Disney World to track visitors with wireless wristbands

reply to post by CIAGypsy

I love the way people freak out over RFID when they really don't understand the technology OR its limitations. You simply read the words "tracking device" or "radio frequency technology" and think it's Eagle Eye come to life.

RFID technology does not work that way. It is a PASSIVE technology. That means that the chip in the wristband must pass within a few inches (typically) with an RFID reader in order for information to be transmitted. There are longer range readers but they are very expensive and typically don't reach more than a few feet at most.

Actually, I am fully aware of the technology and it DOES work that way.
I've watched the RFID's in credit cards actually get scanned from a persons wallet.
This was from about 25 feet away from behind a desk.

In my previous line of work, anti-Security had to be proven to encompass the fight against it.
In other words, we had to see why we needed the measures we needed.

Which is why I stand on my beliefs that our creature comforts will be our demise.
We can't allow convenience to rule our lives when corruption and greed run rampant.

There are better ways to make sure your kids are safe.
It's called responsible parenting.

Remember one thing, this all wasn't necessary 10+ years ago.
All the sudden it's important?

reply to post by Loadstain


And how did they manage before this technology was available to them? The act of taking my fingerprint is a gross invasion of my privacy for the sake of them making a few more bucks from a carousel? That is unacceptable to me and, I assume, to many others like me.

I'm from the UK but have been to the disney parks in florida 3 times in all - once in 70's, once in the 90's and once in the noughties.....on our last visit, when approaching the exit gates of the park I filmed 8 members of my family linked arm in arm singing 'we hate mickey mouse'.

In the 70's people commonly gave their left over tickets to people on the way into the park. An friendly act. The tickets had been paid for - that's all that should have mattered to disney. Courtesy of spending most of the day in their ludicrous queues they could not be used (as disney well knew) - passing them on was the sensible and decent option. Disney was cheating NOT their customers.

Our next generation of children in the family will never know disney....their plagiarised cartoons, their over-priced plastic products or their parks.

Originally posted by havok
Actually, I am fully aware of the technology and it DOES work that way.
I've watched the RFID's in credit cards actually get scanned from a persons wallet.
This was from about 25 feet away from behind a desk.

Amazing, seeing that credit card parts are h-field parts with a maximum range of about 10cm.

It actually defies physics to be able to scan them from 25 feet...you're out of the near field zone they use.

The parts in credit cards and passports are qualitatively different from the ones in PASS and the e-drivers licenses which can be read from 25 feet. Although they call them both "RFID" they are not alike at all.

Originally posted by havok

Actually, I am fully aware of the technology and it DOES work that way.
I've watched the RFID's in credit cards actually get scanned from a persons wallet.
This was from about 25 feet away from behind a desk.

Sorry, I call BS on this.... I work with this technology in the banking industry every day. I would argue that if you saw something of this nature, then the individual MAY have captured information from a proximity card (which are open source and carry NO encryption)....NOT a credit card. Credit cards are required by law to carry encryption so unless the person who was allegedly "stealing" this information had the encryption keys (multiple), they would have only gotten jibberish. AND it would have had to be closer than 25 feet away unless the "card" which housed the data was battery powered. Card chips are passive which means they have no power source. They don't work unless they are waved within a magnetic field to induce current passively. A device that would create a magnetic field high powered enough to operate a chip at 25 feet would cause major disruption of electricity, computers, etc...in a large vicinity/area.

Originally posted by havok
Which is why I stand on my beliefs that our creature comforts will be our demise.
We can't allow convenience to rule our lives when corruption and greed run rampant.

There are better ways to make sure your kids are safe.
It's called responsible parenting.

Remember one thing, this all wasn't necessary 10+ years ago.
All the sudden it's important?

There are many who would disagree with you....in fact, every parent who has ever lost a child would disagree with you. And that's just ONE reason. There are business reasons why Disney would choose to do this too which are very valid. They are a free company. If you don't like it, don't go there. Simple enough.

Originally posted by CIAGypsy

Originally posted by havok

Actually, I am fully aware of the technology and it DOES work that way.
I've watched the RFID's in credit cards actually get scanned from a persons wallet.
This was from about 25 feet away from behind a desk.

Sorry, I call BS on this.... I work with this technology in the banking industry every day. I would argue that if you saw something of this nature, then the individual MAY have captured information from a proximity card (which are open source and carry NO encryption)....NOT a credit card. Credit cards are required by law to carry encryption so unless the person who was allegedly "stealing" this information had the encryption keys (multiple), they would have only gotten jibberish. AND it would have had to be closer than 25 feet away unless the "card" which housed the data was battery powered. Card chips are passive which means they have no power source. They don't work unless they are waved within a magnetic field to induce current passively. A device that would create a magnetic field high powered enough to operate a chip at 25 feet would cause major disruption of electricity, computers, etc...in a large vicinity/area.

Originally posted by havok
Which is why I stand on my beliefs that our creature comforts will be our demise.
We can't allow convenience to rule our lives when corruption and greed run rampant.

There are better ways to make sure your kids are safe.
It's called responsible parenting.

Remember one thing, this all wasn't necessary 10+ years ago.
All the sudden it's important?

There are many who would disagree with you....in fact, every parent who has ever lost a child would disagree with you. And that's just ONE reason. There are business reasons why Disney would choose to do this too which are very valid. They are a free company. If you don't like it, don't go there. Simple enough.

edit on 9-1-2013 by CIAGypsy because: (no reason given)

edit on 9-1-2013 by CIAGypsy because: (no reason given)

Read his last reply to me; that's all I needed to hear.

Here's the bottom line...if I don't agree with wearing a RFID wristband, I don't have to go to Disney. Period.

And if he feels that way about Disney, then I can only imagine how he feels about this:

Student suspended for refusing tracking device at school

A Texas high school student who claimed her student identification was the "Mark of the Beast" because it was implanted with a radio-frequency identification chip has lost her federal court bid 8 January challenging her suspension for refusing to wear the card around her neck.

Radio-frequency identification devices are a daily part of the electronic age -- found in passports, and library and payment cards. Eventually they're expected to replace bar-code labels on consumer goods. Now schools across the US are slowly adopting them as well.

Northside Independent School District in San Antonio began issuing the RFID-chip-laden student-body cards when the term began last autumn. The ID badge has a bar code associated with a student's Social Security number, and the RFID chip monitors pupils' movements on campus, from when they arrive until when they leave.

Sophomore Andrea Hernandez was notified in November by the Northside Independent School District in San Antonio that she won't be able to continue attending John Jay High School unless she wears the badge around her neck. The district said the girl, who objects largely on religious grounds, would have to attend another high school that does not employ the RFID tags.

reply to post by CIAGypsy


This is exactly what I was talking about, first its for "security", and "health", then next step is this, using it to track people's every move... The very idea that the courts uphold this invasion of privacy (IN A PUBLIC SCHOOL), shows how far we have gone in the wrong direction. Not only does this student not have a choice but to go to school (its illegal not to), but now she HAS to be tracked everywhere she goes in the building.

Next your employer will be wanting you to be chipped so that they know if you are spending to much time at the water cooler or not! However, I am sure you wont mind being treated like cattle, heck you might even let them brand you! Nothing like willful submission, disgusting.

reply to post by CIAGypsy
This should help you under stand what CC/ RFID theft is and how it can be done from you credit card,www.popularmechanics.com... from the link

However, a team of researchers at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, was recently able to construct scanners capable of skimming both the cardholder name and card number from a variety of first-generation RFID credit cards. Then they found a way to transmit that data back to a card reader, tricking it into accepting a "purchase." We spoke with assistant professor Kevin Fu, who worked on the project. He wasn't willing to divulge which credit card issuers were compromised, but he said that many of the supposedly encrypted cards sent card numbers, expiration dates and cardholder names in plain text -- which could be read through the envelopes the cards were mailed in.

Read more: RFID Credit Cards and Theft: Tech Clinic - Popular Mechanics

now i know this was done in a lab in 2009 this si 2013 and se on the net web you can get to steel credit card info, for any time there is a safe guard there is a way of getting through that safe guard
one reason why i want no part of it, i like me being "me" not some other "me"

I saw this on the news a few days ago. No big deal, in fact I think It is great. It is not like this is the mark of the beast. No more lost children, and makes it easy for ride reservations, and payment for food and whatever else you may want. A hacker is going to hack...there is nothing you can do about it...I would worry about it if we see people having problems. I don't personally thing this is going to be much of an issue..also you don't HAVE to get a bracelet....It is an OPTION.

[
Amazing, seeing that credit card parts are h-field parts with a maximum range of about 10cm.

It actually defies physics to be able to scan them from 25 feet...you're out of the near field zone they use.

You do not know what you are talking about. "Passive" tags may be routinely read from 40'. This is done by "bouncing" the signal off the tag. Quite common.

Originally posted by sprtpilot

[
Amazing, seeing that credit card parts are h-field parts with a maximum range of about 10cm.

It actually defies physics to be able to scan them from 25 feet...you're out of the near field zone they use.

You do not know what you are talking about. "Passive" tags may be routinely read from 40'. This is done by "bouncing" the signal off the tag. Quite common.

Nope. You don't understand the differences between tags. All passive tags are not the same. E-field tags may be read from several dozen feet, if designed for it, h-field tags cannot. They are qualitatively different in design.

I design with this stuff, and by 'design' I mean at the chip level. You want schematics and math, I'm your boy.

Originally posted by 007Polytoks
Next your employer will be wanting you to be chipped so that they know if you are spending to much time at the water cooler or not! However, I am sure you wont mind being treated like cattle, heck you might even let them brand you! Nothing like willful submission, disgusting.

Implants generally don't work that way, either. As they're all h-field parts, you will have a hard time spotting them in the open. You could put the water cooler behind a door they'd have to pass through, and put a loop on the door, I guess, but there's not like a grid map somewhere showing where you are - you can't read an h-field part at any distance.

We actually do have to carry RFID tags at work, I've got one in my pocketses.

Originally posted by bekod
reply to post by CIAGypsy

 

This should help you under stand what CC/ RFID theft is and how it can be done from you credit card,

now i know this was done in a lab in 2009 this si 2013 and se on the net web you can get to steel credit card info, for any time there is a safe guard there is a way of getting through that safe guard
one reason why i want no part of it, i like me being "me" not some other "me"

edit on 9-1-2013 by bekod because: line editing/ added link

Okay, let's take a look at your "evidence."

That article is from 2009. Even your own article states that the skimming was done on " first-generation RFID credit cards." Many many changes have occurred in smart card technology standards (PCI compliance standards) since 2009.

Here's how that works today:

a magstripe card contains the card holder's name, a 16-digit credit card number, an expiration date and a credit verification value (CVV)—a three- or four-digit number used in transactions in which the card is not present and the signature cannot be verified (mainly, online purchases). With this information, the card can then be cloned and the new card would be indistinguishable from the original. A criminal could also conduct transactions online without a problem.

RFID-enabled cards retain their magnetic stripe, so they can be used with existing point-of-sale terminals. Therefore, the information is still vulnerable. But the chip in the RFID transponder has additional security features that credit-card companies say make it more secure. Each time the card is used for a legitimate transaction, the chip generates a new CVV—which is different from the one printed on the card—and communicates that CVV to the network, which uses it to validate the next transaction. If someone were to skim information off the card, that person could not clone the card since the CVV is only good for a single transaction.

The electronic CVV is invalid for online transactions. So if a criminal skimmed a credit card and obtained the electronic CVV, and then tried to use it to buy something at a Web site that conducted a CVV check, the transaction would be rejected. The only way a skimmed card could be used online would be to purchase something at a site that doesn't check either the cardholder's name or the printed CVV. One benefit of RFID-enabled cards is that you are not handing over your card to a waiter or gas station attendant, who can then write down you credit-card number and the printed CVV, and use the card for online purchases.

In addition, Vanderhoof says, newer contactless cards host a key that creates a dynamic cryptogram—usually a three-digit security code—that is sent to the back-end system to uniquely identify each contactless transaction. The key used to create the cyrptogram from the credit-card number, expiration date and so forth is never broadcast, so it can not be skimmed using an RFID reader. Thus, there is no way to utilize a cloned card to execute a transaction at a store that accepts contactless payments.

Are RFID Enabled smart cards safer than Magnetic Stripe?

Then there is the whole inclusion of EMV (Europay Mastercard Visa) technology which adds yet ANOTHER layer of protection on the cards. EMV is used globally for credit & debit cards EXCEPT in the United States. Of course, Mastercard and Visa have stated that the industry MUST adopt this technology by between 2013-2015 or they will start shifting fraud liability to the issues/retailers. EMV technology includes even tighter encryption as well as online/offline capabilities to limit fraud. However, unless US credit issues do away with the magnetic stripe on the cards, then EMV technology will not reduce fraud as much since information can easily be stolen from the stripe.

ETA - Oh, and notice that the skimming article states that they were doing this experiment to see if they could read the data through a sealed envelope with the card inside. This is certainly not "skimming a card from 25 feet away!"

Also to add:

Smart card-enabled applications are becoming more prevalent in many of today’s businesses. The financial payments industry has moved to smart cards. The majority of the regional financial organizations worldwide have mandated that financial credit and debit cards must be smart card-enabled by a specified date. Plus, there has been rapid acceptance of contactless smart card technology for fast, convenient and secure credit and debit payment. The United States Federal government has adopted smart card technology for its major credentialing initiatives. The Department of Defense Common Access Card uses smart card technology for the credentialing of all military and civilian personnel. The Department of State uses contactless smart card technology for the electronic passport. Smart card-based identity credentials are now being issued to all Federal government employees to meet Homeland Security Presidential Directive 12. Enterprises are issuing smart ID badges to employees to secure physical and logical access. Plus, many government identity programs around the world are issuing smart card-based identity credentials to citizens.

If smart cards could be so easily skimmed and duplicated, do you REALLY think that the military and DoD agencies around the world would be moving to this technology????

What makes smart cards secure?

Originally posted by sprtpilot

[
Amazing, seeing that credit card parts are h-field parts with a maximum range of about 10cm.

It actually defies physics to be able to scan them from 25 feet...you're out of the near field zone they use.

You do not know what you are talking about. "Passive" tags may be routinely read from 40'. This is done by "bouncing" the signal off the tag. Quite common.

No....you don't know what YOU are talking about. I use this technology daily. Yes, there are *some* applications that use long distance readers (such as toll booths), but these account for a very small percentage of the overall technology. And when you consider this is going into a wristband, you can assume that the antenna is going to be comparable to that of a smart card which means it will have a read range of 3 ft or less under IDEAL conditions.

The distance from which a tag can be read is called its read range. Read range depends on a number of factors, including the frequency of the radio waves uses for tag-reader communication, the size of the tag antenna, the power output of the reader, and whether the tags have a battery to broadcast a signal or gather energy from a reader and merely reflect a weak signal back to the reader. Battery-powered tags typically have a read range of 300 feet (100 meters). These are the kinds of tags used in toll collection systems. High-frequency tags, which are often used in smart cards, have a read range of three feet or less. UHF tags-the kind used on pallets and cases of goods in the supply chain-have a read range of 20 to 30 feet under ideal conditions. If the tags are attached to products with water or metal, the read range can be significantly less. If the size of the UHF antenna is reduced, that will also dramatically reduce the read range. Increasing the power output could increase the range, but most governments restrict the output of readers so that they don't interfere with other RF devices, such as cordless phones.

RFID tag read ranges

Disney world?
Then it must be Kosher.
Don't worry...they wouldn't do anything to cause Christians any harm , they are American after all...or not.

reply to post by BlueAjah


I believe we are already trackable and tracked by way of our phones

reply to post by gingerlee


Which is why I don't carry one. When I'm mobile, I don't want to be reachable, and if I need to reach out to anyone, well thats what payphones are for.

However, back on topic, the RFID's in these bracelets will be very short range, probably only readable within a few cm. I can't see the bracelets being big enough for a large antenna for longer distance reading.

Also the bracelets will only contain a globally unique identifier. They won't contain your life story, or your credit card details. Granted, the GUID will be linked to your life story and credit card, but that linking will be done in a very secure database, not in the bracelet itself. Much paranoia about nothing, methinks.

reply to post by Bedlam


Quite simple actually, just like time cards, one would have to "sign in" with the RFID, in between breaks, which as I stated is no big problem by itself... However to suggest that the technology will not get to the point where it has GPS like capability's, and become an ultimate tool of control, rather then convenience, is to be wholly ignorant.

There is already GPS technology that can fit on the tip of your finger...

Its sad to think that people are actually calling for this, do you really want to be "bar-coded"?

At least now we can pretend we are free, with this technology, there will be no illusion left.