Intersex Athletes: Nowhere to Run?

June last year Pinki Pramanik was detained on charges of fraud and rape in India. The last we really discussed it on ATS, and heard about it on cnn.com was in this thread.

The CNN article stands like a quiet gravestone covered in smug commentary and incredulous statements about how gender tests are easy. I wish I could say a bit more about our ATS thread, but the results were quite similar. I'm not judging, or being mean - I know why people are like this. It's just a bit sad to me.

Following up on the story, Pinki's former partner and accuser has stated she made up the accusations to prove that Pinki was 'male'. Pinki had three gender tests (one in a viral video) before being declared male by police however, the very doctors that submitted the final report disagreed that she can be described as male precisely. She is intersex. Yet it seems a little like the justice bus has already left the station with several news sites eagerly describing her as male in multiple articles. I'm not saying Pinki Pramanik is a perfect person, but all of this just seems a bit severe; especially given Pinki was forced to stay in the male wards and written up as a man in her police reports. It just seems like an obvious conspiracy to embarrass the athlete and assasinate her character from reading. Though I can't be 100% sure.

To give people an idea on how difficult the gender question is in the sports, the International Olympic Comimittee (IOC) wrote their new regulations to avoid even defining gender after repeated failures are creating tests, and even dropping the tests entirely at one point:

Nothing in these Regulations is intended to make any determination of sex. Instead, these Regulations are designed to identify circumstances in which a particular athlete will not be eligible (by reason of hormonal characteristics) to participate

Source: www.olympic.org...

I bolded the most unusual part. The 2012 test is designed to detect 'Female Hyperandrogenism', which I feel is a dangerous precedent. Men are not subject to gender questioning tests on the completion of a particularly successful figure skate or gymnastics performance ... There is no limitation on naturally occurring hormones for male performers.

Androgenic hormones have performance enhancing
effects, particularly on strength, power and speed, which may provide a
competitive advantage in sports.

Source: www.olympic.org...

The 2012 message to intersex woman athletes appears to be that if you're strong enough, powerful enough, and fast enough ... you're probably a man! I have issues with this ... Ian Thorpe wasn't banned from the Olympics for being 'too much like a fish'. Particularly tall players in basket ball aren't required to run around on their knees to keep it competitive. Springy pole vaulters don't show up to events wearing a brick to even up the odds. Yet 2006 Asian games silver medal winner Santhi Soundarajan for example, now works in a brick kiln and had her achievements stripped from her due to being intersexed. Santhi was reported to have Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, a condition which seven athletes during the 1996 Atlanta Summer games tested positive for. They were allowed to compete.

At the time Santhi stated she didn't understand what was happening and asked if she could ever run again. In 2007 she attempted suicide after being removed from sports. Her current wage is reported to be around $3:60 American a day. I feel this is injustice.

I imagine some will say it's because intersexed people have too much of an advantage, but after the colourful backlash to Jenna Talackova's entry into Miss Universe, I simply can't reconcile with this. Keep in mind that a transsexual is not the same as an intersexed person, but the one thing this event showed me was that people weren't exactly roaring for the under dog ... Whilst showing up at a basketball game in a wheel chair is inspiring, showing up at a beauty contest starting line as a man isn't even respected a magic trick judging by some of the comments leveled at Talackova. The reaction to Pinki has been very similar, and Santhi isn't much better off. I can't help but feel there is an ongoing modern trend to disrespect, misunderstanding, and dismiss intersexed persons regardless of how they identify or what was placed on their birth certificate. The media and public often seem more than happy to hang people out to dry where an ordinary gendered person would get a rallying of strong support.

I do understand that cheating can be an issue, but there are also situations when the intersexed person's condition provides little or no physical benefit ...

So I raise questions:

•Where do intersexed people belong in sports? I struggle to accept that being an exceptional intersex athlete means no respect at all, or that being a woman with unique hormones instantly means you cannot compete. Can you suggest something that isn't a special seperate event?

•What would your advice be to an intersexed athlete or person when faced with the male/female check box on a form?

•Is a person being intersexed something to discuss in public? Or is it private business? Is it something to be embarrassed about?

I know there will be some ATS'rs that think that intersexed people don't exist/are modern creatures caused by pollution, are inventions by radical left wing people to destroy the family unit etc ... By all means have an opinion in that area, but I probably won't be addressing that side of it too muchly if I can avoid it. Feel free to respond via U2U as well I guess if you feel you have an interesting response or question I've not thought about but don't want to do the whole public post thingo.

Am honestly curious to see if anyone actually has an awesome answer or ideas, treat it like a thought puzzle I guess.

reply to post by Pinke


A far out thread, but I think your not going to get many fans or people who will support intersex athletes or for that matter that that there is a difference between intersex people and transgender people. In fact I had to Google it up. But to answer your questions.

Where do intersexed people belong in sports? I struggle to accept that being an exceptional intersex athlete means no respect at all, or that being a woman with unique hormones instantly means you cannot compete. Can you suggest something that isn't a special seperate event?

No I can not suggest any special separate event. If your talking about Olympics and such maybe they can have there own sports category. I dont watch much sports anymore, in fact the only sports I watched used to be combat sports, and I ain't going to lie, being a certain gender will give you the edge. So yes this would be a issue in pretty much any sports I can think off.

Thought that miss universe pageant contestant I looked at her pictures, and to tell the truth she even being transgender is more hotter then most females around even in that pageant. So I cant really comment on those type of competitions. But I can attest and even if she was the hottest women in the world as soon as dudes find out she was male, the whole outlook would change. For most its instinctual you know nature and conditioning and all.

However I really dont know, in fact i dont even know who those types of shows and competitions cater to, some months ago I was watching a beauty show for a few minutes, and in it you had models who looked like tall little boys who were taking advice from old dudes and marketers and the people who were telling them how to dress, and walk, and how to talk, and look like, and what was hot, or appropriate. Of which the ones coaching them were gay men, who made them dress like a sort of bland bizarre genderless dude ie more like them, and all that was supposed to be marketed to who? No clue, but obviously it is other women, or old rich dudes, or genderless people. Because most men dont watch that stuff. And lets just say our whole society is bizarre to say the least if one really looks at it.

So ya the smartest bet for anybody who would be on the sideline on issues like that, or issues like you bring up. In the end I think a lot of men dont care,in fact i think most just go for what is socially acceptable, some literally by what the TV and social pressure says they should be with and do.

But like i said generally people even me are going to stick to there believes and guns when and if the issue is pressed. But if your intersexed and got crazy hormones and what not, I mean that in some ways is not even on the map, but I see were it can give you an advantage at the least if you had high testosterone and were competing in a women field. It could be in effect tantamount to using steroids as that is what the majority of steroids do anyways.

Lets just say in sports and everywhere I do not think it is an issue that is going to be touched much less solved anything soon, nor would I expect much changes to be happening.

What would your advice be to an intersexed athlete or person when faced with the male/female check box on a form?

I dont know pick the one that you most feel you are both mentally/spiritually and physically, which again says nothing. If anything they should do some sort of test were they keep the participants of whatever sport withing a certain limit, ie if you got crazy high testosterone and even if you are intersexed. Sorry but I would say that would not fly, but then again who determines what limit is female and what male and whatnot. Or at least in women's sport.

I have no clue how this would work if you were very feminine and trying to compete with dudes. And seeing as the only sports I would compete in "if I was competing" or watch would be combat sport the only thing I can say is. Once that cage closes and the bell rings, male, female, whatever, all of that would be gone out the window. The only thing I would see is a giant moving target. Which ultimately I think all sports should be about, competition regardless, and not all this other meaningless junk.

But to deny that there is no physical differences and advantages and disadvantages is a complete lie. I really cant talk about intersexed people however, as even the ones I think I meat or seen would vary from person to person on just what gender they are, some were really feminine others practically dudes and anything in between. Even worked with a butch lesbians once in a while who has a girlfriend, and they joke about passing the condoms like most guys would. So ya! Who the hell knows now a days.

Is a person being intersexed something to discuss in public? Or is it private business? Is it something to be embarrassed about?

Nothing to be embarrassed about. Discretion about talking about it in public I would advice, it all depends on the people. Me I would not care all that much other the the the fact that you dont run into such people often, its not common but nothing to bat an eye at. While others would take it dead serious. No joke! I used to know this guy for a bit in highschool, and there used to be this one girl who I had a class with who had a gay/intersexed brother "or at least the guy was very feminine" and he went to the same school. Suffice to say the guy I once knew had a class with her brother, during recess or even class and more as playful banter her brother kissed him, or so I heard later. Anyways to make a long story short, the guy and another guy one day jumped him, literally beat the snot out of him, stomped him into the ground because of that stupid #.

So ya, there are those kinds of people out there as well. I would say, you can talk about such things in public but only in certain situations. If anything I dont really see how it would be anybody business but the people in question. So ya! It would be a user beware type of thing, while I do not believe most people would got to those lengths, some would, while other would just be indifferent, and yet others would not be able to relate at all. And what is worse? Who knows. And so the whole thing would be left in constant limbo.

I know there will be some ATS'rs that think that intersexed people don't exist/are modern creatures caused by pollution, are inventions by radical left wing people to destroy the family unit etc ... By all means have an opinion in that area, but I probably won't be addressing that side of it too muchly if I can avoid it. Feel free to respond via U2U as well I guess if you feel you have an interesting response or question I've not thought about but don't want to do the whole public post thingo.

OK I got to ask, cant help it and it may be better to do it over U2U/ but curiosity has got me by the tail and probably whoever else read your thread. I mean your going on about this thing. But whats with the pinki/pinke thing? I mean are you that pinki person? How is it that you relate to this sort of thing? I mean no offense, and believe you me I sometimes have a hard time figuring out what insults people. But what gives? Is this whole thing a personal topic/interest? Or just something that struck your fancy one day?

Should be DNA testing if any questions. Presence of a Y-chromosome would exclude any individual from participating in contests intended for females only. They're intentionally clouding an issue that should be straight forward.

galadofwarthethird
reply to post by Pinke

 

A far out thread, but I think your not going to get many fans or people who will support intersex athletes

Made this thread because a friend thought the opposite!

Don't disagree that gender changes sports performance, but I like to think some of the behaviour you talk about isn't completely due to nature and conditioning. It's probably more than am comfortable with either way, but I think at least some of it comes from a couple of thousand years of believing in a perfect creator and blaming abnormalities on witches and demons.

I'm not sure who watches beauty shows either, but I do notice that people who barely pay attention to them suddenly develop opinions when a #gender person is involved. Same thing happens whenever Oprah or someone discusses it. Instead of looking at it as a learning experience everyday people call it attention grabbing even when the next guest is coming on with a book and a speaking tour to sell!

I see were it can give you an advantage at the least if you had high testosterone and were competing in a women field. It could be in effect tantamount to using steroids as that is what the majority of steroids do anyways.

This is true, but some intersex conditions confer no useful benefit and aren't even detectable without testing. The outcome is often the same though.

Lets just say in sports and everywhere I do not think it is an issue that is going to be touched much less solved anything soon

Solved I agree with. Maybe I misunderstand about touched though? This has been an issue with combat sports, golf, the Olympics, tennis and piles of other things for decades.

ultimately I think all sports should be about, competition regardless, and not all this other meaningless junk.

Ultimately I don't believe the sex appeal quotient will be removed from women's sports. It's marketed as entertainment as well as competition on all levels I believe.

I found your comment about butch lesbians funny ... Women say crass things a lot, but being a lesbian lowers the chance for misunderstandings so it comes much more freely. I think sometimes there is this misconception that only lesbian women make crass jokes haha

curiosity has got me by the tail and probably whoever else read your thread. I mean your going on about this thing.

People are making quiet conclusions maybe but no one is actually curious in the slightest as far as I can tell. I get the odd message accusing me of being a leftist lunatic and that's about it. *gang signs*

But whats with the pinki/pinke thing?

Pinke is an unrelated German word.

How is it that you relate to this sort of thing? I mean no offense, and believe you me I sometimes have a hard time figuring out what insults people. But what gives? Is this whole thing a personal topic/interest?

I thInk the reverse is my question. Why doesn't it bother other people? Why is it even relevant to the discussion why I talk about it? Very few people ask me about my interests in politics, UFOs, Roman history, forensics, security, or religion ... yet this is a question that needs asking?

Shapelle Corby goes to prison over drug trafficking offenses, attractive young white Australian with known drug links and there is an out cry. Olympic gold medalist has their life ruined ... care factor zero. Not even just care factor less! Care factor actually flat line who cares zero.

Steroid cheats and people caught with contraband get more rope than an intersex person. That injustice enough I suppose makes it seem like a relevant topic no? Just my feeling.

reply to post by Pinke

Don't disagree that gender changes sports performance, but I like to think some of the behaviour you talk about isn't completely due to nature and conditioning. It's probably more than am comfortable with either way, but I think at least some of it comes from a couple of thousand years of believing in a perfect creator and blaming abnormalities on witches and demons.

People like there world to be just like they have it in there heads, any deviations from the norm or what they deem norm and it does not sit well or digest well with them. It is that way for everybody, period. They all just have different idiosyncrasies, and concepts of normality and acceptable.

I'm not sure who watches beauty shows either, but I do notice that people who barely pay attention to them suddenly develop opinions when a #gender person is involved. Same thing happens whenever Oprah or someone discusses it. Instead of looking at it as a learning experience everyday people call it attention grabbing even when the next guest is coming on with a book and a speaking tour to sell!

I dont watch any of that stuff either. I was just, I dont know I guess commenting on the absurdity and hilarity of gay dudes teaching women how to dress, look, walk, all because supposedly it is the thing men want to see. As you can see its pretty funny.

This is true, but some intersex conditions confer no useful benefit and aren't even detectable without testing. The outcome is often the same though.

I would not really know much about that. I think I will let them all sort it out, not that I think there will be any sorting out anyways.

I found your comment about butch lesbians funny ... Women say crass things a lot, but being a lesbian lowers the chance for misunderstandings so it comes much more freely. I think sometimes there is this misconception that only lesbian women make crass jokes haha

Well pretty much everyone who knows her, including her jokes about it and that was the least of what I suppose would be crass jokes she or others mentioned, and to tell the truth I think she may get a kick out of being thought of as a guy, her girlfriend is more feminine tough so who knows what kind of thing they got going on. But I suppose that's her thing. So you know, whatever.

I thInk the reverse is my question. Why doesn't it bother other people? Why is it even relevant to the discussion why I talk about it? Very few people ask me about my interests in politics, UFOs, Roman history, forensics, security, or religion ... yet this is a question that needs asking?

Well it was probably the one thing that made me respond to this thread when i read it. No offence, but you know. So yes this question needs asking...But you know...Ah forget it...Who cares. You dont want to say then dont say.

Steroid cheats and people caught with contraband get more rope than an intersex person. That injustice enough I suppose makes it seem like a relevant topic no? Just my feeling.

I think they feel its cheating. And it only seems to be "or at least of what I seen'" mostly in women's sports, I dont see any intersex feminine gals/guys trying to compete in male oriented sports. If you got a woman competing in an all women's sport, but her build and everything screams man, then ya there going to be called out on it.

As for the contraband and getting caught with steroids in your system. Your right, in a way its funny, because it says they care more about cheating in the "proper way" the way they are expected to cheat, and they let a lot of things slide, especially if the athlete in question is famous and putting butts in seats. However your right, throw something like this at them and all of a sudden it becomes a brick wall non negotiable situation.

Tusks
Should be DNA testing if any questions. Presence of a Y-chromosome would exclude any individual from participating in contests intended for females only. They're intentionally clouding an issue that should be straight forward.

Sorry I haven't responded to you sooner, it's not because I don't have an answer to the question ... it's partly because I get a little sick of answering it. No offense.

What you're suggesting (perhaps inadvertently) is that people with 46, XX/XY chromosomal abnormalities, people with chimeraism, and persons with AIS who present as women and have most of the characteristics of women be classified as men.

Several of the following women have XY karotype and could, via DNA testing, be considered 'under developed men':

Please circle the men in the photo and repost.

Thanks. >.

reply to post by Pinke


To be fair, it is quite simple:

Born as a man - Compete in mens.
Born as a woman - Compete in womens.

There is a reason that there are "men" and "women" categories.
There are physical differences.

Despite what people have removed or added.
Despite what hormones people have injected.

Call me crazy....

defuntion
reply to post by Pinke

 

Despite what people have removed or added.
Despite what hormones people have injected.

The people above naturally occur in the state they are in. They do not need to have any hormones injected or anything removed or added to have an XY karotype.

In some discussed cases the people themselves haven't known they were unique until they were tested.

Edit: If you're not 100% certain of what's being discussed please ask! But no one is making any claims that there aren't physical differences between men and women.

reply to post by Pinke


Guess I did not quite comprehend....

These are hermaphrodites??

reply to post by defuntion

Hermaphrodites are a form of intersexed person yes. Basically people with variations in sex characteristics that make it difficult to classify as completely male or completely female for one reason or another.

I don't have time for full mega replies at the moment but just a quick reply to galadofwarthethird:

The reason why you don't hear about intersexed persons competing in men's events is because no one cares to check. There is no limit on men's achievements as a gender, so no one generally cares if an intersex person identifies as male and wins an event.

reply to post by Pinke

The reason why you don't hear about intersexed persons competing in men's events is because no one cares to check. There is no limit on men's achievements as a gender, so no one generally cares if an intersex person identifies as male and wins an event.

As point I suppose you are right. But the categorizations and regulations for male and female are pretty different, and the sports would really depend as well. I mean take such sports as boxing, or strongman competitions or Olympic powerlifting or Olympic wrestling if you can compete with some of those guys I do believe no matter what your leanings either male or female you are definitely not the defined and spotlighted cover girl type if you know what I mean. And what I mean I seen some pretty strong females, but they were build like a truck and weighed more then most men, yet they would still not be able to physically compete with the dudes who are in some of those sports, not by a long shot. And if they are competing then I think either way you slice, to quote a cheesy movie, its as Austin Powers once put it "that's a man baby"


Even sports that would require a lot less physical strength or would be more bi-gender friendly ie it would not depend on any one attribute for either male or females characteristically biologically have to win in them, something like tennis or skying/snowboarding or long distance running or cycling. And from what I remember about your link about that pinky person, I think it was all about running. In which case I personally dont even see why they would have a gender split in such a sport. I think both male and females could cross train and compete with eachother if anyone was so inclined to do so in that and many sports. And that becomes even more obvious in long distance running/marathons as weight and strength would be out of the equation more so, and dexterity grit and stamina would carry you farther.


I mean there are many sports were being a certain gender even though people think one would have an advantage over the other that is not the case, and it will just come down to the athlete in question and there effort and skills no matter his or her gender, so ultimately it just comes down to what sport are you talking about? And yes in many ways its like you said, women's sports is catering to an audience, and men's sports are catering to another audience. So ultimately the factor is what there audience want to see, of which the promoters and the rules and regulations are protecting more so then the sport in question. Even in sport competitions there still the selling "it" to an audience aspect, most if not all sports are after all "spectator sports"

But anyways there. Your another one who does not seem to want to answer questions, or at least certain questions. Which is cool, but if you dont want to answer the gender question. Ok! How about the whole pinki thing? I mean you said its a and I quote "Pinke is an unrelated German word"

I could probably find out what it all means, I know at least one person who can speak German who would probably be able to answer that. That or I can just Google it up, however I'm to lazy you know. So does it like mean something in German? Or is it just something you attributed a meaning to, you know personal or some such. Trust me, the only thing that comes to mind when I hear the word pinki are the words Narf and Zoink...I know! I watch to much cartoons.

It just has to do with the hormones. If you're getting hormones in a certain cocktail then you have to compete with the men whether you think of yourself as one or not. Otherwise, it would be like letting a woman compete with other women who had been naturally juiced with illegal hormones.

In athletics its about having a level playing field and not about what gender a person feels they are. I understand that this would make it difficult for the intersexed athlete, and maybe it would even mean that the intersexed athlete would have to give up on some of their athletic dreams because of a abnormality they were born with, but so do people who are born with other abnormalities.

I'm sorry for them, but how far do we compromise an athletic competition to accommodate others?

Maybe we need to discover what normal hormonal parameters are for male and female (because it's the hormones that make the physical differences) and test the intersexed for those levels to determine where they should be competing? But even then, you would likely have to establish a record of testing those levels.

galadofwarthethird
reply to post by Pinke

 

In which case I personally dont even see why they would have a gender split in such a sport. I think both male and females could cross train and compete with each other if anyone was so inclined to do so in that and many sports.

Men have stronger bone structures around key areas such as the knees, and just a generally more robust skeleton. They also receive benefits quicker from most types of training. These elements do factor strongly into any cross gender competitions.

But anyways there. Your another one who does not seem to want to answer questions, or at least certain questions.

No idea who or what you're referring to.

Which is cool, but if you dont want to answer the gender question.

You asked around it a lot but you didn't actually ask it. It's the same as how you keep saying 'its cool' or variations of whilst also implying I'm evading or being somehow dishonest or unreasonable.

You'll find I respond fairly consistently regardless of the topic when questions are asked that I don't think are that relevant to the discussion or appear to be derailing / agenda based. This topic is not particularly special in that regard.

If you're asking if I'm a transsexual woman, the answer is no. If you're looking for a person out of curiosity there are several on ATS or you can always check out eharmony.

Ok! How about the whole pinki thing? I mean you said its a and I quote "Pinke is an unrelated German word"

I could probably find out what it all means

Click here for definition

Yes, you are lazy.

I'm also a Pinky and the Brain fan.

ketsuko
Maybe we need to discover what normal hormonal parameters are for male and female (because it's the hormones that make the physical differences) and test the intersexed for those levels to determine where they should be competing? But even then, you would likely have to establish a record of testing those levels.

Yes, it's what some major sports outfits are doing at the moment. It's why people with AIS can compete now.

Danke for the contribution.

reply to post by Pinke

OK I clicked your link and the majority of sites that came up were that Pinke means Pink, or sometimes Red or Red wine, or pink rose, and a bunch of such things. And also on some of those links there are a bunch of homosexual references attached to it in the German language. I take it that is what you meant.

But anyways like I said. I personally dont care the whole pinke thing was a passing curiosity which has passed. But on to the topic! Generally to tell the truth I do not watch any of those sports were this would be prevalent. And of those that I would watch, I still find it hard to care. Which again this is not about me, but the general fan, ultimately and like I said before, they seem to care. And the promoters are just angling to that viewing pool.

I mean yes there are real physical differences, but in any sport were that would be an issue I really do not see this bi-gender issue creeping up. Telling me that at the very least, yes this just may be about getting an edge on the competition. In other words it can be very much so about cheating, or at least looked at from a broader perspective and by the athletes in said competition, ultimately if you were to ask them what they think. Many I believe would be against it. The lines may be blurred on just exactly what a intersexed person may relate to, or what he or she thinks they are. But this is not about that. This is about what other people, including there fellow competitors think they are.

galadofwarthethird
reply to post by Pinke

 

OK I clicked your link and the majority of sites that came up were that Pinke means Pink, or sometimes Red or Red wine, or pink rose, and a bunch of such things. And also on some of those links there are a bunch of homosexual references attached to it in the German language. I take it that is what you meant.

Paging doctor Freud. Doctor Freud, ATS thread 915646. Ahahaha

I had a look, first six pages only refer to the color pink and payday. Maybe if you have been researching homosexuality a lot Google may have sky netted you and provided you with what it thinks you are looking for. I think it would be a bit crass to have a sexually based name on a web forum personally.

Will just agree to disagree about the issue creeping up. There have been AIS athletes in the last several Olympic Games. The question for me there is do the psychological implications of being AIS confer some form of tangible advantage and does that even matter, but it's still an issue.

I think it actually doesn't matter what other competitors or even the audiences think in sport. Sporting events lose credibility in the long term when they let prejudice and not facts rule decisions. Your casual viewer is also rarely aware of these athletes without massive media intervention also.

But oh well. Nice talking.

I have an answer to this no one is going to like. Sometimes there is just no answer. There is no law, no right, no divine providence that says people must be able to run, swim or ski in the Olympics if the want to. There is nothing that states a person who wants to play pro basketball must be accommodated no matter the curious issues in their lives.

Does it suck to be stuck in a DNA island - sure, but does that mean the world needs to be turned upside down over it? The notion of inclusion is something to behold, as folks seem to feel the glory they view on TV in such events is theirs to have as a right, when in fact the only reason the process is interesting is because the event is exclusionary. The process exlcudes those who can't run fast enough or at all and it excludes those whose genetic predisposition prevents them from being good swimmers.

I'll say that again. The only reason someone wants to run in the olympics is because running in the olympics is seen as special, exclusive. The process excludes people by design and there is no group that should be excluded over another - exclusion is exclusion.

This is just an unfortunate quirk that should be left alone, but it will be litigated in courts all around the world, forever and ever so my thoughts are pointless. If it were people who were toeless that could not run we'd laugh, but because "sex" and "gender" are akin to mystical visions we all drop to the floor when something like this arises.

crankyoldman
I have an answer to this no one is going to like. Sometimes there is just no answer. There is no law, no right, no divine providence that says people must be able to run, swim or ski in the Olympics if the want to.

Doesn't bother me at all!

For example, if someone is XX but develops like a male I wouldn't expect them to be allowed to compete in women's events.

reply to post by Pinke


I just clicked the link you gave me. Which took me to a bunch of things, and most of there were about what it said in the link. "Pinke German Translation" Those were the things that came up in the short time I looked at the links. Sorry to say but if Google says that pinky may be among and one of the things a sort of German slang for gay or whatever, who am I to say any different. I just assumed you were some wierdo dude who had some interest in this issue, possibly even one of these intersexed people. But hey all of that and this misunderstanding or whatever it is you trying to get at, could have been solved in about a minute if you would have just answered a simple question instead of trying to be a smart ass about it.

And the sports thing. Its all been said.

galadofwarthethird
reply to post by Pinke

 

I just assumed you were some wierdo dude who had some interest in this issue, possibly even one of these intersexed people.

But hey all of that and this misunderstanding or whatever it is you trying to get at, could have been solved in about a minute if you would have just answered a simple question instead of trying to be a smart ass about it.

There hasn't been any particular misunderstanding, I got what you were driving at straight away! The above quote just confirms it.

One isn't weird for taking stock of injustice.

reply to post by Pinke

There hasn't been any particular misunderstanding, I got what you were driving at straight away! The above quote just confirms it. One isn't weird for taking stock of injustice.

Are you sure about that? I mean who's to say who's right and who is wrong? Maybe just maybe you may be seeing things. And you acting all weird about a simple question does not somehow make things better, or correct, it only just makes me question why it is your acting up about it in the first place.

Besides its an important question in finding out what exactly it is your getting at, got to know the messenger and were he or she really stands to better grasp the whole point of this thing. Now like I said most guy and gals this topic is not even on there radar, the majority would not even know the difference between a intersexed person and a dude wearing a wig and would need to take a 3 week seminar to drum it into there heads that there may be a difference.

Now if you were a intersexed person maybe I could take you a bit more serious as you would likely have some personal experience on this subject. Or! Maybe you would be a bit more biased and leaning toward one opposite end of general people. But anyways, listen here Pinke person, whoever you are, or whatever your trying to get at. I think its quite obvious that maybe the best solution is to keep popular opinions and sports chatter out of this.

They can take this on an individual level, hell they could even take a poll and ask the other competitors in whatever sport the intersexed person is competing in what they think. They can even take a poll on whether or not to let the person in question compete and leave everybody else out of it. And then may the best athlete win. Simple solution really, but you and I know there is more going on in any major sport then is shown, in fact there is more going on in pee wee kids sports then meets the eye. And so things will always go in circles in some instances and cases. Something like this being one of those instances and cases, even if every athlete in the sport said they would not care. And if its a big money sport the $$ would probably put deterrents on that just because nobody would want to hurt sales, or mess with the bottom line.