Let's help the Federal reserve die.

I am just going to chime this in for everyone to just to have an idea of where this information is originally coming from..

The guy who originally put this out on the web, and I'm sure the OP got it from one of this guy's many persona's/ posts across the internet, is named David Merrill Van Pelt, and he is a sham/scam, and one of the people that claims you can get away with all sorts of things like Accepted For Value, and also other ways of scamming the government out of money and trying to declare sovereign citizen status etc.

Does anyone remember the name Bernard Von Nothaus and the Liberty Dollar and what happened to him? Well the same thing is with Van Pelt, he casts dubious translations (of his own) of US Code and claims it's the foolproof way to "pay back the US Public Debt" or that banks cave at the very sight of it (in fact a good portion of the OP's opening post is word for word from one of Van Pelt's posts on another site, so i wouldn't be surprised if the OP got it directly from the horses.........)

Use caution with any of these little things that people would have you do, while they seem innocent enough and helpful to try and "beat the evil Fed" int eh end you could end up like so many of the people that followed these tidbits of advice, behind bars...

Click here for more information.

Originally posted by VforVendettea
By your definition every 20$ bill swiped with a counterfiet test pen is defaced.

Show me what prison those bill checking scofflaws are thrown into?

Come up with an intelligent rebuttle which shows some thought and research or go away,

Unless you can prove otherwise I am considering you one of the oft mentioned paid shills.

edit on 7-1-2013 by VforVendettea because: (no reason given)

First I will start with the fact that all I have posted is research, you are reposting a scam.

Secondly it is against the rules of this site to accuse anyone who doesn't see things exactly your way or points out that something isn't on the up and up a "paid shill" a "disinfo artist" etc, it's against the T&C's.

Thirdly you dont' read anything obviously or you would read that I hate the Federal Reserve and I am all for LEGAL remedies to their tyranny.

Checking something to be counterfeit is not defacing, it is covered by law, as you cannot pass a counterfeit bill. However, writing "Bill loves Hillary" on the back (or front) of a one dollar bill is against the law, simple.. no? Ok, so anyhow, since you seem to think you totally understand this (this one has been passing around since about 2006?) please post one case where this has worked in someone's favor, I know you can't except for Mr VP's people posting fake stories about how banks keel over..

I've seen too many people end up with too many problems and court dates because of these scams to not say something...

To finish, comparing apples and oranges just gets you a mess, there's a major difference between detecting a fraudulent bill and writing on a bill, oh and maybe you missed the little tag after my username, says "fighter" means i've proven myself in the debate forum with facts and research just a notation..

Show me the droves of people who are in jail for 'writing on' federal reserve note!
Show me the groups of people who are in jail for 'writing on' federal reserve note!


Not the ones who use this to evade taxes
Not the ones fall back on the coinage act and say that a 20$ FRN should be redeemed for a 20$ gold piece.

But the meat of your badgering and baiting (not debating) but plain and ugly baiting is that if someone writes on a FRN redeem and quote the US Code that the FEd must abide by by comtract law then the author of the missive will immeadiatly have a swat team kickdown their door and drag them to their doom never to be seen from again.

Show me when this has EVER happened.
And cite the judicial decision. I'm done doing your work for you
This isnt high school where you can bully the smart kid into doing your homework for you.
If you have an opinion back it up with proof.

Show me where someone has gone to jail for writing a redemption missive on a federal reserve note that they lawfully possess.


Not a cashier - teh money is not hers.
Not someone trying to evade taxes.
Not a bank robber who wrote "this is a holdup"

Show me where someone who wrote a message of valid protest on the money that they earned has gone to prison.

reply to post by VforVendettea


Why do you want the Federal Reserve to die? What is wrong with the Federal Reserve?

reply to post by XXX777


I want a lot more than that to die !

hit by mistake

reply to post by VforVendettea


No offense, but I think you need to learn a) how to respond and b) when research is posted to you read it.. It's a very simple google search for Van Pelt and his scam and the fact that he's been arrested a few times on this. Also other persons found via a google search for the terms:

"Lawful Money 12 USC 411"

Turned up titles like this:

F.B.I. at my door for using the term of "Lawful Money"!!

Now.. That may not mean much to you, but to the rest of us, that have been around here a while and have seen scams come and scams go, and have seen posts like this where the person making the post has no idea what they've walked into, they think it's a great idea, post about how it's a great idea and find out later that they got burned because they didn't do due diligence researching the claims made.

Unfortunately this is just another one of those scams, and I'll say it again, just like Accepted for Value, that is being targeted to all of us that are just so sick of the Fed making bad monetary policy (and they do make really bad policy) that we are all willing to try anything, again, unfortunately, some of them aren't exactly kosher, and end you either with huge fines, large court fees OR worse..

So in this case, while I am trying to calmly show you that it is really not in anyone's best interest to follow this particular plan of action, you are still responsible to show how and why this is a good idea, and how, using examples of people who have actually been able to redeem "lawful money" have accomplished that. To my end I have provided the exact court decision that states that Federal Reserve notes are Lawful Money, and that should be the end of that...

You aren't the first person to fall for one of these scams and you certainly won't be the last, but it's nothing to get overly emotional about, we've all been there at one point or the other...

reply to post by vkey08


You have been badgering me for two pages and 11 posts and at least 8 of them do not pertain to this thread.

reply to post by VforVendettea


Having read through this, it appears to me as though you presented your position and VK countered with a strong rebuttal and showed flaws in your argument. I would say it's less like badgering and more like an attempt to enlighten you so that rather than spin your wheels scribbling on money, you may be part of actual change.

Writing on money will never have the impact that writing to your Senator and/or Congress person will have.

reply to post by VforVendettea


exactly how does pointing out that this is just another scam (and in the end that's all it is) by a noted scam artist (and yes it is yet again) and when I point out to you that it is a scam with references and proof, all you come back with is I'm badgering you?

I guess I'm confused, this thread was about the "Lawful Money" scam was it not?

So here again it all is, in simple terms..

In fact let me start with a quote i found elsewhere that sums it up PERFECTLY..

The fact that you sincerely and wholeheartedly believe that the “Law of Gravity” is unconstitutional and a violation of your sovereign rights, does not absolve you of adherence to it.

1) Writing Redeemed in Lawful Money Pursuant to 12 USC 411, no longer has any real meaning in today's world, in 1964 the "Payable to Bearer Upon Demand" was removed from the notes, and in 1971, altogether from America's monetary laws. Requoting a phrase from 1913 does not make it legal.

2) Writing above on your checks, does not stop the bank from using any money in it's coffers to make loans and/or stop them from issuing credit based upon the amount they have deposited, it's all been amended and changed so many times, you need to look at the full laws to understand it all, but people who are advocating this line of endorsement do so with the intent of not having to pay income tax upon it, other than that it's just words and any bills with it written upon it would be immediately returned to the Federal Reserve for destruction and have new bills printed to replace them (serial numbers with the little stars after them are replacement bills)

3) We have established that the courts will not uphold your "demand" for lawful money as they state that the FRN is lawful money, for all debt public AND PRIVATE. This simply means, the dollar bill you have on your dresser, is Lawful Money...

4) We have also established that "Defacing" is referring to either side, the Obverse (Heads) or the Reverse (Tails) side of a piece of currency. It is illegal no matter which way you try to spin it.

So what do we end up with? A very very shady theory started in the early 80's that has since regained traction in recent years through the (rather insane) internet antics of David Van Pelt et al. However, he as do you fail to realize one little problem with this theory...

United States Notes were redeemable in gold until 1933, when the United States abandoned the gold standard. Since then, both currencies have served essentially the same purpose, and have had the same value. Because United States Notes serve no function that is not already adequately served by Federal Reserve Notes, their issuance was discontinued, and none have been placed in to circulation since January 21, 1971.

USN and FRN are identical nowadays, and one is no more "lawful" than the other..

So, we are still discussing 12 USC 411 here, and this is all relevant to that discussion, in order to understand why, this is not only an illegal act, and has no real bearing on the monetary system in any way, it's really just another way for certain people to try and scam money out of you for the purposes of trying to slay the evil dragon.

I will finish by stating ONCE AGAIN for the heard of hearing (or reading): I Do Not Like or Subscribe to the Policies of the United States Federal Reserve and Think They Should Be Done Away With THROUGH LEGAL MEANS, not through shams like this...

(I'm so glad i got a new MacBook Pro to type this on, my hands are starting to cramp from all the research..)

Originally posted by Helldorado
reply to post by VforVendettea

 

Writing on money will never have the impact that writing to your Senator and/or Congress person will have.

Actually, if you black out several letters at the top of the $1 bill you can create a F A R T note that will impact the funny bone.

reply to post by XXX777


But you won't go to jail for that.
Nor retiring bills
Nor non endorsing your deposits (or the checks you issue)
Actually I handle very little money when it comes right down to it. I do pay a lot of bills though and get a lot of checks which would have been 'my' main contribution.

reply to post by vkey08


Don't you waste your time.
I am passing over what you are posting, your opinion has no value to me.
You are not someone whose advice good or bad I would take your given the impression that you left.
You seem very young you will develop wisdom eventually.
There is a reason they say children should be seen and not herd, because they are 'usually' pleasant to look at but their inane babbling is exhausting to listen to. Your first qualification is lacking on an online forum so you might try to improve the second.

Originally posted by VforVendettea
reply to post by vkey08

 

Don't you waste your time.
I am passing over what you are posting, your opinion has no value to me.
You are not someone whose advice good or bad I would take your given the impression that you left.
You seem very young you will develop wisdom eventually.
There is a reason they say children should be seen and not herd, because they are 'usually' pleasant to look at but their inane babbling is exhausting to listen to. Your first qualification is lacking on an online forum so you might try to improve the second.

I just have to ask, are you being so insulting because you realize that not once have i deviated from fact? Or are you just anti-women actually knowing something about this topic? Considering the amount of U2U's I have gotten commending the posts I have made in this thread and ON TOPIC, I suggest that you re-read them and do your own bit of research, and not rely on the ramblings of Internet Snake Oil Salesmen.

I have done a lot of research on Sovereign Citizen issues, I was originally enticed by the idea that I could just throw off the shackles of the Government that I used to work for, and be my own person, free of taxes and burden, but alas, that didn't quite work out the right way. I found out very quickly that if it sounded too good to be true it probably is, and have quite an extensive file on all of the different scams, from Accepted for Value, to USC411, to even the "I am So and So of So and So" and my name has to be capitalized because capitalized it's significant of them owning me. Hate to inform you, its all bunk.

I won't tell you how old I am, just that I have children of my own.

Originally posted by vkey08I won't tell you how old I am, just that I have children of my own.

What do you want? Three cheers for being fertile?
12 year old girls are bearing young. It does not mean that they are smart or an asset to society.

Originally posted by VforVendettea

Originally posted by vkey08I won't tell you how old I am, just that I have children of my own.

What do you want? Three cheers for being fertile?
12 year old girls are bearing young. It does not mean that they are smart or an asset to society.

edit on 7-1-2013 by VforVendettea because: (no reason given)

I am coming very close to reporting you to staff for being insulting and launching personal attacks upon me for nothing more than proving my point about your topic.

You have called me a "paid shill" which was blatantly against the rules, you have insulted my age, my education, my gender, what's next, the fact that I like to drink coffee? In all of it, you have yet to return to the topic you yourself accused me of not responding to, when in fact I did, over and over and over, citing sources and law and court decisions based upon the scam you are asking people to partake in.

You countered by trying to argue the meaning of the word Deface, which as anyone knows and another member besides myself pointed out, means either side of the bill/coin/etc that is being referred to. Yet you started hurling insults again when your point flew apart in the face of reason.

So once again I give you something related to your topic for you to understand maybe why the whole thought that you can just endorse a check citing 12 USC 411 and thinking that it means you can have that money tax free and that somehow it is "lawful money" is nothing more than a misrepresentation of the real facts.

To understand the current version of the statute, one needs a little history. The predecessor version of 12 USC § 411 was first enacted as 38 Stat. 265 in 1913. The U.S. was on the gold standard in 1913, "redeem" meant something very different than it does today, and the statute in so many words permitted redemption in gold. In 1934, the Gold Reserve Act nationalized privately-held gold bullion (not, obviously, ornaments and jewelry), and eliminated the provision of § 411 that permitted redemption in gold. However, there were still other forms of lawful money in circulation then - silver certificates, U.S. Notes, and perhaps one or two others. Those no longer exist today, but that provision of § 411 remains, basically an anachronism. The law contains many anachronisms. I'm sure everyone has seen the compilations of laws still on the books which do things like prohibit herding cattle on Main Street.

Now taking into context the fact that this is 2013, and the law was written 100 years ago with an entirely different meaning in context, you start to see that the whole argument falls apart. In 1913 they did not have instantaneous transfer of money around the world, they did not have credit cards, they did not have computers, and they most certainly didn't think that the world was going to change that much.

But it did, only 16 years later. The market tanked, and in 1933 we went off the gold standard as a way to stabilize the economy. We did it, we survived it, but it's biting us in the rear now. But the age where the term "lawful money" meant something different had passed.

So for the last time, without being insulting, without throwing wild punches, please just listen and read.. please.. for your own good.

People who push these scams end up in serious trouble, or worse..

I could not have said this pat better if I tried:

Some who peddle nonsense like Paul Andrew Mitchell, David Wynn Miller, David Merrill Van Pelt and Shaini Goodwin have wandered so far off into lala land that even the less-than-knowledgeable reader will shake their head and worry about all the people in this country who can’t get proper medical attention.

And since you still don't understand that the person whom came up with what you posted as "fact" is not entirely all there I present to you...

"Jesus Christ of Nazareth paid the ransom in blood for me on the cross and my motorcycle is part of the eternal inheritance in general," Merrill wrote in his complaint. He signed it with his thumbprint.

From an article explaining how Mr Van Pelt sued Jesus over his confiscated Motor Scooter and lost.... Now.. Is *this* the type of person that you are willing to pay huge fines, and court fees because of? Please... tell me you are smarter than that..

And no that was not an insult nor was it ever meant to be...

You asked what I wanted, I want the courtesy to be able to respectfully disagree with someone without being insulted..

Originally posted by XXX777
reply to post by VforVendettea

 

Why do you want the Federal Reserve to die? What is wrong with the Federal Reserve?

A lot.
How much time do you have?

reply to post by vkey08


I can comprehend the meaning of regulations and codes, I read them a lot in my line of work and can quote entire section of Title 22, 49 CFR and after reading 12 USC Sec. 411 it is quite clear on the redemption of the notes.
Now I was going under the assumption that the majority of the readers were smart enough to understand the meaning of the original thread. And this particular code gives them the right to dictate that the notes that they hold be redeemed in lawful money. We all know lawful money doesn't exist anymore but US notes are treated as if they ‘were’ lawful money.

Then you come out of nowhere and post cases which are so far off the point I posted that it is akin to you telling a parent teaching their child how to use a crosswalk on a green light that they are not allowed to cross the street because it is jaywalking.
And when the pedestrian tells you that no it isn't they are within their rights per V C Section 21954 you respond with the equivalent of how you know of so many people who have gotten tickets for crossing the same street (while carefully omitting these people were crossing the same street halfway down dodging traffic and creating a driver hazard)
And when the parent corrects you and points out the difference between crossing down the street and crossing in a crosswalk you bring out the more outlandish example of how people are killed by cars while in the street and nothing happened to the driver (once again omitting facts like they were trying to cross a freeway (or take a picture from a freeway lane)) until the parent tells you to go away.
Even then you don’t stop but keep badgering and berating (suddenly the parent notices that the shirt you are wearing says for example Circuit City and the only store on the other side of the crosswalk is a Best Buy and that it is not safety nor legality that you are interested in but something else that profits you.

You tipped your hand on this thread long ago. You have a strong motivation defend the federal reserve and keep people from applying the option in 12 USC Sec. 411 – too strong to just be a casual interest.

Everything after has just been you throwing a tantrum because I am not hanging on your every word.

I intend to do what I proposed with or without your approval. I will pay all taxes owed on the earned money and in spite of your threat I will not be visited by any alphabet agency. I will probably have a letter spat with the bank but that is the extent of it.

Originally posted by VforVendettea
reply to post by vkey08

 

I can comprehend the meaning of regulations and codes, I read them a lot in my line of work and can quote entire section of Title 22, 49 CFR and after reading 12 USC Sec. 411 it is quite clear on the redemption of the notes.
Now I was going under the assumption that the majority of the readers were smart enough to understand the meaning of the original thread. And this particular code gives them the right to dictate that the notes that they hold be redeemed in lawful money. We all know lawful money doesn't exist anymore but US notes are treated as if they ‘were’ lawful money.

Simply not true, it's been proven time and time again by the courts that Federal Reserve Notes are Lawful Money and that there is nothing to 12 USC 411 that would entitle anyone to endorse or otherwise restrict the usage of it, plain and simple.. People have been arrested and have been visited by the FBI for trying this scam, and well, it's better that you know all of it than only a part of it.

You tipped your hand on this thread long ago. You have a strong motivation defend the federal reserve and keep people from applying the option in 12 USC Sec. 411 – too strong to just be a casual interest.

Everything after has just been you throwing a tantrum because I am not hanging on your every word.

Actually nothing I wrote "defends the Federal Reserve" What i have written and will continue to write about wherever I happen across it, is the fact that an entire scam industry has grown out of the thought that with a few misquotes and misdirections, you too can free yourself of the burden of taxes, of debt etc, and this is just one more of those scams, you heard it SCAM. The person responsible for pushing this theory of 12USC411 has been in and out of trouble over it, banned from many places across the net because of his refusal to prove that it is a) legal and b) works.

As for throwing a tantrum, please show me where I did. It seems to me that you are the one throwing insults, accusations and implications because someone has a brain and decided to research all of this nonsense, i've given quote after quote, and link after link to prove that this is nothing more than a scam, to show where it ties into the A4V and Freeman scams, and you continue to ignore it all.

You also keep missing the fact that i have applauded the fact that you want to take a stand against such a rotten agency as the Fed, I have supported (and it's the only thing of his i've supported) Ron Paul's call to audit them, I have written many a letter to Congress begging them to pass a full audit, and have researched much about the Sovereignty movement, from the rather out there notion that we are under something called Admiralty Law (simply not true) to the claims that you can keep banks form lending out your money to others by a simple endorsement. All of it is false, and misleading, and in the end, gets people into trouble.

Maybe if you show where this works (and not a thread by Mr Van Pelt or however he writes out his name these days) where a normal person was able to stop a bank from lending out their money, and where a person was given any remedy by somehow redeeming in "lawful money" I am all ears.. From the research I've done though, it is just another scam to try and beat the evil dragon..

As for code, I too ham extremely familiar with USC and the CFR as daily I have to put them to use , so that's nothing that you can use to try and be high and mighty..

Concluding,

1)so far you have shown, that you are advocating breaking the law, based upon something you read on the internet, based upon the ramblings of a known scam artist (as I have pointed out I can find the entirety of the first part of your Op word for word elsewhere online., as well as the notations by Mr Merrill-Van Pelt that you somehow have to use $ with 2 lines because one line is whatever.. )

2) You are refusing to acknowledge that there are many differing opinions, and have resorted to personal attacks.

3) You cannot source anything other than 12USC411 did mean something at one time, it does not any longer, as you have conveniently not added all the amendments that have come since that nullify your theory..

Please explain how that is me "tantruming"