupation is that?

And what has a song about hurling got to do with the subject in hand?
Do you know what hurling is?

Nope, I just don't like the british in Ireland,

Why?

Seems like bigotry is ok when directed towards Brits.

hence Northern Ireland

Why?

Northern Ireland is part of the UK - in accordance with the wishes of the majority of people in Northern Ireland, including an increasingly large part of the Catholic population there.
It is estimated that around 60% of Ulster Catholics now openly support remaining in the UK and identify more with the UK than they do with The Republic.

Ireland is one country

Says who?

There has never, ever been a United Ireland - show me one time in history when there truly was.

there should be no north and south

Why shouldn't there be?
Again, please give me one good reason.

Originally posted by Freeborn

And what has a song about hurling got to do with the subject in hand?
Do you know what hurling is?

Was trying to figure out the same about the IRA bit...

I see I've drawn yet more fire to myself, foot in mouth syndrome has gotten me good this time.

lol


I honestly must admit I posted under a misguided perception, formed in my own mind that Ireland is one country. No north or south...

To quote a statement to another, I will share here, despite what it may bring;

....would like to say I am sorry for my comment, and apologize directly.

.... I explained my self best I could. My intentions are not hostile or pro IRA, perhaps misguided and obviously ignorant, but if I may requote a sentence used;


do not wish to start off on the wrong foot with you also, and hope the following can also clarify my steping in as I did. Or not, I only hope you read through this.

Let me restart and begin with a bit on myself, I want to share, you don't have to.

My ancestors were Vikings whom adopted the Celtic culture, I'm certain you may be familiar with that history.

Having an armigerous family, and an interest in history, it didn't take me long to acquire that same appreciation.

To me, I see the whole of Éire, as one country. Not as a north or south...perhaps an archaic sentiment...I know, but still.

Having been lucky enough to have felt her rain fall upon me, while stopping there during deployment, it was as a blessing.

You see, to me Ireland still holds a romantic place in my heart, despite the bloodshed...

I may be born and raised in America, but my soul longs for those lands, of Celtic legend.

It can not be conveyed in mere words, but that I hope shows, from where I come in this matter.

I've read it as such and believe it to be true;

Three strange things in the world:
loving war more than peace,
loving excess more than sufficiency,
and loving falsehood more than truth.

Thank you for your time, and patience.

ADVISOR

With that, I bow out of this thread and leave it to those whom it regards.

Originally posted by ADVISOR

Originally posted by Freeborn

And what has a song about hurling got to do with the subject in hand?
Do you know what hurling is?

Was trying to figure out the same about the IRA bit...

I see I've drawn yet more fire to myself, foot in mouth syndrome has gotten me good this time.

lol


I honestly must admit I posted under a misguided perception, formed in my own mind that Ireland is one country. No north or south...

To quote a statement to another, I will share here, despite what it may bring;

....would like to say I am sorry for my comment, and apologize directly.

.... I explained my self best I could. My intentions are not hostile or pro IRA, perhaps misguided and obviously ignorant, but if I may requote a sentence used;


do not wish to start off on the wrong foot with you also, and hope the following can also clarify my steping in as I did. Or not, I only hope you read through this.

Let me restart and begin with a bit on myself, I want to share, you don't have to.

My ancestors were Vikings whom adopted the Celtic culture, I'm certain you may be familiar with that history.

Having an armigerous family, and an interest in history, it didn't take me long to acquire that same appreciation.

To me, I see the whole of Éire, as one country. Not as a north or south...perhaps an archaic sentiment...I know, but still.

Having been lucky enough to have felt her rain fall upon me, while stopping there during deployment, it was as a blessing.

You see, to me Ireland still holds a romantic place in my heart, despite the bloodshed...

I may be born and raised in America, but my soul longs for those lands, of Celtic legend.

It can not be conveyed in mere words, but that I hope shows, from where I come in this matter.

I've read it as such and believe it to be true;

Three strange things in the world:
loving war more than peace,
loving excess more than sufficiency,
and loving falsehood more than truth.

Thank you for your time, and patience.

ADVISOR

With that, I bow out of this thread and leave it to those whom it regards.

I think your confusions comes from geographical locations.

You have the British Isles made up of two large Islands...

Great Britian - made up of England, Scotland, Wales
Ireland - made up of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland

Here comes the confusing part. You have the sovereign state called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. 4 countries united as 1. That tends to be recognised by the UN and the rest of the world officially as a country, you know it as the UK or Great Britian (GB) for short.

For example although I was born in England I don't have an English passport, I'm British and have a British passport recognised by NATO and the UN.

Originally posted by EvanB
Northern Ireland is VERY much part of Great Britain.. The vast majority of the people of Ulster want to remain British and not become a part of the Republic.. This now includes a lot of Catholics who have seen the economy of the Republic torn apart due to the collapsing EU and Euro dollar..
Northern Ireland is also self governing with its own parliament and Westminster has hardly a say in any Northern Irish affairs, though Ulster plays a full and active role in UK life including the Armed Forces..

In my experience most Protestants are only religious by name only however a lot are.. The Loyalist community (protestant) in my experience are UBER British.. They take their loyalism VERY seriously and is the only part of the UK where you will see the Union Jack fly from every house.. Even the curbs on the roads are painted red white and blue!.. At the end of the night in pubs you would be made to stand and sing God save the queen or get your head kicked in!

In Catholic areas it is the reverse.. Tricolour flags everywhere.. The curbs painted in the tri colours.... You are left with no illusions what area you are in.. And dont get me started on marching season! Lol

Well, that makes more sense! So the country is basically split in two. I can certainly understand the economic concerns, considering how things are going here thanks to the clown in office....but I digress.

So is it more political? Half that and half religious? Old clannish issues? Mix of the above? Sounds stressful. I can sympathize. Here, we have the federal government trying to take everything over, when matters concerning states were meant to be left to the states. Different states disagree with one another, too, which makes things more interesting. Then you have the "deliberately started) cultural disagreements, over anything from race to religion to income to region....you get the idea.

Ever get the idea that a lot of people are played by a very few, in just about any country you can visit? People need to cut the strings, and tell the puppeteers where to go. Hope things settle there, and don't get worse.

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes

Originally posted by Carreau
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

From what I've been able to gather, prior to the riots, the UK Flag was flown over the town hall. Someone decided to stop flying the flag. Since Northern Ireland has two very vocal groups (1 being pro British, 1 being Pro Irish), the Pro British Group got upset that the Union Jack was lowered and staged protests. The protests turned violent with the help of union leaders. So more police were called in, and then the rock throwing, molatov cocktail throwing started and its lasted for 6 nights in a row.

I'm sure the British/Irish ATS members can go into greater detail but from an outsider point of view and I am not taking sides because I don't know the whole story just what I've been able to read on the internet reports. I hoped that helped.

That's what it sounded like to me. Have more info as well, down lower. Appreciated! I know there has been unrest there for a long time.

Originally posted by EvanB
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

It is a long sorry story Im afraid.. But what it amounts too is that in Nothern Ireland you have two camps: the Protestants who class themselves as British.. And Catholics who class themselves as Irish..

The Catholics were treated as second class citizens.. There was even legislation in the Northern Irish parliament that basically was a form of apartheid against the Catholics.. It came to a head in the late 60's when a peaceful protest was ambushed by the police.. This caused mass riots thus the Army was sent in to keep both sides apart... Things very quickly deterorated as the Catholics saw us as an occupying force and started to fight us.. The loyalist also responded by setting up their own paramilitary organisations.. Of which the UVF is one of...
What is not commonly known however is that both sides paramilitaries evolved into criminal gangs that held their respective communities to ransom by fear and intimidation.. They were funded by naive Americans who thought they were helping out their ancestral people.. But in reality they were lining the pockets of mafia type organisations..
Now.. Because of the peace treaty.. These organisations have lost much power and prestige.. And they want it back.. Plus the economic situation draws people to their cause..

So it seems to be as much a religious matter as a political one. I did have some idea that there was a lot of criminal activity, from both sides. So, we have all this mess, and it settles down, and now people want to stir it up again? Wow.... Wouldn't it be nice if leadership (any, not just there) cared more about what was best for their people, rather than how much power and control they had?

Originally posted by EvanB

Originally posted by cavtrooper7
reply to post by EvanB

 

Pardon my stupidity but are you saying Ireland is made up of 2 countries?
I didn't know about this.

Yes

Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland

So, what involvement, if any, does Great Britain have there? Why would they be flying a British flag, if these are separate countries? I have to say, as one not Catholic, I tend to side more with the Irish on this one. It's their land, and their choice how they worship. Bloodlines do play in that, too, as there is a lot of Scotch/Irish in my family. I still get annoyed that Scotland isn't independent. There should be a better way than fighting and riots, though. With the temperaments in that part of the world (my ancestors, and I have the temper, too!), that just makes things worse and worse.

Appreciate the info.

You do realise why Scotland isn't independent? The final union we have today wasn't a hostile merger.

1707 The Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland united to form one Kingdom. This is because we shared a monarchy and King James VI of Scotland inherited the English throne. In turn a union of two separate Parliaments was also made. Both political establishments came to support the cause.

Don't quote me on this but I believe the main reason for the merger from Scotland's point of view was due to trade within the empire which meant ££££.

Originally posted by biggilo
You say 'It's their land' How so? My ancestors have lived here 800 years, how does this give someone else the right to it?

And as for 'their choice how they worship' you do realise that under UK rule you have the right to worship as you please, it is the IRISH side who try to dictate how we worship.. The 'Republicans (or Irish if you prefer) have spent the past 50 years ethnically cleansing people who don't follow their way of Christianity (Catholicism) out of Northern Ireland.
If you care to see past terrorist propaganda and look for the TRUTH you will see that Catholics were never intimidated in their worship, always welcomed into Protestant communities if they moved there and were welcomed into organisations such as the RUC.

Didn't know that, but appreciate the correction. I could certainly see that, considering how the RCC has behaved in the past. That's why I am asking questions, to hear the facts, not the junk you can find searching. This side says one thing, that says another. I guess what I am saying is that people should, on a more local basis, be able to decide on their own government. That's how it is supposed to work here, with each state governing itself, save for things that concern the whole nation. Hasn't been like that for some time, though. If some areas want British rule, and others want Irish, they should be able to decide that without all the fighting.

Originally posted by biggilo
When you say 'Scotch Irish' are you perhaps one of these foreigners who is confused about their heritage? The Northern Irish people are ethnically referred to as 'Ulster Scots', most Scottish who settled Ireland settled it in the North East, i.e Northern Ireland and as an example, many of the USAs founding fathers and subsequent Presidents were 'Ulster Scots'.
It is quite common for this mistake to happen, yet I still find even when corrected as it doesn't suit their 'views' that people tend to ignore this fact and carry on as if they are 'Irish'

Actually, that's why I stated "Scotch-Irish". There are some Scottish (from Scotland), some Ulster Scots, and some actual Irish. Little of all of it in the family tree. More Scottish (including Ulster), but some Irish as well. My parents discussed that very issue you mention many times. Personally, I would love to visit both places, see the ancestral lands, and get a better feel for where we came from. I will say, though, I identify mostly with the Scottish, which is odd, because I look more German; some of that in there, too. Don't act it, though. My sister acts German, and looks more "British Isles". Genes are funny things.

Originally posted by biggilo
But, hey after 34 years on this planet I know that people don't care about the truth in Northern Ireland, the truth isn't fashionable enough, much more cool to support the poor old terrorist out trying to bomb children on their way to a Christmas lunch with their parents.

Bomb attack on Police mans family

edit on 10-1-2013 by biggilo because: (no reason given)

No, this person wants the truth. However it looks, the truth is always better than a lie. If you know some factual sources, would appreciate links, because I am interested in the details of this conflict.

I will check the one you did post. Thanks for the information.

Originally posted by tdk84
You do realise why Scotland isn't independent? The final union we have today wasn't a hostile merger.

1707 The Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland united to form one Kingdom. This is because we shared a monarchy and King James VI of Scotland inherited the English throne. In turn a union of two separate Parliaments was also made. Both political establishments came to support the cause.

Don't quote me on this but I believe the main reason for the merger from Scotland's point of view was due to trade within the empire which meant ££££.

edit on 10-1-2013 by tdk84 because: (no reason given)

I have heard conflicting stories on that one. There was certainly some bad blood there in the past, which (from comments I have heard from Scottish people on another site) isn't all forgotten. I always had the idea that they were one because the English were not defeated and the bloodshed was too high. I could easily be mistaken, though. Finding unbiased history these days is difficult, and that goes for that of my country as well. These days, what they teach kids in school is nothing like what we learned when I was a child. Seems we get one over simplified version or another, depending on the bias of the person offering it.

Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes

Originally posted by tdk84
You do realise why Scotland isn't independent? The final union we have today wasn't a hostile merger.

1707 The Kingdom of England and the Kingdom of Scotland united to form one Kingdom. This is because we shared a monarchy and King James VI of Scotland inherited the English throne. In turn a union of two separate Parliaments was also made. Both political establishments came to support the cause.

Don't quote me on this but I believe the main reason for the merger from Scotland's point of view was due to trade within the empire which meant ££££.

edit on 10-1-2013 by tdk84 because: (no reason given)

I have heard conflicting stories on that one. There was certainly some bad blood there in the past, which (from comments I have heard from Scottish people on another site) isn't all forgotten. I always had the idea that they were one because the English were not defeated and the bloodshed was too high. I could easily be mistaken, though. Finding unbiased history these days is difficult, and that goes for that of my country as well. These days, what they teach kids in school is nothing like what we learned when I was a child. Seems we get one over simplified version or another, depending on the bias of the person offering it.

That's because it started as a hostile takeover. Ironic that it was finally a Scotsman who united us. But anyway we digress slightly.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


If you really want to get down to it, the truth of the matter is there is a lot of small minded little bigots running around Ireland (as a whole). From all communities.

The Republicans love nothing more than offending Unionists in any way they can think of as well as murdering, bombing them etc.

Orangemen and Loyalists like running around banging drums to annoy and sometimes intimidate Republicans.

In the Republic of Ireland the Catholic church has way too much power and say
Woman dies at Galway Hospital

And, as for Northern Ireland, well we are second only to the USA in the number of people per head who believe in creationism thanks to all the 'hard line' protestants ('Free Presbyterians' for example)

With all these religious fanatics and politicised bigots running around there truly isn't going to be a resolution to all this without some sort of bloodshed unfortunately.

Originally posted by tdk84
That's because it started as a hostile takeover. Ironic that it was finally a Scotsman who united us. But anyway we digress slightly.

Well, sort of. Same area of the world, and British involved in both cases. I do admire the Scottish people, though. Strong roots, that I am very proud of. Not everyone that could strike fear into the hearts of the Romans, causing them to build a wall.

Originally posted by biggilo
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

If you really want to get down to it, the truth of the matter is there is a lot of small minded little bigots running around Ireland (as a whole). From all communities.

The Republicans love nothing more than offending Unionists in any way they can think of as well as murdering, bombing them etc.

Orangemen and Loyalists like running around banging drums to annoy and sometimes intimidate Republicans.

In the Republic of Ireland the Catholic church has way too much power and say
Woman dies at Galway Hospital

And, as for Northern Ireland, well we are second only to the USA in the number of people per head who believe in creationism thanks to all the 'hard line' protestants ('Free Presbyterians' for example)

With all these religious fanatics and politicised bigots running around there truly isn't going to be a resolution to all this without some sort of bloodshed unfortunately.

That's usually the way of things. People from both sides that don't want a peaceful solution, messing things up for the rest.

Ok, so a Republican there is Irish/Catholic. Unionist/Loyalist would be pro-British. What on Earth is an Orangeman? Never heard that term before.

On that case, from what I heard, she wasn't actually seeking an abortion. Of course, with all the conflicting stories, we might not have heard the truth from wither side.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


Orangemen are a group of Unionists/Loyalists (claiming to represent all Unionists but not!) who like to celebrate a victory in a battle which took place in the year 1690. The 'marching season' Evan referred to earlier relates to this, and it is a time of year when a number of parades happen leading up to the 12 July when they basically close the whole country down so they can go around banging drums and marching around in silly bowler hats and sashes. They like to think they have the support from the whole protestant community but it wouldn't even be anywhere near half (not sure of exact figures)
Battle of the Boyne
Orange Order Wiki
Orange Order website
Marching season 2012 in pictures

In the fairly distant past you may have seen some respectable gents in the Orange Order but it has been said that the last true Gentleman in the Orange Order was Sir Robin Kinihan.
Robin Kinihan

Think of it as a mechanism used to highlight and exaggerate differences and keep old wounds open.

If they chose to it could be an annual event attracting large numbers of tourists and encompassing the whole community, but that could only lose them some power.

reply to post by biggilo


Ah, makes sense. Appreciated. As always, it boils down to power issues. If more people could see through all of that, they might lose some of the ability to stir things up.

Just to clarify, as reading through I havn't seen it answered, the removal of the flag isn't a permanent one;it's to bring city hall into line with the rest of the uk. Only flying it on the normal designated days (17 if I remember correctly). I know someone's queried this but I can't remember who so there you have it. I have noticed this is a bit of info that seems to me to be left out of some news coverage (ITN) in particular. I have to say, I can see it as a progressive "power-sharing" kind of act in this sense. Personally, I hadn't realised it was flown out of porportion with the rest of the UK until this occured.

Also, catholic and protestant isn't really the divisonary lines that some people should maybe be thinking in terms of; unionist and nationalist would be more accurate for this debate. I know a few protestants who are bordering on personally embarrased at the image this farse is presenting of their supposed culture. I would fit into the catholic pigeon-hole through birth, and quiet honestly I feel pity for the disenfranchised and feckless youth who have been stirred up by their own politicians (and don't forget, while it's the loyalist paramilitaries who are now the figure heads, it was the respectible politcians who incited fear of a loss of idenitiy in their electorate, and then washed their hands of the senario when it escelated). These people are scum, sure, but they come from such a deprived background.

Basically, don't loose hope with us; Northern ireland may still be a divided country; but the division I see is between the backward sectarian bigots, and the new generation of thinkers who want to have civility and normality. The past can't (and rightly shouldn't) be forgotten, but the future is a lot more important.