Rapes (might) decrease if society accepted homosexuality...HYPOTHESIS

In South Africa we have a general problem with rape, and one particularly striking form is the "corrective rape" of openly lesbian women.

"Corrective rape" is based on the defense or belief that raping a lesbian woman will "cure" her, and make her straight.

In this sense raping a woman as discipline and correction is based on notions of traditional values.
Fundamentalist beliefs often want to revert to pre-modern forms of purism, and that means going back to the time before women had rights, when rape was only illegal because it interfered with the reproductive rights of another man.
That is, rape could cause another man's wife to become pregnant and her husband could unknowingly pay for or leave an inheritance to a "bastard" (in Biblical parlance), or illegitimate child.

As a gay man I don't see how this could even cause arousal.
There's a renewed debate on whether rape is about power or lust, but feminists have generally argued that it concerns male power over women's bodies.
The proliferation of rape during times of war is often used to defend this position.
More worryingly this could also imply that left without a husband or male defender any woman is vulnerable, and more men are simply opportunistic.
Biologically it appears that rape is as effective (if nor more so) as romance in causing pregnancy.

In SA we have gay rights and even legal same-marriage.
We're also one of the few countries to treat same-sex rape as equal to heterosexual rape (and not just sexual assault).

India also doesn't forbid homosexuality, and has kept a variety of "third-sex" traditions, even during British colonialism and its imposed penal code.

I don't think the male rape of women has anything to do with homosexuality or gay people.
It's actually the complete antithesis.
Perhaps occasionally something deeply homoerotic may be happening in strongly patriarchal groups, but an openly gay minority won't effect that either way.

There are traditional patterns of male behavior, but in SA some feel the economy has been too female-centric, and men feel left behind.
So there is also increasing resentment between the genders.
We have two womens's days (an international and local one, and 16 days of activism against woman abuse), and also days where girl-children are taken to work, Oprah's school for girls, and so forth.
Some men involved in masculinity studies now ask what is done for young men?
They also face trauma and violence, often more than women judging by the death rates, and they perform very dangerous jobs when employed.

Where is Oprah's school for boys in Africa?

People expect young men to adopt new values, but without any encouragement they will misinterpret the old ones that seem to give them power.

So, I do think many young men feel marginalized, and that is a dangerous development.

reply to post by Thurisaz


Not all rapes are alike, mass rape is distinct from other types, it has less to do with sex itself than any other forms of sexual rape and abuse.

Shoplifting might decrease if we accepted kleptomania.

Makes about as much sense.

While I understand the concern about the issue and asking questions, the premise here is asinine and offensive. Next hypothesis please

Equating homosexuality to rape, in any context that isn't specific is nonense.

Rape is prevelant because of a variety of reasons. Mostly becaue there is a lack of infrastructure to support women and their rights in those nations.

Also cultures who accept rape as a normal practice are to blame. They don't even consider it rape.

So yeah, not because of gays getting more glitter is there less rape.

~Tenth

Originally posted by freebornman
reply to post by Thurisaz

 

I don't think the situation in India (or the rest of the world) is anything to do with repressed homosexuality, I think it is the slow motion train crash between traditional sexual conservatism and modern MSM commodification of sex as a recreational consumer product. A bit like the catholic church in times past selling 'indulgences', I'ts easy to sell a product that says "sure, you can have your cake, eat it, and post the pictures online, and suffer no guilt".
Good post, we now have 50 years or so of the 'sexual revolution' to examine, and as human beings, we need to be talking about this as to whether it was a good thing or a bad thing. Personally, I think the 'sexual revolution' has been an almost unmitigated disaster, but then thats just me being old-fashioned. S&F.

ty for your contribution. When I read the part I have highlighted in your reply, it explained the issue rather than how I tried to explain it, by suggesting one factor. I feel your reply really does hit the nail on the head...

The conflict between traditional and contemporary lifestyles.

reply to post by Thurisaz

What are "traditional" or "contemporary values" when it comes to men raping women?
Deuteronomy 22:28 (KJV) says that a man who "humbled" a virgin must pay 50 shekels of silver, and then he must marry her.
Is that "traditional values"?
Many conservative cults and societies still think so.

If anything it is "contemporary" values that demand justice for these victims today.

Clearly the male demographic has been ignored or alienated by the contemporary gender debates, and it is very likely that these young rapists blame their actions on "traditional values".
Not that men are the only defenders of sexist patriarchy.
In Africa many women are against modern clothing, and even encourage men to police non-conformist women.

The male conservatism from traditional quarters has been astounding.
In Swaziland they just banned women from wearing miniskirts (although the monarchy's maidens dance virtually naked before the king when he chooses a new wife every year).
www.rawstory.com...

In SA our current President once stood accused of rape charges (he was found innocent, but the details were rather daunting).
This hardly affected his popularity.
In fact, many traditionalists and churches celebrated him.

So yes, this does have to do with "traditional" gender discourses, but unfortunately "tradition" has been slow to protect women, and it is regarded as a part of the problem, rather than the solution.

Tradition itself is a difficult topic, because it always re-invents itself, and while it may present itself as static, it is really dynamic.
I'm very influenced by local thinking about South Africa here.

reply to post by Thurisaz

ty for your contribution.

Your'e perfectly welcome

The conflict between traditional and contemporary lifestyles.

I think most people would agree that most cultures historically have regarded rape as 'a bad thing'. Sometimes for different reasons, but almost always 'a bad thing'.
For thousands of years, cultures have grown regionally, with customs and traditions built up from the need for people to co-operate in order to survive and prosper, and these customs have held steady, or changed slowly over a long time to meet the changing needs of a population or environment. This situation has held for thousands of years, and it is only in recent times, since the advent of electronic communication, that children have had to grow up surrounded by this 'electro-smog' of covert and overt sexuality, and I don't think our various cultures have kept pace very well. I don't actually think TPTB intended us to, it seems to me that they WANT to destroy regional tradition and culture, and reduce us all to a homogenous amoral mass of consumer/slaves.
halfoldman makes a very good and relevant point when he says:-

There are traditional patterns of male behavior, but in SA some feel the economy has been too female-centric, and men feel left behind. So there is also increasing resentment between the genders.

This resentment has been fostered by feminism, another curse laid on the world by the financial elite. Where is masculinism? Men have been slowly stripped of their traditional roles, women have gained the right to work and pay income tax. And this is progress? There is no denying biology, men cannot have babies, (thank heavens), but the traditional role of providing for and protecting those babies is being eroded, and as a result both genders are suffering, and children are growing up in the resultant strife.
My answer? Stop denying nature, accept that yin is yin and yang is yang, each in the other, together making the harmonious whole.

Why even bother to post anything in this stupid thread when what you have to say is going to get removed? Completely dumb. Espcially when it's a valid arguement. Good job ATS .

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by Thurisaz

 

What are "traditional" or "contemporary values" when it comes to men raping women?
Deuteronomy 22:28 (KJV) says that a man who "humbled" a virgin must pay 50 shekels of silver, and then he must marry her.
Is that "traditional values"?
Many conservative cults and societies still think so....

When I used Homosexuality as a possible reason, that was an error, the info you and others are posting suggest to me that it is historical...it is deep seated and so engrained into the psyche of todays cultures, (men and women). It is such a big issue. The example you have noted is horrendous; a man could defile a woman and then just pay money to her family and then marry her. The underlying attitude started somewhere and perhaps it that stems entirely on control and power?

If anything it is "contemporary" values that demand justice for these victims today.

Absolutely.

Clearly the male demographic has been ignored or alienated by the contemporary gender debates, and it is very likely that these young rapists blame their actions on "traditional values".
Not that men are the only defenders of sexist patriarchy.
In Africa many women are against modern clothing, and even encourage men to police non-conformist women.

The male conservatism from traditional quarters has been astounding.
In Swaziland they just banned women from wearing miniskirts (although the monarchy's maidens dance virtually naked before the king when he chooses a new wife every year).
www.rawstory.com...

very hypocritical, isn't it? I always considered the issue of what a woman was wearing and the control over it was due to the man 'not wanting to be tempted' and even in the Bible it states 'do not tempt God...and God is a Man'; it seems that men blame women for their actions... and even in Criminology, (I studied in AU) it was tragic to see how the victim was blamed, even in the Court, the accused is innocent until proven guilty (even when they have evidence)...all other factors are considered. It is attrocious.... a rapist's sentence can be reduced because she was out wearing a 'mini skirt'.

So yes, this does have to do with "traditional" gender discourses, but unfortunately "tradition" has been slow to protect women, and it is regarded as a part of the problem, rather than the solution

and that is where the problem lies, women historically, traditionally were treated (in many cultures) as being lesser than men...and not protected.

Tradition itself is a difficult topic, because it always re-invents itself, and while it may present itself as static, it is really dynamic.
I'm very influenced by local thinking about South Africa here.

ty, it is great to have an intelligent conversation.

reply to post by Thurisaz


Our allies in Saudi Arabia are sending convicted criminals to Syria to rape Women, Children, Men and the elderly.. While we are outraged by what happened to that woman in India, the same thing is happening on a regular basis in Syria and that is for political gain. When the people we apparently look up to are prepared to sponsor these atrocities, what else should we expect in our societies? Its a fkn disgrace. The sad thing is, we sit back and allow it to happen or make up stupid theories to work out why its happening.

reply to post by Thurisaz


Most rapists are not homosexuals. There are so many factors associated in what creates such a monster within society............these are not generally associated with the guilt of homosexuality but that does not exclude a percentage who do rape.

www.macalester.edu...

www.d.umn.edu...

Originally posted by freebornman
reply to post by Thurisaz

 

I think most people would agree that most cultures historically have regarded rape as 'a bad thing'. Sometimes for different reasons, but almost always 'a bad thing'.

I just re-read halfoldman's post I replied to above yours and I just noticed the choice of words used historically...

'humbled a virgin' = rape
'defiled' = rape

and yet, humbling a virgin or defiling a women minimises what it really is... so yes, it is conisidered a 'bad thing' and yet throughout history rape has been referred to as other things... such as 'humbling' or 'corrective'... =minimised and then justified. It is tragic.

For thousands of years, cultures have grown regionally, with customs and traditions built up from the need for people to co-operate in order to survive and prosper, and these customs have held steady, or changed slowly over a long time to meet the changing needs of a population or environment. This situation has held for thousands of years, and it is only in recent times, since the advent of electronic communication, that children have had to grow up surrounded by this 'electro-smog' of covert and overt sexuality, and I don't think our various cultures have kept pace very well. I don't actually think TPTB intended us to, it seems to me that they WANT to destroy regional tradition and culture, and reduce us all to a homogenous amoral mass of consumer/slaves.
halfoldman makes a very good and relevant point when he says:-

There are traditional patterns of male behavior, but in SA some feel the economy has been too female-centric, and men feel left behind. So there is also increasing resentment between the genders.

This resentment has been fostered by feminism, another curse laid on the world by the financial elite. Where is masculinism? Men have been slowly stripped of their traditional roles, women have gained the right to work and pay income tax. And this is progress? There is no denying biology, men cannot have babies, (thank heavens), but the traditional role of providing for and protecting those babies is being eroded, and as a result both genders are suffering, and children are growing up in the resultant strife.
My answer? Stop denying nature, accept that yin is yin and yang is yang, each in the other, together making the harmonious whole.

yes, that is why I started to ask the question...why such hatred and resentment shown to a woman? I considered it may be the fact that men cannot be what they want to be because of tradition and so the resentment and anger builds up and these terrible crimes occur? I don't think it is as simple as that. It is a huge issue, not all men resent women because their society will not accept their sexuality, the issue you have presented is also another factor.

I think nature is quite difficult to rely on.

Originally posted by DarknStormy
reply to post by Thurisaz

 

Our allies in Saudi Arabia are sending convicted criminals to Syria to rape Women, Children, Men and the elderly..

While we are outraged by what happened to that woman in India, the same thing is happening on a regular basis in Syria and that is for political gain. When the people we apparently look up to are prepared to sponsor these atrocities, what else should we expect in our societies? Its a fkn disgrace. The sad thing is, we sit back and allow it to happen or make up stupid theories to work out why its happening.

my heart aches for the People in Syria and I feel sick from just reading what you have posted.
You can say my theory is stupid, that is fine, I just ask, why are these terrible things happening?

your example shows that rape is being used for political gain and it is sickening. Perhaps that is part of the rape cult mentality that another member posted info about earlier?

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
Why even bother to post anything in this stupid thread when what you have to say is going to get removed? Completely dumb. Espcially when it's a valid arguement. Good job ATS

.

I am sorry but I didn't see what you had posted. Could you post it again, I am interested to hear what you have to say.

Originally posted by Pedro4077
So using this logic - gangs of angry lesbians would be raping men.

That can not be rape....well unless they are ugly hairy lesbians....


I think society has accepted homosexuality...except for babyboomer and older and as long as you can move faster than a old man with a cain you will be safe.

Originally posted by Thurisaz
my heart aches for the People in Syria and I feel sick from just reading what you have posted.
You can say my theory is stupid, that is fine, I just ask, why are these terrible things happening?

I couldn't answer that for you if I tried but it seems some of the incidents, especially in war are not accidents.. Now when I said about the theories, It wasn't directed at yours. The point is we can sit here debating till the cows come home but what is it actually changing, if you get what I mean.

your example shows that rape is being used for political gain and it is sickening. Perhaps that is part of the rape cult mentality that another member posted info about earlier?

I don't know what the deal is. All I know is that we live in a sick world and when people need to resort to those acts, something has gone wrong down the line. The thing is, it does seem that hings are only getting worse and its only a matter of time before people get sick of it and I'm not talking about a protest.

Originally posted by GodsDog
reply to post by InhaleExhale

 

I simply will not waste time trying to come up with a reason why. Having a reason doesn't make it any easier to swallow.

yes your right, but I think that is the biggest problem for me, I always have to try and understand it in order to process it.

It is probably better not to even ask why. But how the hell can anyone cope with these crimes? And if a person doesn't dig deeper to try and find the problem that may bring about a solution...the crimes will just continue.

but yeah, there is no quick fix for these issues and that is frustrating. They just seem to be getting worse.

I should not have commented in the first place as I have a personal agenda with regard to this topic. It is impossible for me to be involved with this and maintain any rational thought process what-so-ever. With that said, I apologize if I offended and I'll remove myself from the topic.
Thank you,
Dog.