What's really killing Americans. HINT: It's not guns!

Originally posted by SpearMint
It doesn't matter how far down the list it is, it's a lot of people. Stop trying to downplay people being murdered.

It's fine if the US has a very high gun murder rate as long as it's not the #1 killer? You're comparing intentional homicides with accidents and things we cannot control. I think your attitude towards the issue is disgusting.

edit on 6-1-2013 by SpearMint because: (no reason given)

So I guess the point is should we focus on rifles that only account for less than 400 murders per year?

Originally posted by snarky412

The point is, no death is good, no matter what causes it.

I don't know...I think death will happen no matter what.....

With a world of 7 billion (more people than rats and mice) I think we have done rather well, but we can't stop crazy and stupid people....We can limit EVERYTHING and turn EVERYONE into a bubble boy and STILL the crazy and stupid will find ways to kill themselves and others.

Is it the government's job to extend everyone's life as far as they can at the cost of everyone's freedoms? Or is it the Governments job to provide freedoms so we can live as we want to live?

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by DarknStormy

Originally posted by SpearMint
It doesn't matter how far down the list it is, it's a lot of people. Stop trying to downplay people being murdered

Maybe it is a lot of people but it doesn't change the point, Guns are not the biggest killers in the USA..

Oh, that's fine then, those 12000 or so lives lost were ok. Thanks for clearing that up.

By the way, no one was claiming guns were the biggest killers in the USA, they are however the biggest intentional killers.

I believe the OP's statistics showed that other objects killed more people than guns. I think people are the biggest intentional killers.
Furthermore, I don't think people particularly care whether they were killed by a murderer with a gun or a murderer with a knife or a reckless drunk driver. The fact that they are lost is enough. Any loss of life is terrible. Freedom to drink alcohol means that irresponsible people will abuse it. Freedom to own guns means that irresponsible people will abuse it. I think it makes more sense to ban alcohol (except for medical purposes by qualified professionals) since guns serve more useful purposes (they are used more often in self-defense than in aggression) and kill less people than alcohol.

Originally posted by WP4YT

Originally posted by DestroyDestroyDestroy
Rofl, didn't Canada have like less than 50 gun homicides last year? "HEY LOOK, 12,000 AMERICANS DIED TO GUNS, BUT 600,000 DIED FROM SMOKING!!! GUNS AREN'T THE PROBLEM!"

And yet, out of every 100 Canadians, 30 of them own guns. So you are actually helping the point that guns aren't the problem. People are the problem. Rather than being afraid of guns, we should be looking at the reason why people use guns to kill, and solve those problems. Banning guns is just a band-aid to the problem.

Just the simple fact that there are guns, isn't the problem. Let's instead cure the mental illness that causes people to murder. Whether it is by gun, knife, or any other means. Let's look and fix the real reasons gun deaths in America are greater than other countries.

Originally posted by DestroyDestroyDestroy
You really can't downplay the fact that thousands of Americans die to guns yearly.

But you know what, everyone dies, some sooner than others, so what does it even matter if a few thousand people get killed by guns in America each year? Apparently we value guns more than human life, and so be it, let us deal with the repercussions and the dead children while the rest of the world laughs.

No one is downplaying deaths by guns. All deaths are tragic. What I am downplaying is the death by guns hysteria and fear mongering. Do you value automobiles more than human lives? Because automobiles kill far more than guns!

edit on 6-1-2013 by WP4YT because: (no reason given)

Guns are an instrument that facilitates killing. Furthermore, don't scapegoat the mentally ill; there is a much larger problem at hand and to downplay it by saying, "well those people are just sick in the head!" is to dismiss it entirely. What about second degree murder? Husband comes home to find his wife cheating on him, loses his s***, kills her and her lover. What about those under the influence of drugs, whether they be recreational or prescribed? Pulling a trigger is too easy and too final.

A majority of car related deaths are accidental, unfortunately the same can't be said for guns. Cars are a necessity for most Americans living in suburban areas who need to commute to work each day. Guns, not so much.

Anyways, ~12,000 people dying to guns is absolutely nothing to brag about. Maybe the Canadians are just a more peaceful people, maybe a majority of Americans are death obsessed degenerates, and maybe doing something about guns will result in less gun related deaths, but as I said, we apparently value guns more than human life.

FWIW there is 4 5 or even 6 other countries that recently had the same school shooting scenerious as the usa.A pattern that makes one think.......

Originally posted by SpearMint
It doesn't matter how far down the list it is, it's a lot of people. Stop trying to downplay people being murdered.

It's fine if the US has a very high gun murder rate as long as it's not the #1 killer? You're comparing intentional homicides with accidents and things we cannot control. I think your attitude towards the issue is disgusting.

Where exactly are we downplaying death?? That's not the main point; it's that the anti-gun brigade is going full force ahead on the basis that guns are the bane to society. That every child is in danger of being shot up in school, and that taking guns away will change all that.

Over 150,000 people die each and every day. How many children die from school shootings? Approximately 300 over the course of 22 years. Statistically speaking the argument is a failure. Logically speaking as well. Unless you believe society is better off with the government & criminals having all the weapons?? History shows that always works out well..

Again, nobody is saying that the deaths of innocents is "fine". Even implying that is ludicrous.

reply to post by WP4YT


Thank you for the information in this thread. Your OP has convinced me steps need to be taken to prevent more gun related deaths.

reply to post by SpearMint


So, those thousands of other homicides committed without the use of a gun, they weren't intentional. Nope, only murders with a gun are intentional.

Right.

reply to post by SpearMint


Spearmint, why would you be anti-2nd amendment when were losing other rights as well? Trust me, once we build a new society and evolve we won't need guns. But right now, we need the 2nd amendment more then ever.

Tyranny is coming down on this country like a ton of bricks. If you can't see it, you'll see it when it's too late.

Have you heard of NDAA, NDRP and the extension of the patriot act?

The 2nd Amendment is not just about owning guns, it also gives us the right to form militias.

So fine, if you are a citizen who want's to take away more rights from the people that's fine. But just know, the 2nd Amendment is when of the biggest barriers right now against tyranny.

Like I said, look up NDAA and NDRP. You'll be surprised on what you find.

Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Mao’s China, Pol Pot’s Cambodia, etc, all contained disarmed populations. The guns were gone, and as a result millions upon millions died! Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it!

The right of the people to keep and bear arms is critical to the security of a free state.

The Patriot Acts, the FISA domestic spy bill, the bailouts of corrupt international banks, attempts at CISPA and SOPA, actions like the NDAA authorizing the treatment of U.S. citizens as “enemy combatants” without rights to due process; all paint a picture so clear only a one-celled amoeba (or your average suburban yuppie) would not see it. You and I, and everyone else for that matter, have been designated potential targets of the state.

Feinstein's Gun Control Bill should trigger the next American revolution!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DO NOT GIVE AN INCH ON THE SECOND! Any who would enact or enforce these laws are in violation of their oaths, and are enemies of America and its constitutional rule of law!

Nowhere in the writings of the Founding Fathers do they mention “hunting” as their primary concern. Instead, gun rights are protected in order to ensure that the citizenry remains dominant over any centralized government that turns to corruption.

To sit and pretend that a gun ban is to safe guard children is complete nonsense! It is to further a power grabbing tyranical agenda! How many thousands of children in Iraq and beyond has the US killed? If you trust a system which is for sale to the person willing to spend the most and you expect it to always have your best interests at heart. Then you are a fool! I wonder how many Jews trusted that Germany would always have their best interests at heart?

Assault rifles account for less than 400 deaths per year! What is really going on here? A single armed security guard could have prevented the Lanza massacre! There is only one way to stop a person bent on killing others and himself, and this by direct confrontation.

IT IS TIME FOR ACTION FOLKS!

White House wins fight to keep drone killings of Americans secret
rt.com...

'From my cold, dead hands': Obama task force seeks revolutionary gun reforms
rt.com...

‘US government is not protecting its citizens' civil liberties'
rt.com...

I think that misunderstanding plays a major role in the debate over gun regulation. While there are politicians that vehemently believe in gun control, there are also those that are simply responding to public sentiment which tends to lean towards gun control in times like this. There are those politicians that say "well many in the public are anti-gun ownership and I want their vote so I'm going to speak out against guns too."

By and large the whole idea of gun control is based upon a lack of understanding. There's a lot of hatred going around that no one knows how to cure and instead of figuring out how to fix the root cause of the problem they'd rather take the easy road and remove one of the means by which some people use to vent their hatred. If they are successful in that endeavor they will only find out that the problem still exists and will have found another means by which to present itself.

If you remove guns from the equation you will find that people will only resort to other means to vent their anger. If you want to solve the problem of violence then you'll need to solve the problem of hatred.

"The release of atomic energy has not created a new problem. It has merely made more urgent the necessity of solving an existing one." -Albert Einstein

reply to post by Symbiot


It aint leaning that way at all! Try to buy an AR or some ammo right now! America does not want any new Gun Control laws! For every registered weapon there are ten others unregistered! There is very likely 5 assault riffles for man woman and child in this country right now! New laws only effect the lawful gun owner, friend!

WE THE PEOPLE DO NOT WANT NOR WILL WE RECOGNIZE FEINSTEINS GUN CONTROL BILL! If a state votes to enact Gun legislation then so be it, but the FED can suck it!

This is not a debate it is a call to arms! Where are the militias when you need em?

reply to post by SpearMint


Also, I would like to add Spearmint, do you believe law enforcement officers should be disarmed as well? Or do the Police get extra rights then the citizens?

How about the Military? Should the Military stop selling arms to little brown nations and then blowing the crap out of them later? How about Military Contractors selling arms? Should GE stop selling arms?

I'm not sure what your stance is on this, but it seems to me your stance is anti-gun. But like I said, what about law enforcement, the Military, and Military Contractors?

Here is something for you all to consider here are a few articles relating to gun viloence, since that is the nature of this thread. In just doing a quick 20 minute search through the CDC and another .gov website for gun homocides, I have found in writing that everyone who is anti-gun is missing and not wanting anyone to pay attention to a (conservative number even) 71% of all gun viloence is gang related. Of those low end estimates put it a little above 60% have a FELONY record. While the majority of all homicides (death of a human, not meaning murder), about a little over half (59.76%) are suicides, sad but a different subject altogether. I am just focusing on the criminal homicides.

Lets break this down a little:

According to the CDC here source:

Gun Death Rate 2009 (most current data):

Total: 31,347 Suicides: 18,735 (59.76%) Homicides: 12,612. Now of these 12,612 (conservatory average is 71% is gang related) which gives us 8,954 gang related homicides alone.

Here are a few sites to look at for yourself to see what the CDC and government have to say for yourself.

CDC

Healtfinder.gov

Couple other sites that interesting reads with stats also:

Front Page Mag

Extrano Alley

What we have is a crime problem, more specifically a GANG problem. Most of these weapons they get come from Mexico, and we know the DoJ and BATF's Fast and Furious Program has been shipping our guns south to criminal entities. Close the border, enforce the laws we already have, and get rid of the gangs and then the problem with virtually disappear. This is not a legal gun owner or gun problem it's IS a criminal one.

Grim

reply to post by Donkey_Dean


Now I'm not saying that the american public is leaning towards gun control as a whole, but there are many who tend to demand action on gun control when gun violence is predominant in the media. While the two of us might disagree on which way the american public is leaning in regards to gun control I think we can agree that gun control legislation is no solution to the problem at hand.

"The release of atomic energy has not created a new problem. It has merely made more urgent the necessity of solving an existing one." -Albert Einstein

Translation: Atomic bombs don't kill people, people kill people. A weapon has not created a problem, but only made more urgent the necessity of solving an existing one. The problem lies in why people desire to use the weapon in a nefarious manner.

As long as people hate one another they will find a way to vent that anger. If there are strong gun control laws in place then the angry citizen will only find another means by which to vent his anger upon others. He will illegally obtain a gun or simply use another form of weapon even if that means using his bare hands. Legislating gun control is only a waste of time.

reply to post by Symbiot


While I agree with you gun control is a waste of time in trying to reduce mass shootings and such, that is not the agenda of those pushing it. Sure they may utilize the current state of near hysteria in the MSM over the subject but it is merely pretense.

I do not think we are right around the corner from Hitler/Stalin/et al, but the last few years have seen an accelerated erosion of what the founders thought were rights of the individual. The 2nd Amendment is just the latest albeit a big one. Think about the possibilities once Americans really and truly have no recourse.

Think about it. What avenue does the individual citizen have to change the course of this country? Write a letter? The recipients do not care. Vote? With so few worthy politicians out there, what does it matter. Protest? What on Earth has a protest changed in the last 40 or 50 years? Run for office? Hope you got a few million dollars to help grease the skids. Even the latest uproar over gun control is mostly manufactured. When was the last time those duds in DC hurried up about helping anyone but themselves? These will be laws which have no play in our welfare.

Sorry to digress but I feel this subject needs the appropriate context to discuss it thoroughly.

Originally posted by Symbiot
reply to post by Donkey_Dean

 

Now I'm not saying that the american public is leaning towards gun control as a whole, but there are many who tend to demand action on gun control when gun violence is predominant in the media. While the two of us might disagree on which way the american public is leaning in regards to gun control I think we can agree that gun control legislation is no solution to the problem at hand.

It doesn't matter if 90% of the American Public wanted to ban guns. This isn't a democracy, it's a constitutional republic.

The truth is that the United States of America is a constitutional republic. This is similar to a democracy because our representatives are selected by democratic elections, but ultimately our representatives are required to work within the framework of our constitution. In other words, even if 90% of Americans want something that goes against our founding principles such as gun control, they have no right to call for a violation of constitutional rights.

Our founders did not want a “democracy” for they feared a true democracy was just as dangerous as a monarchy. The founders were highly educated people who were experienced in defending themselves against tyranny. They understood that the constitution could protect the people by limiting the power of anyone to work outside of it much better than a pure system of popularity. A system of checks and balances was set up to help limit corruption of government and also the potential for an “immoral majority” developing within the American People. We have forgotten in this country that we are ultimately ruled by a constitution.

Why is a democracy potentially just as dangerous as a monarchy? Let’s look at something that Benjamin Franklin said because it answers that question more fully and succinctly than I can.

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. -Benjamin Franklin

Even 230+ years ago our founders were perceptive enough to realize that democracy was a dangerous form of government. How so? Because the citizens of a country can become just as corrupt as any government. We have seen evidence of this throughout history. Ask Native Americans and African-Americans if this population can become corrupt.

I think in 2012 we are seeing evidence of what Franklin was trying to tell us. Just because a majority of people may support certain ideas it does not mean that those ideas are just. In simple terms, just because most Americans love our president and voted for him, it does not mean that he has the power to go against our constitutional rights.

Next I’d like to review the text of the second amendment. It is very clear. This is the law of this land. So when Senator Feinstein or President Obama talk about taking your guns, you need to think about something. Are they honoring their sworn oath to uphold the constitution?

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

This is a pretty clear statement. The fact is that it took 232 years for the Supreme Court to even rule on this amendment because it has never been successfully challenged. In 2008 a case of Columbia v. Heller the Supreme Court ruled that a handgun ban in Washington D.C. was unconstitutional. One also has to take this into consideration. The Supreme Court supports your right to own guns. If you want to research this decision further you can start here.

This country was built on the right to bear arms. It was built on the rights of an individual to bear arms, regardless of what his government or neighbor happened to think. This is crystal clear. Ironically the people who voice their opinions against this right have their free speech protected by your guns. Without guns in this country, all other amendments become null and void, simply because “We the People” will lose our power of enforcement.

reply to post by WP4YT


You bring up a point that has been bothering me for some time. In the past I have called the majority of Americans lazy, self centered, or cowardly. However you mentioned corrupt. That is something I have not thought about and it does make sense.

Perhaps corrupt in their complicity. I remember the war protests in 2002/03. They didn't make a damn bit of difference. So as soon as the war in Iraq kicked off, it all grew quiet again as it was no longer fashionable. It is an volunteer force anyway. Those upset by the war had no skin in the game so suffered no loss. Since then we had the bailouts where every American had a ton of skin in the game yet there were no protests. Now the erosion of the Constitution is picking up steam and yet no protests. However, any foreseeable threat to that inertia is to be feared and regulated. To me that definitely sounds like complicity.

People buy the "evil gun" bull because the media always uses the term "gun - man". That way you identify the bad thing or inanimate object with the person wielding it.

If someone kills somebody by running them over, do we refer to them as a "carman"?

How about a "brick"man or "club"man?

People who sign legislation own pens. They are the worst criminals of all.

"Penmen"...

reply to post by WP4YT


No one challenged the last round of bans! This time they seek to make hundreds of millions of legally acquired firearms Title II NFA weapons.

To own an AR or one of the hundreds of others listed will be the same as owning a full auto machinegun. It will also be illegal to manufacture any new weapons making only those guns whose owners come forward and register legal for transfer or possession, and only then with a form 4 and excessive tax stamp etc.. These guns will become so expensive that they will not be within reach for an average citizen!

They seek to do the same as they did with machine guns and other Title II firearms! This is perhaps the biggest power grab in the history of the United States!

Our jails will overflow with what were lawful gun owners, and the masses will stand defenseless with pop guns and firecrackers!

NFA violations carry a $250,000 fine and 10 years in federal penitentiary. There is no such thing as federal probation or parole. If you get ten years for not registering your legally acquired firearm you will serve the full term!

A form 4 also requires the signature of your local Chief Law Enforcement Officer. If he says no then you must get rid of your Title II firearms or face jail time! Possesion will no longer be a right, but rather up to your local CLEO

That sir is NAZI Germany all over again! If the supreme court did not stand up when they took the weapons classified as Title II today, what makes you think they will in this case?

All this to prevent 400 deaths a year? What a load of the stinky stuff! This is a power grab pure and simple!

I am scared friend! I think if we dont stand now we are sunk! I think you best explain the term serfdom to your children!