Flag fury ignites some of Northern Ireland's worst violence in 15 years

This is Ireland not Britain, we are militarily occupied by a foreign entity who control 6 of our northern counties, its about time the middle finger was raised to those who have treated the Irish citizens of this country like dirt. In the words of Bobby Sands "we are seeing the rising of the moon".

reply to post by SeekandYeShallFind


Please show where you are occupied.. There are bases.. But there are bases in England too.. Does this make us occpied as well?.. After all.. All of Britain.. Which includes NI whether you like it or not.. Has bases.. However.. When was the last time you saw the Army on patrol??

You are not occupied.. If the people of Northern Ireland wanted to be united then it would have happened by now.. Maybe it will in the future?.. I would hope so.. But it wont happen without the consent of the majority.. And they dont have it at present

reply to post by EvanB


Pardon my stupidity but are you saying Ireland is made up of 2 countries?
I didn't know about this.

reply to post by cavtrooper7


Ireland is it's own country, Northern Ireland is part of the UK, two separate countries.

reply to post by Carreau


Can you explain to those of us not familiar what, exactly, it is that they are fighting over? Trying to research it seems to yield links biased one way or another. What I am looking for is the basic issues, what each side claims, etc. Thanks.

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


From what I've been able to gather, prior to the riots, the UK Flag was flown over the town hall. Someone decided to stop flying the flag. Since Northern Ireland has two very vocal groups (1 being pro British, 1 being Pro Irish), the Pro British Group got upset that the Union Jack was lowered and staged protests. The protests turned violent with the help of union leaders. So more police were called in, and then the rock throwing, molatov cocktail throwing started and its lasted for 6 nights in a row.

I'm sure the British/Irish ATS members can go into greater detail but from an outsider point of view and I am not taking sides because I don't know the whole story just what I've been able to read on the internet reports. I hoped that helped.

Originally posted by cavtrooper7
reply to post by EvanB

 

Pardon my stupidity but are you saying Ireland is made up of 2 countries?
I didn't know about this.

Yes

Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


It is a long sorry story Im afraid.. But what it amounts too is that in Nothern Ireland you have two camps: the Protestants who class themselves as British.. And Catholics who class themselves as Irish..

The Catholics were treated as second class citizens.. There was even legislation in the Northern Irish parliament that basically was a form of apartheid against the Catholics.. It came to a head in the late 60's when a peaceful protest was ambushed by the police.. This caused mass riots thus the Army was sent in to keep both sides apart... Things very quickly deterorated as the Catholics saw us as an occupying force and started to fight us.. The loyalist also responded by setting up their own paramilitary organisations.. Of which the UVF is one of...
What is not commonly known however is that both sides paramilitaries evolved into criminal gangs that held their respective communities to ransom by fear and intimidation.. They were funded by naive Americans who thought they were helping out their ancestral people.. But in reality they were lining the pockets of mafia type organisations..
Now.. Because of the peace treaty.. These organisations have lost much power and prestige.. And they want it back.. Plus the economic situation draws people to their cause..

reply to post by EvanB


You are quite correct.

The paramilitaries on both sides became nothing more than racketeers who were more interested in generating profit through their drug and gun running, extortion rackets, prostitution etc than any political ideal.
They ruled their respective communities through fear whilst exploiting the natural romantic Irish nature.

Not everything is prefect in Ulster, far from it, and to be fair no-one claims it is.
But, and it's a massive but, great improvements have been made - and the paramilitaries can not be allowed to hinder that progress.

I must admit, I don't really understand all this - why are they stopping flying The Union Flag?
I like to see both The Flag Of St. George and The Union Flag over government buildings etc here in England.
Why not fly The Ulster Banner and The Union Flag in Northern Ireland?

Especially at a time when support for The Union is on the increase in the so called Catholic Nationalist communities, (recent survey's suggest that approximately 60% of Northern Irish Catholics now openly support continued membership of the UK).

Originally posted by Freeborn


Especially at a time when support for The Union is on the increase in the so called Catholic Nationalist communities, (recent survey's suggest that approximately 60% of Northern Irish Catholics now openly support continued membership of the UK).

Yes I have close friends who live near Belfast and are staunch Catholics. They have stated to me they would never want the north to become part of the south and the reason they gave was that Britain provides so many benifits to them which they would not get from Eire.

I think also the recent collapse of the Irish economy would make a lot of people in the north glad they weren't part of the south.

Having said all that, I live in Central Scotland and we have sectarian divide here between Catholic and Protestant. It never spills onto the street in violence but there have been violent assaults carried out because of it.

Since I am a supporter of Scottish independence I would like to see the Union Flag removed and replaced with the Saltire, but at Rangers football games (protestant supporters) they fly the union flag as much as possible and bang on about staying part of the union.

Funny thing is when it comes to football I'm a Rangers fan

Sometimes it feels you have to pick one side or the other for wrong reasons.

reply to post by Freeborn


I am from Northern Ireland and I am a Unionist, I like to make a point of stating there is a difference between Unionists and Loyalists (mostly in IQ).

I do not support any form of violence but I do support peaceful protest.

This is about so much more than just a flag flying over City Hall, think the 'straw that broke the camels back'.

The Union flag as far as I am aware flew over Belfast City Hall everyday because of the disproportionate amount of Ulstermen who fought and died in the two World Wars.

The 'Good Friday Agreement' was completely one sided and so for the past 14 years Unionists and Loyalists have seen an erosion of their identity and rights. I personally was refused planning permission to build a house in the village I was born and grew up in because there wasn't enough people of the 'other' religion living there and so planning was only being given to that group, in any other country this is called Ethnic cleansing (and I haven't even begun on how the IRA ethnically cleansed certain Counties)

We have 'Positive Discrimination' enshrined in law, this means whether you are the right person for a job or not you won't get it unless you are the right religion, this is especially enforced within the police, where 50% of recruits must be Catholic with 50% being 'Other' even though there is approx 40-45% of the population being Catholic.
I am an Atheist, yet, as I went to a state school I get classed as a Protestant for recruitment purposes. to explain that further as a lot of you will have only IRA propaganda to go on, Catholics tended to segregate themselves into Church run (Catholic only) schools whereas State schools as with the rest of the UK allowed anyone to attend. If you were a Catholic at a state school unless you specify otherwise when seeking employment you get classed as a Protestant as well.

In recent months and years Dissident Republicans have been increasing their attacks, not long ago a prison officer was murdered on his way to work by them and events like this are losing IRA/Sinn Fein support, so you can see why them having the flag removed (knowing how inflammatory and insulting it was) helps them hold on to some of their supporters.

Prison Officer murdered

I am also at a loss to understand why the Alliance Party, a supposed 'cross community' party and whose only MP was elected in EAST BELFAST (where the trouble is) chose to pick sides in the vote instead of abstaining, and when they picked a side they picked that of ones not in their constituency. Would a truly neutral party not of stayed out of this? And Politicians lying to get elected, nothing new there, but this affects much more than if we have top pay uni tuition fees or not, this is about National Identity, so you can understand anger towards the 'Alliance Party'

I can't see how there is going to be a way back from this, every day that goes past is hardening attitudes on all sides. The Police have actually said they are losing patience with them.
Last night on the news it was shown how bricks got thrown at peaceful protesters returning home, and the police response, 2 Land Rover units moved on those throwing bricks and 40+ Land Rovers moved on the protesters and people wonder about why they then fight against the police.

Yes, I am embarrassed by the thugs out rioting, they do not support me but I do understand why they are doing it. I heard it before, shoe is on the other foot now, and this is true, but to all those who think a United Ireland is something they want to live to see, you do realise that will only come around following a civil war and it would be a very bloody one at that...you sure you want to live through that?, I don't..

From a conspiracy point of view they are going to use all this as an excuse to limit/attack/monitor social networks even further.

reply to post by biggilo


I spent 3.5 years on special ops in Ulster. Then when I left the forces the first time I went to live in Newtownards and Bangor where my kids still live..

I had plenty of trouble from the paramilitaries. Once I even had one guy sweep my house incase it was bugged lol.. They did not trust me.. Very paranoid wee men.. There is another story I wont go into here.. But suffice to say I ended up having to come back to England rather quickly!

I cannot tell you how much I hate the UVF/UDA/RHC/PIRA/INLA etc.. They are all braindead, violent scum.. I feel sorry for the hard working people who have to suffer them..

reply to post by EvanB


The thing with the Loyalist paramilitaries is they are the same sorts of people who, if born anywhere else in UK would of been drug dealers, gangsters etc.
There never really has been a 'Loyalist cause' like the Republicans had (most Catholics even though disagreeing with the violence at least sympathised slightly with the movement). Think of all the graduate IRA bomb makers etc., most loyalist paramilitaries would struggle to spell the word graduate.
The Loyalist hoodlums just used the Troubles as an excuse for their drug dealing and racketeering and had virtually ZERO support from their communities.

But, it is this that I fear is going to change, an emergence of perhaps a new loyalist group, properly trained.

I always remember a guy I went to school with, he took up a commission in the Royal Marines (Last I heard he was a Captain) and he always maintained that if it went the 'wrong' way over here he would leave the Marines and get involved. It doesn't take very many people like that to cause a lot of damage and harm, and this is before we even think about the Royal Irish Regiment (not long ago the biggest infantry regiment in the British Army) most of whom will also sympathise with the flag protesters.

I really can't see how this is going to get resolved, Hilary Clinton is even mouthing off about democracy so the flag can't go back up.

reply to post by biggilo


I can see my son getting involved too.. He is an engineering student but was bought up around the UVF.. The OC of North Down used to come around my house quite often and now my ex wife is married to a UVF gopher who did time for armed robbery..

I hope for my kids sake and yours that this gets resolved.. The last thing you guys need is OP Banner 2.0..

You are right about the RIR.. I knew some who were involved in the paramilitaries and can remember instances of them passing on intelligence to them.. I have no doubt at all that if the shtf they would step up

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by SeekandYeShallFind

 

You do know I was only quoting what another said.

I think he has a point though, if you look at the people who are doing the rioting do any of them look like to you that they know what the Easter Rising was.

Rioting is not a way to get things changed, its just an excuse for the young lads in Falls Road to go out and have a bit of fun for the night.

In this case it's the Shankhill Road....the Falls is the other side of the coin...not saying they havn't had their fair share of stone and Petrol bomb Olympics....

It's Nothing to do with allegiance to the Crown...it's about controlling your Patch to do whatever you want...ie drug dealing and money laundering etc, they a criminals.....The Loyalist...Not to be confused with someone who practices the protestant faith....Nothing Godly about these animals..

They believe in a cause, yeah, what would that cause be because i cant see one...tell me one who went on hunger strike for his cause and actually carried it through.....None....because they have nothing to believe in...Moneys and greed are their cause.
They thrive on chaos to maintain their lifestyles in which they have become accustomed...They have no Honour and never will have.....They have been moving into Scotland and England for years bringing their self styled Brand of patriotism, Drugs, extortion and threats with them...i'll say one thing...intimidation and Murder is their game, and they a bloody good at it....

reply to post by Soloprotocol


Surprisingly very little trouble on the Shankill Road, but then it is just an enclave in the predominately Catholic West Belfast, most of the trouble is in East Belfast, Newtownards Road area to be specific.

It is also being reported that councils in other towns of Northern Ireland are now going to hold votes in order to fly the Union Flag every day in response to this, these are councils who didn't already.

For some reason the 'Equality commission' have to approve this before a vote takes place..so it's ok to vote to take them down but maybe not if you want to vote to put them up..very one sided.

reply to post by biggilo


You make some insightful, informative and salient points for which I am very grateful.

I really don't understand why they have decided to stop flying The Union Flag.
Ulster is part of The Union and will remain so as long as the majority of people there want it to - that is not negotiable.

Both The Flag Of St George and The Union Flag fly above my local town hall, why should it be any different anywhere else in the UK?

As much as I understand the reasoning behing 'positive discrimination' it's something I could never support - personally I would find it insulting and demeaning.
I have many friends in Northern Ireland and none of them support such a policy.

Catholics tended to segregate themselves into Church run (Catholic only) schools whereas State schools as with the rest of the UK allowed anyone to attend.

Don't know about Wales and Scotland but it's exactly the same here in England - I'm sure I've read recently that all Catholic schools will have to allot so many places to non-Catholics sometime soon.

Sectarianism has never really been a problem here in England - I was nominally raised a Catholic, all my Grandparents came from The Republic, yet it was never an issue in my upbringing.
The majority of my friends are Protestants - sure there's the occassional bit of banter between us but there's no problems.
I am a proud Englishman and a supporter of The Union - yet I support Celtic F.C.

In recent months and years Dissident Republicans have been increasing their attacks,

Yes, and they must be resisted at all costs - but it's worth mentioning that it is only a very small minority that want to see a return of The Troubles etc.

The thing with the Loyalist paramilitaries is they are the same sorts of people who, if born anywhere else in UK would of been drug dealers, gangsters etc.

Having met one or two I can only say I couldn't agree with you more.

The same could also be said of the vast majority of the Nationalist paramilitaries but again you are correct in pointing out that they had a bit of support from the more educated classes etc and disgracefully The Church.

I think Evan has the truth of it - all the paramilitaries are nothing but scum - but I think it's vitally important that we don't bury our heads in the sand and ignore the sometimes genuine cares and concerns that are being voiced by people in Ulster just because it doesn't fit in with the image that the politicians wish to portray.

What advancements that have been made are as a result of the openness and honesty of the Ulster people and a desire to move forwards whilst respecting each other's culture and heritage.
Northern Ireland still has a long way to go - and it most certainly won't get there if the PC Brigade take control, as seems to be the case having looked at the Equality Commission for Northern Ireland etc.
All these fools will do will drive people back to the paramilitaries

Originally posted by Carreau
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

From what I've been able to gather, prior to the riots, the UK Flag was flown over the town hall. Someone decided to stop flying the flag. Since Northern Ireland has two very vocal groups (1 being pro British, 1 being Pro Irish), the Pro British Group got upset that the Union Jack was lowered and staged protests. The protests turned violent with the help of union leaders. So more police were called in, and then the rock throwing, molatov cocktail throwing started and its lasted for 6 nights in a row.

I'm sure the British/Irish ATS members can go into greater detail but from an outsider point of view and I am not taking sides because I don't know the whole story just what I've been able to read on the internet reports. I hoped that helped.

That's what it sounded like to me. Have more info as well, down lower. Appreciated! I know there has been unrest there for a long time.

Originally posted by EvanB
reply to post by LadyGreenEyes

 

It is a long sorry story Im afraid.. But what it amounts too is that in Nothern Ireland you have two camps: the Protestants who class themselves as British.. And Catholics who class themselves as Irish..

The Catholics were treated as second class citizens.. There was even legislation in the Northern Irish parliament that basically was a form of apartheid against the Catholics.. It came to a head in the late 60's when a peaceful protest was ambushed by the police.. This caused mass riots thus the Army was sent in to keep both sides apart... Things very quickly deterorated as the Catholics saw us as an occupying force and started to fight us.. The loyalist also responded by setting up their own paramilitary organisations.. Of which the UVF is one of...
What is not commonly known however is that both sides paramilitaries evolved into criminal gangs that held their respective communities to ransom by fear and intimidation.. They were funded by naive Americans who thought they were helping out their ancestral people.. But in reality they were lining the pockets of mafia type organisations..
Now.. Because of the peace treaty.. These organisations have lost much power and prestige.. And they want it back.. Plus the economic situation draws people to their cause..

So it seems to be as much a religious matter as a political one. I did have some idea that there was a lot of criminal activity, from both sides. So, we have all this mess, and it settles down, and now people want to stir it up again? Wow.... Wouldn't it be nice if leadership (any, not just there) cared more about what was best for their people, rather than how much power and control they had?

Originally posted by EvanB

Originally posted by cavtrooper7
reply to post by EvanB

 

Pardon my stupidity but are you saying Ireland is made up of 2 countries?
I didn't know about this.

Yes

Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland

So, what involvement, if any, does Great Britain have there? Why would they be flying a British flag, if these are separate countries? I have to say, as one not Catholic, I tend to side more with the Irish on this one. It's their land, and their choice how they worship. Bloodlines do play in that, too, as there is a lot of Scotch/Irish in my family. I still get annoyed that Scotland isn't independent. There should be a better way than fighting and riots, though. With the temperaments in that part of the world (my ancestors, and I have the temper, too!), that just makes things worse and worse.

Appreciate the info.

So, what involvement, if any, does Great Britain have there? Why would they be flying a British flag, if these are separate countries? I have to say, as one not Catholic, I tend to side more with the Irish on this one. It's their land, and their choice how they worship. Bloodlines do play in that, too, as there is a lot of Scotch/Irish in my family. I still get annoyed that Scotland isn't independent. There should be a better way than fighting and riots, though. With the temperaments in that part of the world (my ancestors, and I have the temper, too!), that just makes things worse and worse. 

reply to post by LadyGreenEyes


Northern Ireland is VERY much part of Great Britain.. The vast majority of the people of Ulster want to remain British and not become a part of the Republic.. This now includes a lot of Catholics who have seen the economy of the Republic torn apart due to the collapsing EU and Euro dollar..
Northern Ireland is also self governing with its own parliament and Westminster has hardly a say in any Northern Irish affairs, though Ulster plays a full and active role in UK life including the Armed Forces..

In my experience most Protestants are only religious by name only however a lot are.. The Loyalist community (protestant) in my experience are UBER British.. They take their loyalism VERY seriously and is the only part of the UK where you will see the Union Jack fly from every house.. Even the curbs on the roads are painted red white and blue!.. At the end of the night in pubs you would be made to stand and sing God save the queen or get your head kicked in!

In Catholic areas it is the reverse.. Tricolour flags everywhere.. The curbs painted in the tri colours.... You are left with no illusions what area you are in.. And dont get me started on marching season! Lol

reply to post by Carreau


I hope they realize this is an orchestrated plot by 'the powers that were' to create civil unrest and they'll be counting on a few Irish people getting killed in the process, it's basically a different slant on the ''OCCUPY" plan to create anger and unrest in the masses and get them fired up, then Martial Law can be implemented.

Maybe this is why the UK government bodies were recruiting 'Civil Control Officers' last year (or could have been the year before, sorry not sure exactly but within the last 2 years anyway). There was a thread on ATS about it, can't find it in the search engine.

So, what involvement, if any, does Great Britain have there? Why would they be flying a British flag, if these are separate countries? I have to say, as one not Catholic, I tend to side more with the Irish on this one. It's their land, and their choice how they worship. Bloodlines do play in that, too, as there is a lot of Scotch/Irish in my family. I still get annoyed that Scotland isn't independent. There should be a better way than fighting and riots, though. With the temperaments in that part of the world (my ancestors, and I have the temper, too!), that just makes things worse and worse.

Appreciate the info.

You say 'It's their land' How so? My ancestors have lived here 800 years, how does this give someone else the right to it?

And as for 'their choice how they worship' you do realise that under UK rule you have the right to worship as you please, it is the IRISH side who try to dictate how we worship.. The 'Republicans (or Irish if you prefer) have spent the past 50 years ethnically cleansing people who don't follow their way of Christianity (Catholicism) out of Northern Ireland.
If you care to see past terrorist propaganda and look for the TRUTH you will see that Catholics were never intimidated in their worship, always welcomed into Protestant communities if they moved there and were welcomed into organisations such as the RUC.

Whereas, if a Protestant moved into a Catholic area you would of been shot by the IRA, burned out of your home and generally intimidated.

When you say 'Scotch Irish' are you perhaps one of these foreigners who is confused about their heritage? The Northern Irish people are ethnically referred to as 'Ulster Scots', most Scottish who settled Ireland settled it in the North East, i.e Northern Ireland and as an example, many of the USAs founding fathers and subsequent Presidents were 'Ulster Scots'.
It is quite common for this mistake to happen, yet I still find even when corrected as it doesn't suit their 'views' that people tend to ignore this fact and carry on as if they are 'Irish'

But, hey after 34 years on this planet I know that people don't care about the truth in Northern Ireland, the truth isn't fashionable enough, much more cool to support the poor old terrorist out trying to bomb children on their way to a Christmas lunch with their parents.

Bomb attack on Police mans family