Remnants of a Lost World: Ancient Atlantic Mariners - Navigation

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posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 05:32 PM
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Once again, great thread, Slayer.
Its interesting to wonder about the possibility of these ancient people having time pieces. It makes me wonder if there is any other way to get, at least a rough idea, of longitude without one. An hour glass suspended from a rope with a swivel attached perhaps?
A dude banging steadily on a drum while someone else counts? Etc. Wouldn't be exact, but both would get ya close.




posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 05:36 PM
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DAMN YOU SLAYER


Reading your ridiculously well thought out, interesting and intelligent threads, all subsequent links and follow up info must have cost me at least 3 days of my life since Ive been here.

Well so much for being productive this morning,

S&F

P.S hate to leave the rant tone but thanks dude, threads like yours are what the site should be about
edit on 6/1/2013 by IkNOwSTuff because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 06:38 PM
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I appreciate all the feedback I thought many of you would find this interesting. Wait till you see what's in store for the Pacific


Stay tuned.



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by SLAYER69
I appreciate all the feedback I thought many of you would find this interesting. Wait till you see what's in store for the Pacific


Stay tuned.


You know I will be. Send a me another U2U when it's ready.


-SAP-



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 07:08 PM
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Here is something interesting, Slayer. Possible proof-of-concept of ancient longitudal knowledge as far back as 232BC. The device is basically a torquetum. In 232BC Alexandria commissioned an attempt to circumnavigate the Earth. Apparently when Navigator Maui made it to New Guinea he inscribed in a cave that the Earth is tilted. He reasoned so because once they crossed the equator the constellations were no longer what they should have been. He also drew his device and called it his calculator.
I'm still reading up on it, but here is the link.
www.21stcenturysciencetech.com...


ETA: Scratch that, this IS proof of concept. Fascinating! That article leaves me fairly convinced that the Egyptians knew longitude AT LEAST as far back as 232BC. That voyage was their attempt to prove the concepts they already had established. And boy did they ever. They made it to North America! And now I also know how the island of Maui got its name.
edit on 6-1-2013 by JayinAR because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 07:47 PM
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Originally posted by ~widowmaker~

i "believe" as well. ^^ i think its silly to keep thinking ancient man as pathetic.


Ancient man was as capable as we are today. They might not have had the technology just yet but they were able to do amazing feats that many today say there must be aliens involved....well guess what, no aliens needed.

That is what people have a hard time understanding that Man has always been able to do great things, for their era. I too feel man has traveled all over the world. The problem though is these world travelers never actually got a foot hold and so we don't have much on their existence.

DNA would be our best bet, but if not that then maybe technology traveled and though the ones bringing the technology died out their technology survived.



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 07:49 PM
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Originally posted by SLAYER69
I appreciate all the feedback I thought many of you would find this interesting. Wait till you see what's in store for the Pacific


Stay tuned.


yes! i was going to ask you about that
seeing there were ancient mariners of other oceans and seas

will you be mentioning the Phaeacians?

The Phaeacians possessed remarkable ships. They were quite different from the ancient galleys, the ships used during the Trojan War, and they were steered by thought. King Alkinoös says that Phaeacians carried Rhadamanthus to Euboea, "which is the furthest of any place" and came back on the same day.[4] He also explains to Odysseus what sort of information the Phaeacian ships require in order to take him home to Ithaca.[5]

Tell me also your country, nation, and city, that our ships may shape their purpose accordingly and take you there. For the Phaeacians have no pilots; their vessels have no rudders as those of other nations have, but the ships themselves understand what it is that we are thinking about and want; they know all the cities and countries in the whole world, and can traverse the sea just as well even when it is covered with mist and cloud, so that there is no danger of being wrecked or coming to any harm.

Homer describes the Phaeacian ships as fast as a falcon and gives a vivid description of the ship's departure.

The ship bounded forward on her way as a four in hand chariot flies over the course when the horses feel the whip. Her prow curvetted as it were the neck of a stallion, and a great wave of dark blue water seethed in her wake. She held steadily on her course, and even a falcon, swiftest of all birds, could not have kept pace with her.[6]


they came to mind, while reading your latest.

a long lost post catastrophe remnant technology?
probably being used by people with only a dim understanding/remembrance of the science behind the tech?

with the passing of time, as the knowledge was lost, bits and pieces may have been kluged
thus objects like the antykythera mechanism, the torquetum, the egyptian sextant, and you can cobble up a sextant using a protracter, string, a plumb, and a hollow reed, so i dont understand some of the academics here being tiffed and insisting its a surveyors and NOT a navigational instrument, as if arguing how and what a tool was used for specifically eliminates all possibility that it may have had other uses


interesting too is while there is, according to wiki at least, an academic consensus that the home of the phaeacians
is corfu, the evidence says otherwise

The Greek word Phaiakians (Φαίακες) is derived from phaios (φαιός)[7] meaning gray, hence Phaiakians means "dark-skinned". The Phaiakians in the Odyssey did not know Odysseus (although they knew of him, as evidenced by the tales of Demodocus), so they called him a "stranger". Odysseus however was the king of the majority of the Ionian Islands,[8] not only of Ithaca, but also "of Cephallenia, Neritum, Crocylea, Aegilips, Same and Zacynthus"[9] so if Schería was Corfu, it would be surprising that the citizens of one of the Ionian Islands did not know Odysseus. Furthermore, when Odysseus reveals his identity, he says to the nobles: "...if I outlive this time of sorrow, I may be counted as your friend, though I live so far away from all of you"[10] indicating that Schería was far away from Ithaca. From the ancient times, some scholars having examined the work and the geography of Homer have suggested that Scheria was located in the Atlantic Ocean. Among them were Strabo and Plutarch. Many characteristics of the Phaiakians, including their seafaring and relaxed lifestyle are suggestive of Minoan Crete. The latter similarities make Scheria also suggestive of Atlantis. Helena Blavatsky proposed in her Secret Doctrine (1888) that it was Homer before Plato who first wrote of Atlantis.[11] Aside from the seafaring prowess, the palace walls that shone like the sun are read to be covered not by bronze but orichalcum.
Geographical account by Strabo

Approximately eight centuries after Homer, Strabo, the geographer criticized Polybius on the geography of the Odyssey. Strabo proposed that Schería and Ogygia were located in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.


dark skin could be black, but not nescesarily,

what if the phaeacians were ancient americans?

what if history lies, and it was ancient america that 1st discovered the "old world"?


oh, F&S
edit on 6-1-2013 by DerepentLEstranger because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 08:16 PM
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reply to post by Xtrozero
 


Well I wouldn't count them out "aliens", but Im pretty sure an advanced civ would not be hear making friends. heh how did that work for the American Indians,Australian Aborigine?, south African blacks, Indians in south America, ect ect. And that was to our own kind. So sad, but I highly doubt they helped make stone buildings if they had ships and tech to teach us metal working ect ect. And although I don't believe in any religion , I have been through religious schools and learned different religions, most of the stories don't sound like a god punishing people, it sounds like another civ F'd us up back to the stone age.



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 08:29 PM
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reply to post by Blackmarketeer
 


That's a really good post,
But I'd have to disagree about the phonecians, they were late comers to the scene. They filled in the vacuum left by the collapse of the minoan trade "empire", after the loss of thera.
But what I do think the phonecians did was incorporate a very ancient maritime traditions in Libya, and elswhere in north Africa.
People of the med had been sailing the med for 700 years by the time the phonecians arrive on the scene.
And the routes thay followed go deep into history and evolved out of the trade in obsidian.
It was the north African berbers who made it out to the canary islands.
The people who don't get enough credit for their sailing skills are the dravidians of the indus. They were the people who tied south Asia together, trading with Africa as you said, and eastward to Indonesia and possibly beyond.



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 08:29 PM
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reply to post by SLAYER69
 


Something else someone may want to consider, if he were so inclined, would be linguistic similarities between Ancient Egyptians and Native North American Indians. Specifically from the area of Louisiana. Man, this rabbit hole goes DEEP. I think someone can make a VERY strong case for Ancient Egyptian presence in North America, coming from both the Atlantic and Pacific oceans.



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 09:04 PM
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a pic kindly posted for me by six67seven

(sorry got to top of page 2 on that thread)

Looks remarkably similar to me to what the big fellah is holding on the tablet of shamesh.
The timber one in your pic has another hole (rectangle) on the side with the two round ones, sounds silly but i assume this thing is hollow, has anyone tried to blow it like a flute? That's 6 individual notes if I'm correct,
It has a grubby shadow where fingers could have gone, from a build up of use.
What's the chances of them ripping it out of that glass cabinet to give it a blow?


Incidentally the translation for that tablet doesn't match the carving imho, like that's not the story it's telling, just saying.....

I remember reading a thread and following some crumbs to a story of two brothers who made it to Australia, some say it's been debunked, but I doubt it. Especially when there are indiginous stories to correlate with, including certain words in their language which remain similar to very far off cultures including egyptian (don't quote me on that)
They deffinately got around though.
and if they had the technology to build in a way that us dreamers would like to think they did, then they couldn't or didn't, translate this technology to ocean travel (on this plane of reality), perhaps it doesn't work over water, hence oars and sails.

link
I don't know which thread now (sorry) and I usually follow links and crumbs till I'm completely lost and have to go back to the begining again, (I hope that's not the story of my life, just saying...but it does mean I find the begining in the end so eh!)

I love the maps, I studied the piri a while ago in, searching for journey to the centre type stuff
got stuck on maps for days and days


I want to share a theory with you about when they built the pyramids, right or wrong it is what it is.
After everything I've read on Egypt and what I've learnt in the last year, it is clear to me the Ancient Egyptians understood resonance in a big way, land especially and rock, (among many other things of course) but spiritual energy of the land type stuff. (Is there somewhere a comprehensive ley line map that you know of?)

Now they either built those things (pyramids) on the backs and blood sweat and tears and misery of a slave class of people, probably and possibly loosing untold thousands in the process.
But this doesn't make sense to me because they would've known that if all that negative energy was accumilated on site their healing/magic would not have worked as it should. The site would have been contaminated.
They understood memory of bones otherwise imbalming wouldn't have happened, the Earth/ground has the same type of energy.
They could have even used mass suggestion (power of breath, which is real), of a similar fashion that is employed today in most things, albiet a plastic shoddy version.
I think those people willingly helped build them imo

random thoughts you're welcome to, thanks for the invite
edit on 6-1-2013 by AussieAmandaC because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 09:15 PM
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Originally posted by ~widowmaker~
reply to post by Xtrozero
 


Well I wouldn't count them out "aliens", but Im pretty sure an advanced civ would not be hear making friends. heh how did that work for the American Indians,Australian Aborigine?, south African blacks, Indians in south America, ect ect. And that was to our own kind. So sad, but I highly doubt they helped make stone buildings if they had ships and tech to teach us metal working ect ect. And although I don't believe in any religion , I have been through religious schools and learned different religions, most of the stories don't sound like a god punishing people, it sounds like another civ F'd us up back to the stone age.


I'm not talking that advance...not more advance than their time, but I don't think we give enough credit where credit is due. Everyone wants to put steel ships in the stone age and I'm talking much more subtle as in wooden/reed type ships, but with navigation capabilities and a lot of time on their hands. This is where you might get one way trips..who would spend years going one direction just to return. I don't see trade routes since ship were not yet big enough to provide that and we would see major towns along the coasts of the trade route for that to happen.

But this is not to suggest that other civilizations did not come to the America's bringing their technology, gods, stories etc. Such as pyramids throughout south America, but not in the north. This tells me that pyramid technology was brought to the south, passing the north completely.



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 09:18 PM
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reply to post by Xtrozero
 


"I don't see trade routes since ship were not yet big enough to provide that and we would see major towns along the coasts of the trade route for that to happen."

drop the water 100-150 feet, youll find your trade routes ^^



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 09:24 PM
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reply to post by JayinAR
 


Hi,
You beat me to the torquetum or tanawa




If you a detailed table of celestial positions from a known benchmark, or a device such as an antikythera mechanism, you can calculate longitude



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 09:47 PM
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reply to post by punkinworks10
 


Yes. The only problem is it wouldn't be exact. It would require very calm waters to do on the open sea, but what is most likely is that they would keep as close watch on the time as they could by sea and then make detailed longitude observations on land whenever they could. There is evidence the Egyptians travelled south through the red sea, through Indonesia, to Australia and beyond out into the greater Pacific. Then we find stories of them even leaving an imprint throughout the Americas. North and South.



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 10:54 PM
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Wow.

This thread took off on it's own. Great stuff. I'll give each of you a reply in the morning.



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 11:14 PM
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reply to post by punkinworks10
 


Yes, the Minoans were notable seafarers, BUT they never broke out of the Med. There's little doubt the Phoenicians inherited knowledge from previous and more ancient cultures, including there own Canaan culture, but the VERY first recorded instance of long range exploration was from the Phoenicians who circumnavigated Africa, or Hannu who reached Punt and Ethiopia in 2700 BC. But this type of sailing didn't require much beyond hearty ships and a willingness to stay out to sea for extended voyages - the technology was still "coast-hugging". Eventually they would develop the means to navigate into the Atlantic, at least as far their coastal colonies.


If you [have] a detailed table of celestial positions from a known benchmark, or a device such as an antikythera mechanism, you can calculate longitude.


That is the crux of this post - when navigating by the stars (or sun/moon/planets) arose it required almanacs loaded with compiled data of positions of navigation stars, tables of dates, tables of determining true north versus magnetic north, in short the type of records not associated with known ancient civilizations. However determining longitude on land wasn't that difficult, even if it was only noted as a 'rule of thumb' by experience travelers along caravans and trade routes. Certainly Sumerians began compiling charts of heavenly bodies and dates. The challenge for them was how to translate such data known for one position to a different position on the globe. This brings us to the Greeks, circa the 3rd century BC, who first proposed a system of latitude and longitude for the globe, AND developed the trigonometry to calculate such. Previous civilizations are lacking records of having developed such mathematics, most never progressed beyond basic geometry. However true marine navigation STILL requires an accurate marine chronograph to be able to calculate the angular distance between a "known benchmark" (a prime meridian) and position, and such a chronograph never existed until invented by the British. Otherwise, to make landfall to determine longitude in the more ancient way still meant hugging coast lines.

In the spirit of this post, we're not talking about sailors hopping aboard a ship or raft and setting off for parts unknown, letting chance dictate where they end up. That might have been the case with those first Polynesians who may have discovered Hawaii more by accident than intent, or to those Indian sailors who were blown across the Indian Ocean by a monsoon only to realize it was a quicker route to Africa - we're talking about developing the science of navigation, something that could result in hard, concrete data to be kept and used by the homeland, to extend your people's reach by trade or conquest of new lands. Certainly the Egyptians developed sea faring far enough along to be accomplished sailors of the Nile and the eastern Med, BUT they never ventured far beyond that. Obviously all the cultures in the Med had a sea trade and mariners, and what they developed worked for them - but none of them had the science to navigate the Atlantic. As I said, the first known Atlantic mariners and navigators were the Phoenicians.

Again, in the spirit of this post, it would be entertaining to consider the tantalizing possibility of earlier advances in navigation than established views, such clues may lurk in certain tablets of math lessons in Babylon, for instance, that suggest they may in fact have recognized the Pythagorean Theorem centuries before Pythagoras lived. (look up the Babylonian "Plimpton 322" clay tablet). We may also consider the Sumerian "beru", corresponding so nicely to the rate of the Earth's rotation - 15° per "beru" in mean solar time.



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 11:32 PM
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This is fantastic Slayer.

The contributions in this thread are second to none.

Indeed, it is readily apparent (to me) that this is not the first time in our history that humanity has had global cohesion and our "lost maritime ventures" are a testament to that.

Thank-you to all for the wonderful information and links.



posted on Jan, 7 2013 @ 12:22 AM
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reply to post by Blackmarketeer
 


I dunno about all that. In order to say that the Egyptians didn't make it to AT LEAST Australia means to simply dismiss lots of evidence that they did. From cultural influence to artifacts to engravings.

Wonder if its possible these people may have had a compass.



posted on Jan, 7 2013 @ 01:26 AM
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reply to post by Blackmarketeer
 

I should clarify myself, by minoan empire I mean more of a minoan trade association.
The minoans were the eastern med distributors of copper and bronze that originated in the western med and as far away as Ireland.
The beaker culture, which has its foundations in Atlantic Spain and Portugal was the western end of this association. They clearly were involved in the trade of western copper into the eastern med, and they also have a connection to the then ancient obsidian trade.
Which is what one point I've been trying to make, is that the routes of trade in the med basin and into the continent are very ancient. Some ten thousand years old others even older. Before the first cities were built in Egypt cattle ,goats sheep, live trees and people were being transported by ship from anatolia to islands in the med and from from Britain to Libya.
I think we are in agreement that the real breakthrough in navigation doesn't occur till ptolymeic Egypt, with erathenes' determination of the earths diameter, and its erathenese who constructs the first torquetum, which is a precursor to the antikythera mechanism.
I agree that carrying a almanac of celestial position to be cumbersome , but with the advent of a mechanical method for such, it become ever so more practical.





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