Why Seeds are Worthless

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posted on Jan, 7 2013 @ 01:22 PM
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For decades now, the undercurrent of the survivalist and "prepper" community created lists of what self proclaimed experts thought to be the most important components to survival. Examples include the holy trinity of God, Guns, and Gold; Silver Bullion, Junk Silver, Lakota Copper, Food Storage for months or years, Dried Beans, MREs, Bug Out Bags stuffed with gerber tools and emergency blankets, granola bars, Get out of Dodge Vehicles, enormous camouflaged ruck sacks, $500+ EDC pcoket knives and 100+ lumen pocket flashlights, overflowing gun lockers, and of course, the topic of the day: Seeds.

Here's the reality of a major social upheaval: The officers employed by the government have their own stored food supplies and emergency support systems. They also have their own shelters, fuel supplies, and stored ammunition locations. Whether we are talking about the Seed Banks, NORAD, or the local gas station that only supplies fuel to your highway patrol, the fact that they have their own SHTF supplies is hard to contest in all but the most isolated and bankrupt enforcement communities.

This is critical to the next logical step of what will happen during a major disaster, particularly one in which something akin to the risk of martial law, confiscation, or 20th century style death camps should follow. They WILL have their infrastructure, they WILL roam the earth, and they WILL be shooting anyone who challenges their position in the social hierarchy. That is exactly how it works. You can run, but they can drive. You can shoot, but they can shoot back. These aren't difficult concepts, but somehow, this all gets lost when people think about preparing for the worst.

In the hypothetical model in which you imagine yourself in some kind of wasteland, in some kind of nomadic black market trading bullion for cans of dog food or a paper bag full of .223 ammunition, many people stop and say "hey wait! we need food, how are we going to have food without seeds? Seeds are more valuable than gold". And this is where the reality needs to sink in. You do not live in the 19th century. You live in a time period where satellites and drones fly over areas producing maps. Seeds are tiny portable renewable resources, but only if they find fertile soil. Only if they are given time to grow. Only if they have enough sunshine and water. Only if they have enough space to grow. Growing a section of crops means you have to secure a relatively large section of land for a very long time, and the renewable aspect is only functional if you can continue to secure larger and larger plots of land. As in, you have to be able to secure land from the view of satellites and drones, and the upcoming tanks, soldiers, flame throwers, and carpet bombing that may follow. In the history of warfare and subjugation, the destruction of crops is one of the most common tools of tyrants. Crops can't run away. Crops can't easily hide. Crops can't be stuffed into a trench coat and carried safely through a sewer system of some megalopolis. Seeds can, but where are you going to plant them?

You already live in a place where growing tomatoes in your front yard or herding "heirloom" pigs is a criminal offense. Your civilization is already such that citizens go to jail for trying to transport milk across the border. How, in a world like this, do you think you can escape the same satellites that scour for illegal swimming pools to dispense fines? How in a world where cameras read your license plates and a computer mails you a toll fee or traffic ticket, do you think you can hide a farm? Where are you going to put it? Where is this farm going to be safe?

When a person buys land, they are actually renting that land - they do not have allodial or sovereign title. They have to pay taxes. Taxes to the same people who can determine if they are "zoned" to grow crops. Taxes to the same people who can determine if the crops they are growing are the "right kind" of crops. So you might have a pouch full of Yuzu seeds, or Peach Seeds, or Tomato seeds, but if the land isn't zoned for it, then the government will send in armed and armored individuals to tell you to destroy it. They may simply arrest you and take your land. The point is, the land is not yours, you do not really own the land, you dwell on the land like a peasant, and if the king doesn't want you planting your seeds, they are worthless. In some cases, as happened in feudal periods, and as happens periodically in the present, the government may confiscate some or all of your crops to feed itself. They may come to the conclusion that you do not deserve to have such an abundance of crops, so they will redistribute your crops for the common good of their friends and family. Now imagine this reality, and let it sink in. In the dim chance that you are permitted to grow crops in some kind of post apocalyptic scenario, the basic tenets of centralized government and collectivization will demand your labor be constituted as a charity effort for the community. In other words, you will be labeled a serf to the state, and like the tobacco and cotton pickers of yore, your life will be indistinguishable from slavery.

More commonly, the principle of seeds and crops is virtually identical to the principle of vast food storage, which as most of you already know, is a supply the government wants you to report so that they may enact efficient confiscation and redistribution at a later date. Bugging in carries with it the extreme risk of door to door raids, thieves, and confiscation. The most effective food storage has the following characteristics:
1. easily portable
2. easily concealable
3. easily consumable
Most food storage people acquire does not fit this description. If you have to have an oven to consume your food, it will be worthless without a power supply, be it electricity, gas, or timber, without a sufficient power supply, it is worthless. When you burn a wood stove, or make a bonfire, you create a smoke trail others can see alerting them to your location. If you try starting a fire indoors you risk suffocation. If you store hundreds and thousands of pounds of food and raiders begin to roll in, you are not going to be able to carry it all, or load it all in time. Instead, it will be left behind.

Seeds are portable, but the crops they produce are not. You can buy and own seeds, but you cannot buy and own land. You can only rent land and only by making your identity known and paying a local lord a measure of taxes for permission. People say seeds are worth 500 times the value of guns or gold. That food is all important compared to these. It is more logical to conclude that the people with guns will simply take the food and the seeds and any crops that might be harvested.

Any sane person who places a high value on seeds should challenge themselves to imagine this thought experiment, wherein the disaster imagined takes place, where they have their seeds, and the men with tanks and bombs are still roaming about, shouting orders and wielding black rifles. Let them imagine this scenario, and ask themselves "How shall these seeds preserve my life?"




posted on Jan, 7 2013 @ 01:27 PM
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reply to post by skynet2015
 


Thinking in the short term, you are correct. However, thinking in the long term, is where I disagree with your assessment, unless of course you are in favor of creating another society dependent on the government....

Just my 2 cents...



posted on Jan, 7 2013 @ 01:28 PM
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I think the seed option is a better one if you get away from the city and head to the countryside, set up camp in the woods with a small clearing and sow the seeds in a variety of places and not in one spot, no one is talking about a market garden, more of a food source when times are tough.



posted on Jan, 7 2013 @ 01:39 PM
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reply to post by skynet2015
 


So...are you saying I should just move off my land, I own, and stop planting my vegetable gardens...stop storing seeds non-gmo for future use.


No thank you. I'll live my pointless lifestyle....

Des



posted on Jan, 7 2013 @ 02:11 PM
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You're assuming, of course, that large tracts of land will need to be devoted to "crop production", and therefore detectable by the state; that perpetual land acquisition is necessary to keep that production going.

You've just indirectly described how agriculture, as we've known it for 6,000 years, has decimated the soil and been the impetus for all manners of war and other calamities. You don't need to clear fields to grow plants. Indigenous cultures didn't do this. The plants they cultivated for sustenance were done so in the midst, and as a part of, the ecosystems in which they found themselves (i.e., no forest clearing or mono-cropping).

When the SHTF and you decide to clear a portion of land to grow food, then yes, in all likelihood you'll be found out and subjected to... whatever. However, blending your food sources in with the natural ecosystem around you may minimize this possibility. In such an event you have to think like a hunter-gatherer, not a farmer. Human beings were never intended to be farmers.

Seeds are not worthless in a SHTF scenario. Our commonly understood practices of growing food are.



posted on Jan, 7 2013 @ 02:54 PM
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I think the value of seeds are very overstated when it comes to "survival". I think for the most part people really don't grasp how much food they would really need to produce to sustain themselves and/or others.



posted on Jan, 7 2013 @ 02:58 PM
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Yep going to have to eat wild greens and collect nuts, make fish traps ect.



posted on Jan, 7 2013 @ 03:00 PM
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Originally posted by RandyBragg
I think the value of seeds are very overstated when it comes to "survival". I think for the most part people really don't grasp how much food they would really need to produce to sustain themselves and/or others.


A very excellent point. ^There^


I've grown a rather sizeable summer garden for years, and there's simply no way in hades it would be anywhere near close enough the amount needed to sustain even myself, let alone family and others.



posted on Jan, 7 2013 @ 04:07 PM
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The OP made some valid points, wherein the govt will try and eradicate all means of self support in favour of forcing people to become slaves dependent on their mercy, so yes, i do agree that large scale agricultural footprints will draw the attention of govt eyes, but i believe the answer to this could be small isolated plots scattered over a wide area and known only to the planter, i myself have been doing some experimentation with this, and have found even in semi urban areas it is possible to grow food crops that largely go unnoticed, I don't know if others on here have tried this approach, but the idea came to me after watching the film "Sherlock Holmes and the secret Weapon"
Holmes arrives back a baker street with Dr Tobel and the parts of his Bomb sight, and when asked how he will hide them he replies "the best place to hide anything, is were everyone can see it."
I have even got spring onions, Flat leaf Parsley, sage, basil, etc, to grow by planting them in the crooks of a trees, and as i see it even if somebody does inadvertently stumble upon a small patch of Carrots or a couple of Potato plants, or Kale, ok so they can have a veg soup and welcome to it, but they haven’t got the bulk of the crop, a luscious banquet it may not be, but combined with Dehydrated stored foods it should pad the meals out quite nicely, and sure beats surviving on packets of Ramen noodles every day for six months

Ramadhiman



posted on Jan, 7 2013 @ 06:12 PM
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reply to post by skynet2015
 


What method of getting food do you propose? You've completely discounted one of the main self renewing ways humans have of feeding themselves. If you have a self regenerating food supply that is easily portable, storable, tradable, and easily hidden from any potential hostiles I'd love to hear it. Scratch that, if you have figured this out, copyright that baby, sell it, and use the procedes to buy you an island to escape the hypothetical collapse.

The truth is that there isn't a fool proof easy way to obtain an abundant food supply that will survive every possible combination and permutation of all hypothetical shtf events.

Raid to get food?
Barter gold/silver/supplies for food?
Live off the land like all those semi-reality shows do?
Raise Livestock?
Grow food?
Star Trek replicator?
Pre bought supply of storable food that will last years?


Which ever one you choose, i can find some situation that will poke holes in it. Agent orange, controlled burns, and poisoning natural water supplies can end any "live off the land" plans. Having 100 pounds of mre's will eventually run out and there is a LIMIT to what any person can carry on their person when fleeing. Gold can be confiscated.

Its true crop production is extremely location dependent, requires significant training, be destroyed by raiders, isn't very transportable, can be destoryed by a hellfire missle, icbm, ect. That being said, why should anyone exclude growing food as an option?



posted on Jan, 7 2013 @ 06:19 PM
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It is true that the most efficient way to use seeds in this kind of scenario would be a blending with the surrounding environment, such that the crops themselves would not be easily detectable even if you were standing within a few paces of them. This system of growing, however, is very vulnerable to wild animals and even insects that live in the area. Varmint rifles exist for a reason, but when a crop is concealed under heavy brush, it becomes very difficult to maintain. Many organic farmers suffer from a wide variety of pest problems that rarely get discussed when talking about survival. Many spend years refining their techniques and the agricultural balance. The very large majority of potential survivalists that believe they need seeds because of an advertisement on the internet lack the skills necessary to cope with those adversities precisely because as some have stated earlier- the culture trains people to farm in a way that requires clearing, fencing, soil supplements, pesticides, and other non viable traditions in a concealed garden scenario.

The actual techniques that have the highest possibility of success are identical to the techniques used by marijuana growers, but this fact demands two amendments:
1. Marijuana growers no matter how skilled, still get raided periodically and any illegal garden would suffer similar hunts and investigations by a "forest ranger" under any policy where such a ban might exist, such as a variant of the Agenda 21 objectives in which wild life intensive territory is sectioned off and restricted to regular civilians. These areas would naturally be patrolled for violators of the ban and trespassers may be arrested or executed. In all probability, drones would end up in heavy use to do much of the leg work, but even if the crops are concealed, when someone goes out to tend or harvest the crops, they will run into the same problems all illegal growers experience - being caught in the act.
2. The Hemp plant is much more sturdy in a wild environment than most of the edible plants people have become accustomed to. While hemp seeds are highly nutritious, the fruits and vegetables people depend on for their sustenance are going to compose the bulk of their seed stores, and those seeds will not be as hardy in the wild. Put simply, the hemp plants are weeds and obscenely more resistant to damage than other crops:
Troops battle 10 foot Hemp Plants

The volume of crops a person can successfully grow and keep concealed will necessarily be a fraction of the monstrous fields of Iowa, even those of the early 20th century. Thus while seeds may have some value to some agricultural experts who are also extremely knowledgeable about how to grow crops in a hostile environment, the majority will not be able to put food in their stomachs and even those who can will not be able to reap the vast riches that internet infomercials claim a bag of seeds can provide.

While GMO free seeds should be stored and preserved for posterity, the reality of existing seed banks scattered across the globe indicates that even many tyrants are aware of this reality and in the long run, the seeds a person carries with them will have little to no impact in the grand scheme of things. While no one wants to wake up in a desert wasteland and have to replant the earth, millions of people across the globe have had the same nightmare prediction and many thousands have gathered together to take steps, on an industrial scale to prepare for such an eventuality. In other words, you aren't going to have a monopoly on seeds after SHTF.



posted on Jan, 7 2013 @ 06:37 PM
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reply to post by skynet2015
 


Wow good post! You made some very good points, that I had not really considered.

Luckily my town does not even have a police department, haha. The closest thing to it, will most likely be concerned with the neighboring town.

I dont store seeds, I own land, and in such a situation I like to think that this community wouldnt permit to much intrusion by anyone, and everyone owns guns. Perhaps wishful..

I do however prep, keep adequate food supplies. Not really for any kind of long term ordeal. More for storms, or power outages.

I hate to sound like a hippy or something, but when people talk about THEY what comes to my mind is neighbors, brothers, friends etc. Alot of police officers, and national guard members, arent going to go banging on Mrs. Miller's door. Their arent enough feds to control everything. That is pretty blatantly obvious now, with everything running as "good" as it is now. Just my thoughts.
edit on 7-1-2013 by Selfsecurity because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 7 2013 @ 08:14 PM
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seeds are worthless?

Hmm, Doomsday seed vault comes to mind...

Also to add.. there are more people in the USA alone that carry personal weaponry
to protect themselves then there are UN, US or Local enforcement.

The seeds statement is just plain stupid and a take over wont happen



posted on Jan, 7 2013 @ 10:00 PM
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Seeds are only worth as much as the person who has them. Saying they are worthless is kind of throwing the baby out with the bath water. If you honestly think that you will be able to single handedly grow enough food to get JUST yourself by then you are sorely mistaken my friends.
Back when people used to farm they did not live off what they grew, they grew a crap ton and traded their excess for the things they needed. You can grow lots of wheat by yourself but you can't live off it forever and if you think you can grow enough wheat (or any other produce) to sustain yourself AND have time to go hunting/fishing to get that needed protein then you have never really grown much.
Look, the bottom line is this. Survival is about making due with what you got. It always pisses me off when I see this retarded Rambo mentality with the one size fits all attitude towards survival. The best survivalist in Alaska probably would not make it very long in the Arizona desert and the best farmer in the world probably would not fare well in a city. The whole "seeds will be more valuable than gold" thing is just a marketing campaign for companies to sell their seeds.



posted on Jan, 7 2013 @ 10:16 PM
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seeds can be eaten in as fast as 3 days when sprouted.

2nd



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 02:14 AM
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Originally posted by IandEye
seeds can be eaten in as fast as 3 days when sprouted.

2nd


3 days? Surely you mean 3 minutes



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 04:09 PM
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reply to post by skynet2015
 


In a post-SHTF scenario, "ownership" is merely what can be held and defended. Zoning, etc. is out the window in such an environment. As for government bunkers, etc., presumably, whatever the scenario, you're still going to see a barter economy for the initial recovery period. So yes, seeds are still a good idea. As for legality, unless you're planning on broadcasting your stores, you really don't have much to worry about.



posted on Apr, 5 2013 @ 03:00 AM
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reply to post by skynet2015
 


Wow, for a forum as diverse in reach as the survival forums here, your approach is a one size fits all that assumes that government infrastructure and enslavement mechanizations will be intact in every possible scenario that one might consider having seeds for.

Here's some real truth: With things like gold and silver... I buy them, and then thats it. There it is, my big ol box of silver. Isn't it neat? I guess I can make some collodial silver, make some silver bullets to stop the werewolf epidemic thats sure to follow the zombie meltdown... actually I will add that pure silver can be added as a stage in custom water filtration arrays, but you might get my point. As an inventor / producer, metal can go up in value all it wants, but unless I sell this stuff I'm supposed to keep no matter what, market upticks dont really mean anything.

Now with stockpiled food, you can and should turn over the inventory (eat the stuff, unless its items packed by decades specs). You can trade the box of canned green beans, but you can't make more of them.

But wait, it turns out some 'food' are actually seeds. A 100lb. bag of dried beans can be eaten, grown into more, or broken down into smaller lots and traded.

Diversity is key, so I try and employ the full spectrum. I would never say that any 'good' seeds are a bad idea, but I insist that if everyone running around has the same cultivar of whatever, their value would be akin to inflated dollars. SO I chase every possible cultivar of every possible useful species I can dig up.

OP: You might note the the doomsday seed vaults arent for general use. You canT go and order stuff from them. They're diverse collections representing broad geographic regions. They're basically for is a Noah's Ark style flood wipes out Nigeria, then across the networks of seedbanks a great deal of the genetic materials lost are stocked. In the case of some, like Svalsbard, the contents of the seedbanks aren't even owned the the seedbank, each lot of materials are owned by the groups that sent them there. Conceivably, I could send a sample of my seedbank there, and it would be mine. Of all the seedbanks I've looked at (which is basically all of the in the world that can be found online in English), they're of no use, except I have found a couple related 'germplasm banks' (tropical rootcrops) that you can order from. A germplasm is any 'thing' that can be grown into a plant (a seed, cutting, root division etc). Of course, the .gov does surely have seebanks, and related germplasm banks, which are hardly much use to you or I than whatever 'stuff' some person in Nowhere Kansas is hoarding in there in their tornado shelter (as you so overabundantly stated).

But heres the catch, in massive infrastructure breakdowns, long lasting, not every place will be martial law. Here in Tamp, FL, this city will be amongst the first to go martial law, and possibly the last to go mad max. But without infrastructure, all the seedbanks in the world not much use to this aspiring warlord organization if they aren't here. Or course mine is, is one reason I want out this city. But luckily my real deal is in propagating germplasms from my array of perennials, many of which dont even make seeds, and many more of which my potential tyrants would have no idea what they are or what they're used for. Come take all my plants and inventory, but without my knowledge set it wont do you much good. They're better off 'taxing' me and allowing me to operate, I'm of much more use that way.

Annual vegetables are actually a luxury in my view, they're but elements in a diversified portfolio. And there's lots of different cultivars across the spectrum of useful species, meaning much lower odds of 'inflated' worth by having them around. Annuals plants don't make a 'food forest'. And carb requirements aren't met without rootcrops, the warmer your climate the better. A thing people might consider tho, is that a meager garden in the backyard, when you live a busy life working a fulltime job, isnt a proper comparison to if now the center of your world in maintaining and optimizing your every inch in producing food.

Back to my point of useful wealth, when i make chili using 35 different fresh peppers, 19 different dried peppers, 24 different tomatoes, 5 different onions, and so on... each bite exploding with a complex array of flavors... thats wealthful, 'choice', living the wealthiest person on earth has probably never fathomed as I never did until the first year I did it. My drums full of canned goods simply couldnt offer me that. There they sat. Werent they nice? Those damn worthless seeds... if only I handt made that my 1st tier of barter economy prepper strategy, I'd have never realized just how far the concept of wealth not being equated soley with dollars in bank goes.




edit on 5-4-2013 by IgnoranceIsntBlisss because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 5 2013 @ 03:51 AM
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reply to post by skynet2015
 


You're stuck in the stone age mate


You have never heard of or seen hydroponic/aeroponic gardens?

A little google search or youtube search on "veg hydro gardening" and it will give you some insightful stuff!

No soil necessary, can be moved around on wheels if you wish to do so, cuts growing time and all fruits and all veg can be grown all year round!


Hydroponic tomatoes are grown in a nutrient solution rather than soil. Growing tomatoes hydroponically allows the grower to raise them in a controlled environment without weeds, insects or soil-borne diseases. Hydroponic systems recycle water and nutrients, and optimize space. Hydroponic tomato plants grow faster than soil-grown plants, and their yield is greater.


Tomatoe Source :0

This will be the future!


edit on 5-4-2013 by zerozero00 because: can't spell



posted on Apr, 5 2013 @ 04:33 AM
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I would also just like to add that you do not need electricity, gas or fire to cook your food! There are stoves/ovens which are solar, not in that they use batteries which are solar powered/rechargeable but they have a small dish which gathers sunlight/heat and concentrates it in the "cooking area" and your food is cooked! These are in use in many areas in Africa to bake/grill/fry food! All you need is sunlight, your dish to collect the sunlight and focus it in the area where you need the heat and voila! Just google "Solar Cookers"!
edit on 5/4/13 by wiser3 because: (no reason given)


This IS the future!
edit on 5/4/13 by wiser3 because: (no reason given)





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