What's really killing Americans. HINT: It's not guns!

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posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 03:39 AM
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I'm not entirely sure what I am supposed to get from the image unless it is -

Try telling a tobacco smoker that his vice will soon be illegal.

You'll get pretty much the same response as you get now from the other one.

But now that decent honest law abiding folk are starting to feel what prohibition is like maybe we'll see sound resistance. I doubt it. Never bothers anyone that millions are treated as criminals by default, but now that it might affect you personally..

ATS is overflowing with this... lol.. the irony..




posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 03:41 AM
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There is a difference between self inflicted harm and unavoidable harm which of course allows stats to be twisted to whatever agenda you are pursuing.

Bottom line : I live in the UK and we have no fear of guns in almost all areas of the country. These areas where there are guns are no go areas anyway with a..holes running around in gangs. The vast majority of the population does not have a mindset that guns are a solution to a problem which you have over there. NB majority NOT everybody , we still have Rambo's over here!

I am glad I live in a society that does not need guns and I feel sorry for you US folks still living in John Wayne country.



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 03:43 AM
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Originally posted by DarknStormy

Originally posted by SpearMint
Oh, that's fine then, those 12000 or so lives lost were ok. Thanks for clearing that up.


I'm not saying its ok, but going by the list provided there are bigger killers especially the top one which almost beats all the rest put together.


By the way, no one was claiming guns were the biggest killers in the USA, they are however the biggest intentional killers.


So is using your baseball bat to beat someone to a pulp. stabbing someone if you cannot get access to a gun..


But guns and knives are not made and owned by the average person with the intention to kill, that's a gun's sole purpose, to kill. People do not kill people with these methods as much as guns for some very good reasons, like traceability, the likelihood of them or other people fighting back, the getaway and cleanliness. Guns make it easy, if you take away guns you don't see the numbers made up for with other weapons. I know you can't magically take away all guns, but that doesn't mean it's not stupid to promote them.
edit on 6-1-2013 by SpearMint because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 03:49 AM
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reply to post by SpearMint


So? I haven't downplayed anything, I'm saying that regardless of how far down the list it is it's still not ok and it's still an issue. Comparing it to other things, especially lightning and accidents, is stupid. Stop trying to bury it under other things, most of which aren't even intentional deaths.

 


Driving drunk is intentional. As far as the other ones, and some in the list, yes, they are not really comparable to gun murders, but at the same time, guns are not really relevant to violent crime.

So it's apples to oranges all the way around.

It's stupid to bring gun bans into a discussion about violent crimes, as evidence will show you unequivocally that violence still happens in the absence of guns. Either you are discussing responsible gun ownership or you are discussing a completely different topic about violence. In either case, they are two subjects.

The comparison that comes up with gun violence and deaths attributed to other things, is usually just a response to the anti-gun lobby that likes to scare people with the number of gun crimes that happen every year.



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 03:55 AM
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But that's not my point, I'm not talking about disarming or arming the public specifically, I'm just saying how bad this attitude towards it is. It IS a high percentage, population doesn't matter, that's the point of a percentage. In regard to gun control, the US has gone too far with guns, blinded by their "freedom" fallacy and what the constitution says. It's going to get worse either way, it's too late, so it's pointless to argue.
reply to post by SpearMint
 


I take it you're Anti-gun.......


Where I respect your views, please respect those of mine and other posters.

Death is a part of life no matter what the cause.
And right now in our country, gun related deaths are extremely low compared to the millions of people dying by other means.

And there wouldn't be an attitude if the MSM wouldn't spew their BS agenda and distorting the facts trying to create fear, which is being manipulated by TPTB.

And no, I don't own a gun.
But I am for the rights of others.

Much respect~
snarky



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 04:02 AM
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Originally posted by SpearMint
But guns and knives are not made and owned by the average person with the intention to kill, that's a gun's sole purpose, to kill. People do not kill people with these methods as much as guns for some very good reasons, like traceability, the likelihood of them or other people fighting back, the getaway and cleanliness.


I'm sure we could go into many different factors regarding guns and as much as I agree that there is an issue, we have to ask ourselves is it the guns or it is the people getting access to the guns? With the recent shooting we must remember nothing that you said in your last sentence actually applied to that scenario. There was no intention to make the crime clean or get away, the kid just done it and done himself. Does that mean everyone should pay for that crime though? No...


Guns make it easy, if you take away guns you don't see the numbers made up for with other weapons. I know you can't magically take away all guns, but that doesn't mean it's not stupid to promote them.
edit on 6-1-2013 by SpearMint because: (no reason given)


No-one is promoting guns... If we really wanted to find out what the hell is going on, lets break down where the gun issues are occuring. Obviously massacres make up a small % of the shootings. What about gang related? Who is going to walk in and take guns off them guys without getting a cap busted in their butts? With that, unfortunetly its very hard to monitor a psychopath. You don't know when a common person in society is going to turn. It doesn't mean everyone should be treated as insane though..



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 04:03 AM
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reply to post by SpearMint


Guns make it easy, if you take away guns you don't see the numbers made up for with other weapons.

 



Knives are the weapon of choice for criminals in Great Britain due to the fact that handguns are not as readily available as in the United States.


www.examiner.com...


...random attacks do occur such as the senseless, brutal murder of 13-year-old Casey-Lyanne Kearney, who was stabbed to death after suffering a single knife wound to her abdomen at about 1:18 p.m. local time on Tuesday, February 14, 2012, while she was walking through Elmfield Park, Doncaster, in South Yorkshire.



or 2011, the top 10 most peaceful nations on that list include Iceland, New Zealand, Japan, Denmark, the Czech Republic, Austria, Luxembourg, Finland, Canada, and Norway
*

Now, you see Canada on the list for most peaceful nations?


twenty-nine per cent of Canadian homes possess an estimated total of nine million firearms. Other authorities insist that even this figure is too low, and that there is at least twenty million firearms in Canada. The UN reported that Canada ranks third among the developed western countries (behind the United States and Norway) in the civilian ownership of firearms.



You will also see Norway

en.wikipedia.org... which is 10 on the gun capital list. 2 spots above Canada, which almost has as many.

Honduras is way down as number 88 on the gun capital list, yet, they have 86 murders per 100,000. The top spot on the international list. And only 6 guns per 100 residents. Compare to 30+ for the peaceful Norway and Canada.

Violent crime is violent crime. Gun ownership is gun ownership. Don't confuse the two.
edit on 6-1-2013 by boncho because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 04:08 AM
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Actually, regardless of position on the list,

firearm homicides stand out as the most intentional.

As compared to, medical malpractice and other "accidents".

Speaking of which, gun-related murders being the *HIGHEST* in US than any other "developed" nation also highlights the problem with Americans and killing each other intentionally. Thats the problem, murderous Americans!

At the individual level through to corporate & government/military level



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 04:15 AM
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Originally posted by boncho
reply to post by SpearMint


So? I haven't downplayed anything, I'm saying that regardless of how far down the list it is it's still not ok and it's still an issue. Comparing it to other things, especially lightning and accidents, is stupid. Stop trying to bury it under other things, most of which aren't even intentional deaths.

 


Driving drunk is intentional. As far as the other ones, and some in the list, yes, they are not really comparable to gun murders, but at the same time, guns are not really relevant to violent crime.

So it's apples to oranges all the way around.

It's stupid to bring gun bans into a discussion about violent crimes, as evidence will show you unequivocally that violence still happens in the absence of guns. Either you are discussing responsible gun ownership or you are discussing a completely different topic about violence. In either case, they are two subjects.

The comparison that comes up with gun violence and deaths attributed to other things, is usually just a response to the anti-gun lobby that likes to scare people with the number of gun crimes that happen every year.


1. Drink driving is not intentional murder.

2. I'm not promoting gun bans.



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 04:19 AM
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Whether gun-related deaths are intentional or not, the point I'm trying to make is you have an equal or greater chance of dying from anything else, instead of being shot with a gun. All this anti-gun fear mongering is pathetic. And that's the point. They are trying to create fear and panic to fit their agenda, which has nothing to do with keeping "we the people" safe or alive.

For those of us who are not buying into the gun fear mongering, I'll keep living my life the same, not fearing guns and not stepping out into the world every day thinking some lunatic is going to shoot me. Because I know, that unless I'm one of the 1 in 31,800 Americans that will die from gun-related causes (very unlikely) then I have nothing to fear. (read: that statistic right there says that in my town of about 1,900 people, no one is likely to ever die from a gun.)

Thanks!



edit on 6-1-2013 by WP4YT because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 04:22 AM
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yes! we need to BAN guns to create a black market for the cartels to smuggle fully auto Aks and other guns into the country since it would create a demand for any gun the 'gun freaks' can get their hands on! brilliant thinking lads i can see most of you have it figured out with the first thought that came to mind! guns are just a false sense of security! we use a bat to defend our homes!



trying to tell law abiding citizens what they can and cant do because you're afraid you might get shot in public by a crazy person is living in more fear than a person who owns a gun legally for home/personal defense. most of these jokers don't even live in the USA and have an unhealthy obsession with reading their MSM or ATS about shootings in a country they are thousands of miles away from and have no plans on visiting.

i know this is an international community but its ridiculous to see in every gun thread some location: aus or UK person attacking people or starting 5 pages of flame fest just because they "think" or "feel" like we should change our minds because they can just "beat" any argument by saying your gun deaths per 100,000 people is this and ours is this so clearly it works and anything about pharma pills and mental health is irrelevant when every time i see an anti depressant commercial on the tube the side effects are longer than the actual commercial and almost always include suicide or homicidal thoughts. that + bad economy + easy access to guns = bad stuff happening but just taking away guns and ignoring the crazy people isn't going to get rid of the crazy people problem and if they take guns away it'll be tough to get em back so lets fix the crazies first

seriously. i laugh every time i read a post about logic and banning guns when they want to remove them from everyone like they're all mass murderers due to a dozen or 2 crazy people. your stats are pointless you're suggesting the # killed means anything, no, the # of people who went crazy is what matters and that is still very low so it should be able to be fixed faster than removing millions of guns which might just make it worse since it could take so long and if these nuts are planning it might incentivize them to do it sooner. why give up more rights.
edit on 6-1-2013 by oniraug because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 04:25 AM
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Originally posted by WP4YT
Whether gun-related deaths are intentional or not, the point I'm trying to make is you have an equal or greater chance of dying from anything else, instead of being shot with a gun. All this anti-gun fear mongering is pathetic. And that's the point. They are trying to create fear and panic to fit their agenda, which has nothing to do with keeping "we the people" safe or alive.

For those of us who are not buying into the gun fear mongering, I'll keep living my life the same, not fearing guns and not stepping out into the world every day thinking some lunatic is going to shoot me. Because I know, that unless I'm one of the 1 in 31,800 Americans that will die from gun-related causes (very unlikely) then I have nothing to fear. (read: that statistic right there says that in my town of about 1,900 people, no one is likely to ever die from a gun.)

Thanks!



edit on 6-1-2013 by WP4YT because: (no reason given)


So what you're saying is you only care about yourself. I'm sure a lot of people are the same until someone they care about gets killed.



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 04:26 AM
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Originally posted by boncho
reply to post by SpearMint


Guns make it easy, if you take away guns you don't see the numbers made up for with other weapons.

 



Knives are the weapon of choice for criminals in Great Britain due to the fact that handguns are not as readily available as in the United States.


www.examiner.com...


...random attacks do occur such as the senseless, brutal murder of 13-year-old Casey-Lyanne Kearney, who was stabbed to death after suffering a single knife wound to her abdomen at about 1:18 p.m. local time on Tuesday, February 14, 2012, while she was walking through Elmfield Park, Doncaster, in South Yorkshire.



or 2011, the top 10 most peaceful nations on that list include Iceland, New Zealand, Japan, Denmark, the Czech Republic, Austria, Luxembourg, Finland, Canada, and Norway
*

Now, you see Canada on the list for most peaceful nations?


twenty-nine per cent of Canadian homes possess an estimated total of nine million firearms. Other authorities insist that even this figure is too low, and that there is at least twenty million firearms in Canada. The UN reported that Canada ranks third among the developed western countries (behind the United States and Norway) in the civilian ownership of firearms.



You will also see Norway

en.wikipedia.org... which is 10 on the gun capital list. 2 spots above Canada, which almost has as many.

Honduras is way down as number 88 on the gun capital list, yet, they have 86 murders per 100,000. The top spot on the international list. And only 6 guns per 100 residents. Compare to 30+ for the peaceful Norway and Canada.

Violent crime is violent crime. Gun ownership is gun ownership. Don't confuse the two.
edit on 6-1-2013 by boncho because: (no reason given)


All that and you still didn't disprove what I said.



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 04:30 AM
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Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by WP4YT
Whether gun-related deaths are intentional or not, the point I'm trying to make is you have an equal or greater chance of dying from anything else, instead of being shot with a gun. All this anti-gun fear mongering is pathetic. And that's the point. They are trying to create fear and panic to fit their agenda, which has nothing to do with keeping "we the people" safe or alive.

For those of us who are not buying into the gun fear mongering, I'll keep living my life the same, not fearing guns and not stepping out into the world every day thinking some lunatic is going to shoot me. Because I know, that unless I'm one of the 1 in 31,800 Americans that will die from gun-related causes (very unlikely) then I have nothing to fear. (read: that statistic right there says that in my town of about 1,900 people, no one is likely to ever die from a gun.)

Thanks!



edit on 6-1-2013 by WP4YT because: (no reason given)


So what you're saying is you only care about yourself. I'm sure a lot of people are the same until someone they care about gets killed.


Not at all, but I also don't know anyone who has been hurt by a gun. And I know a lot of people.

That's the point. Guns aren't a problem. If they were, then gun-related deaths would be much higher.

I do however know (or known, rather) many people that have been killed by drunk drivers. But how come we don't have a national campaign against drunk drivers right now from the media, the government, and TPTB? Because drunk driving doesn't hurt their agenda for total control and elimination of our freedoms. Guns do.

And my own mother could be killed by a madman with a gun. My views would not change. Because I'm intelligent enough to see it's not the gun that was the problem, it was the madman.
edit on 6-1-2013 by WP4YT because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 04:33 AM
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Originally posted by WP4YT

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by WP4YT
Whether gun-related deaths are intentional or not, the point I'm trying to make is you have an equal or greater chance of dying from anything else, instead of being shot with a gun. All this anti-gun fear mongering is pathetic. And that's the point. They are trying to create fear and panic to fit their agenda, which has nothing to do with keeping "we the people" safe or alive.

For those of us who are not buying into the gun fear mongering, I'll keep living my life the same, not fearing guns and not stepping out into the world every day thinking some lunatic is going to shoot me. Because I know, that unless I'm one of the 1 in 31,800 Americans that will die from gun-related causes (very unlikely) then I have nothing to fear. (read: that statistic right there says that in my town of about 1,900 people, no one is likely to ever die from a gun.)

Thanks!



edit on 6-1-2013 by WP4YT because: (no reason given)


So what you're saying is you only care about yourself. I'm sure a lot of people are the same until someone they care about gets killed.


Not at all, but I also don't know anyone who has been hurt by a gun. And I know a lot of people.

That's the point. Guns aren't a problem. If they were, then gun-related deaths would be much higher.

I do however know (or known, rather) many people that have been killed by drunk drivers. But how come we don't have a national campaign against drunk drivers right now from the media, the government, and TPTB? Because drunk driving doesn't hurt their agenda for total control and elimination of our freedoms. Guns do.

And my own mother could be killed by a madman with a gun. My views would not change. Because I'm intelligent enough to see it's not the gun that was the problem, it was the madman.
edit on 6-1-2013 by WP4YT because: (no reason given)


What a great example of why America has this problem and why it probably won't get better.



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 04:39 AM
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Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by WP4YT

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by WP4YT
Whether gun-related deaths are intentional or not, the point I'm trying to make is you have an equal or greater chance of dying from anything else, instead of being shot with a gun. All this anti-gun fear mongering is pathetic. And that's the point. They are trying to create fear and panic to fit their agenda, which has nothing to do with keeping "we the people" safe or alive.

For those of us who are not buying into the gun fear mongering, I'll keep living my life the same, not fearing guns and not stepping out into the world every day thinking some lunatic is going to shoot me. Because I know, that unless I'm one of the 1 in 31,800 Americans that will die from gun-related causes (very unlikely) then I have nothing to fear. (read: that statistic right there says that in my town of about 1,900 people, no one is likely to ever die from a gun.)

Thanks!



edit on 6-1-2013 by WP4YT because: (no reason given)


So what you're saying is you only care about yourself. I'm sure a lot of people are the same until someone they care about gets killed.


Not at all, but I also don't know anyone who has been hurt by a gun. And I know a lot of people.

That's the point. Guns aren't a problem. If they were, then gun-related deaths would be much higher.

I do however know (or known, rather) many people that have been killed by drunk drivers. But how come we don't have a national campaign against drunk drivers right now from the media, the government, and TPTB? Because drunk driving doesn't hurt their agenda for total control and elimination of our freedoms. Guns do.

And my own mother could be killed by a madman with a gun. My views would not change. Because I'm intelligent enough to see it's not the gun that was the problem, it was the madman.
edit on 6-1-2013 by WP4YT because: (no reason given)


What a great example of why America has this problem and why it probably won't get better.


If you say so. I really don't feel we have a problem. No more of a problem than anything else, since dying from a gun is far less likely than dying from anything else. Statistics don't lie.

Why don't we focus on problems that we really do have, like fixing the unemployment rate, fixing illiteracy rates, etc etc. Oh wait, because that's actually good for TBTB and goes along with their agenda. Dumb, unemployed Americans are far less likely to question the government.



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 04:45 AM
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Originally posted by WP4YT

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by WP4YT

Originally posted by SpearMint

Originally posted by WP4YT
Whether gun-related deaths are intentional or not, the point I'm trying to make is you have an equal or greater chance of dying from anything else, instead of being shot with a gun. All this anti-gun fear mongering is pathetic. And that's the point. They are trying to create fear and panic to fit their agenda, which has nothing to do with keeping "we the people" safe or alive.

For those of us who are not buying into the gun fear mongering, I'll keep living my life the same, not fearing guns and not stepping out into the world every day thinking some lunatic is going to shoot me. Because I know, that unless I'm one of the 1 in 31,800 Americans that will die from gun-related causes (very unlikely) then I have nothing to fear. (read: that statistic right there says that in my town of about 1,900 people, no one is likely to ever die from a gun.)

Thanks!



edit on 6-1-2013 by WP4YT because: (no reason given)


So what you're saying is you only care about yourself. I'm sure a lot of people are the same until someone they care about gets killed.


Not at all, but I also don't know anyone who has been hurt by a gun. And I know a lot of people.

That's the point. Guns aren't a problem. If they were, then gun-related deaths would be much higher.

I do however know (or known, rather) many people that have been killed by drunk drivers. But how come we don't have a national campaign against drunk drivers right now from the media, the government, and TPTB? Because drunk driving doesn't hurt their agenda for total control and elimination of our freedoms. Guns do.

And my own mother could be killed by a madman with a gun. My views would not change. Because I'm intelligent enough to see it's not the gun that was the problem, it was the madman.
edit on 6-1-2013 by WP4YT because: (no reason given)


What a great example of why America has this problem and why it probably won't get better.


If you say so. I really don't feel we have a problem. No more of a problem than anything else, since dying from a gun is far less likely than dying from anything else. Statistics don't lie.

Why don't we focus on problems that we really do have, like fixing the unemployment rate, fixing illiteracy rates, etc etc. Oh wait, because that's actually good for TBTB and goes along with their agenda. Dumb, unemployed Americans are far less likely to question the government.



You're right, statistics don't lie. You have a much higher gun murder rate than any other western, civilized country. You have a problem, of course you don't think you do, you've already shown that you only care about yourself.



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 05:03 AM
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reply to post by SpearMint
 





You're right, statistics don't lie. You have a much higher gun murder rate than any other western, civilized country. You have a problem, of course you don't think you do, you've already shown that you only care about yourself.


Look....the title of this thread is What's really killing Americans. HINT: It's not guns!

So in that respect, the OP is stating facts.

Now we can sit here and argue about which death is more important compared to another type of death but it is just plain silly.
The fact of the matter is in our country, despite what TPTB says, that gun violence is not what it seems.
[with the exception of the gang bangers]

For those of us that have lost loved ones due to car wrecks, cancer, stabbings, Parkinsons' their deaths are just as significant as one caused by a gun and to trivialize a death by it's mean is ignorant to say the least.

We get that you are anti-gun as well as a strong dislike towards America's way and views but do not act like any other death other than by a gun doesn't matter.
Because whether it is caused by an "accident" or not, a person is dead.


edit on 6-1-2013 by snarky412 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 05:10 AM
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Originally posted by snarky412
reply to post by SpearMint
 





You're right, statistics don't lie. You have a much higher gun murder rate than any other western, civilized country. You have a problem, of course you don't think you do, you've already shown that you only care about yourself.


Look....the title of this thread is What's really killing Americans. HINT: It's not guns!

So in that respect, the OP is stating facts.

Now we can sit here and argue about which death is more important compared to another type of death but it is just plain silly.
The fact of the matter is in our country, despite what TPTB says, that gun violence is not what it seems.
[with the exception of the gang bangers]

For those of us that have lost loved ones due to car wrecks, cancer, stabbings, Parkinsons' their deaths are just as significant as one caused by a gun and to trivialize a death by it's mean is ignorant to say the least.

We get that you are anti-gun as well as a strong dislike towards America's way and views but do not act like any other death other than by a gun doesn't matter.
Because whether it is caused by an "accident" or not, a person is dead.


edit on 6-1-2013 by snarky412 because: (no reason given)


I haven't even suggested that other deaths don't matter, but this thread is the other extreme. People know tobacco will probably end up killing them but people don't choose to be murdered, and accidents are arguably not as bad as intentional murders. The OP is saying that these gun deaths aren't as bad as the others, like it's not even a problem. THAT is my only issue here.



posted on Jan, 6 2013 @ 05:20 AM
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Originally posted by SpearMint
reply to post by boncho
 


Well obviously other homicides will outweigh gun homicides if gun homicides rarely happen. The thing you're missing is that those other homicides are not elevated compared to the US, and therefore you don't have a point.


I did, when I pointed out Honduras. 88th on the list of guns per capita, yet, number 1 on the list for homicides.

travel.state.gov...



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