You might be a Spook...and Not Know It !

,,,and so I stand.

This definitely is a setup. If someone you do not know, gets to you in such a way, place and time, and proves that he knows so much about you, then they clearly had reason to speak to you.

If, besides, the conversation ends in a sort of "call me and we'll arrange something" way, it is again clearly proof by facts that they wanted something from you.

Now what is it that they wanted?... I can see a few options.

But firstly, it seems to me however that the work would not be up to security clearance, not at least to the point where national interests or national security would be involved at this level. Were it the case, he'd simply not tell us or not in this way.

I just would like a few more details about the relationship between you and your company to think about it.

Were you in any position allowing you to decide the course of actions (even on a limited scheme) about your own work? Or to have access, manipulate, data that are by essence secret, as part of the work? Industrial espionnage is as bad as military you know... Some "simple" plastic parts factories are more secure that many military bases as to how and why people can enter...

In this case, there may be many people interested in you.
Your company could be willing to test you about your discretion; are you the kind to reveal things to others/competitors/... before they're out?
Other companies could just well do the same. Are you ready to accept an arrangement with them in this matter?
There may be also other companies willing to recruit you directly, and then again it is a way of testing your personality.
As mentioned, it may have been orchestrated by some government in an approach to recruit you as a spook.
Or it may also be that Malaysia (or even others) officials could have thought of you being a spy, and then again they need to test it. This is a very good way to do it.

Your reactions show fairly easily that you are not the spy man. Well at least, I could be wrong but, it seems to me that you have clearly not shown much interest in knowing who approached you and in what purpose. That would be failing, I believe, in a spy's operation. You would have wanted to know more about it. You can't just sit, be the target, then run. So if it were at any time somebody testing you about your activities, you can be nearly sure now that they've given up watching you in this regard.

Now, a bit more about this mysterious character whom he called "your friend" and that you had never seen before. This could be part of the staging, in order to scare you indeed, but this can bring another possibility. The german sounding man according to your account, said that you could call if you wanted, that they could help.

Help about what? In what aspect of your situation then would have you needed help so badly from persons you didn't know?

You know if some people think that you may be a spy, and if in this they watch you, they monitor you, then those people are spies themselves, and that is just obvious. What is perhaps less obvious to many people however, is that if one... faction, let's call them a faction, is watching you, that faction is certainly being watched also by other factions. No one does things that no one else knows. Let's say, just as an example then, that malaysia had thought "hmm that man, he's probably a spy from US" or even "hmm he works in electronics and aviation systems" (took this from your introduction posts, I'm a bad spook you see because I sometimes give away my sources), so if they had thougt so, someone else is there watching them as they're watching you. That someone else may be interested in "helping you" about it.

Now when you say, you could be a spook and not know it, weeeellllllllllll... let me rephrase. You could do some works to help spooks, and not know it. That doesn't make you a spook. And in particular in the kind of work domains you were in.

For probably obvious reasons you're not revealing the exact nature of your job, but it is very likely by what you describe that you have been targetted. And probably, you didn't fit in, didn't match what they feared/hoped/expected to meet. Who, "they"? Well I'm not sure, but yeah you basically ran away (without calling you anything, I'm well convinced you're not that coward), and that is not the attitude of anyone who is ready to receive money against information, ready to steal more than what they're supposed to have there, or ready to play spook any one way or another.

What I'm the most curious about now is, have you ever mentionned this story to your employer then?

What was the reaction of your friend who was so late when you told him this story?

I believe having someone you don't know or remember come up to you in a bar or club and give lots of details about your life plus things you didn't know or remember, leaves you a bit vulnerable. I had a girl in a club do this. The next thing I knew she was making sexual advances toward me after she got me somewhat alone. I was surprised and felt confused. Here was a girl who remembered me from 8 years ago but I could not even remember seeing her before. After getting friendlier with her, she apparently didn't want to scare me with too much information.

She later told me she has known me for 18 years. Not recently, she was just counting down from the time she first saw me 18 years ago. I was amazed. She claimed she remembered the very first time she saw me. If she wasn't female, it would have been creepy like a stalker. I never remembered her from all those years ago.
It makes me wonder every time I meet a girl who asks me if I remember her especially if she acts like she knows me.

reply to post by SpookyVince


WOW... lot's of questions to respond to... I'll try my best.

I have no doubt the whole thing was some kind of set up, but I have no idea why.

Yes, I am a Program Manager so I do make decisions about programmatic direction, but it wasn't like I was working on some kind of defense issues, merely electronic systems.

It would not be surprising for my company to try and test me about what I know. I actually thought that in the moment, but after further consideration I thought that rather extreme given where I was, and what I was doing.

I am also acutely aware of competing companies trying to steal intellectual property, but this method was way more unorthodox than anything I'd ever experienced. Normally those guys just come up, point blank, and offer you a job for more money.

I've thought about Malay involvement since then. The biggest issue there is the Malay government was fairly backward (all due respect), I worked for them. I doubt they could have come up with that level of a ruse back then, especially with foriegn associates. Most of them couldn't even speak English.

Yes, I did go through what they call "penetration testing", but again I wasn't working in a classified sector. I've been there lots of times since then, but not then.

My reactions were exactly as I had been trained; listen, learn and disengage. Call me a coward, but that's what I did.

Did I report my experience to the company? Yes, actually, I did. Did I take it to the Embassy? No, I didn't. Was I debriefed / grilled on it? No, I wasn't, I was only asked a couple of times afterwards if I'd had any problems with similar people...and I hadn't.

Lastly, I didn't "run away". I don't know how that theme came out here, but that's not what happened. I did what I had been trained to do: listen, learn and disengage. I cannot emphasize that enough. I would like to think I am the furthest thing from a coward that anyone will ever meet! I was just following the rules in a VERY unperdictable situation.

I hope this helps.

reply to post by Flyingclaydisk

Thank you for your answers.

I am also acutely aware of competing companies trying to steal intellectual property, but this method was way more unorthodox than anything I'd ever experienced. Normally those guys just come up, point blank, and offer you a job for more money.

And it never worked. Or, has it? Sometimes unorthodox or different methods bring different ends. What I really meant is, not exactly as to how much you'd expect to earn for the same job at their place, but what extra you could earn for allowing them to know what you're doing. You reckon the situation was actually a bit scary. People, when under such threat that you fear for your life or your family's or... what have you, could do many things they wouldn't do, just thinking of protecting themselves.

I've thought about Malay involvement since then. The biggest issue there is the Malay government was fairly backward (all due respect), I worked for them. I doubt they could have come up with that level of a ruse back then, especially with foriegn associates. Most of them couldn't even speak English.

It may not be Malay. It probably wasn't indeed, although you should not doubt that even them have and had, where it can be needed, people with the necessary ruse and english language skills.

My reactions were exactly as I had been trained; listen, learn and disengage. Call me a coward, but that's what I did.

Oh and you're right at it. I've never said or thought that you are any coward of course. What you did is proper and right in your situation. That's perhaps what the test, had it be one, was all about. Making sure that you'd stick to the rules and not give it all out for a few notes.

Did I report my experience to the company? Yes, actually, I did. Did I take it to the Embassy? No, I didn't. Was I debriefed / grilled on it? No, I wasn't, I was only asked a couple of times afterwards if I'd had any problems with similar people...and I hadn't.

Well you can be sure anyway that if anything relevant to national (any nation) security had occured then, you'd have had a contact with more than embassies. So actually and in all logic the most likely is that it was either your company, or another company trying/testing.

Lastly, I didn't "run away". (...) I was just following the rules in a VERY unperdictable situation.

Naaah I never said that really. I could not picture you rocketing out of the bar in a trail of flames, all screaming and crying, could I? Fully understand that. That was a picture word and if you think it is inadequate then, sorry and I'll just speak of getting out of it then

I suppose it is probably too much asking what company it was? Not that their very presence in any country could be such a deep secret, but I'd understand if you would not reveal. Saying who, where, when, what, etc. could just give it away, while it's precisely about protecting it all that we're speaking right now!

[Edited to add:]

but it wasn't like I was working on some kind of defense issues, merely electronic systems.

Defence issues are crowded with electronic systems. From the simplest to the most complex, from overt to covert, from basics to high-tech. The implications of sometimes so simple things can be surprising at times, and many small things piece up together into a much bigger one that no one knows yet.

I remember of a good buddy who once was employed, according to him, by "oh simply a software company", and he was developing optimisation problems code, you know the sort that you have in engineering schools like how to get from A to B using this network of paths having each a different weight, etc. etc.

It turned out, many years after, that his company had been contracted by Mercedes-Benz to produce the very first all integrated navigation systems to be used ever in a luxury car as a standard equipment. Their software, their school software, was to become a world leading edge technology.

On a side note, if YOUR Mercedes had nav problems back then, I can't give you his phone number :p

reply to post by SpookyVince


Didn't mean to imply that 'you' thought I was running away, but that theme has come up here. Rather, I was really trying to explain the situation better.

Funny you should mention the Embassy though, because it wasn't long after this event that my parents received a notice to evacuate all non-essential personnel from Malaysia due to air quality issues. What was odd about that was I'd been sent a similar notice a week before saying we didn't qualify. It was the only letter my parents ever received from the US Embassy.

If you read National Geographic magazine, they had almost a whole issue on the fires in '96 in Indonesia and Malaysia.

Originally posted by Flyingclaydisk
the fires in '96 in Indonesia and Malaysia.

It was in 1997 instead, October to November. But yeah I suppose it makes quite some sense that embassies start mailing their nationals in situations that ... hot!

reply to post by SpookyVince


Yep, you're right...I couldn't remember, it was a while ago. That was near the end of my tour. I came home at the end of '97. 12/7/97 as a matter of fact...never forget that day as long as I live!

I never wanted to get on an airplane in my life more than I wanted to get on that one!!!

I'm an old man now (well, not that old 50 anyway...is that old?), and I know that sounds silly, but it's true!!~!

*gosh, I feel so old now*

I worked as a Program Manager here in Malaysia, why didnt I get funny weird men who knew all about me?

If your stories true sounds like it would have been exciting. I woulda grilled him on how he knew what he knew and what he wanted

Out of curiosity what bar was it?

Gotta be honest to me it smells of BS but ya never know

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


I don't recall the name, but if you're there (in KL) perhaps you might know of it. It was a place that was like a cave, and it seems like you went down from the street level to get into it. The motif was kind of cave-ish with ornamental (probably fake) rock everywhere. It was a pretty cool place actually. I could go grab a map and probably tell you what street it was on ...

I believe it was along Jalan Tun Razak or Jalan Raja right downtown. I'm sorry if you don't believe, I really don't have any reason to lie. Incidentally, I lived at Bayu Ankasa along Jalan Medang Kapas in Bukit Bandaraya (just north of Bangsar).

I suspect this might provide some context for my statements.

I'm jealous. I'm not jealous because they wanted you to be a spy (I'd make an awful spy). I'm jealous because you have a cool enough engineering job that people want you to be a spy. All I'm using my degree for is being a stay at home dad. I guess that means I must identify with the Jamie Lee Curtis character from True Lies.

reply to post by Flyingclaydisk


Wow, very creepy story! As for what I think.....well, my first impression is that you were being watched, probably because of whatever it was you were working on. It's very possible that some unsavory type was watching you, trying to see if they could recruit you, or even threaten you into helping them. Possible that someone from out side spotted this, and sent that fellow to warn you to be careful. The first could have seen this, and been scared off. Still, I would have been pretty freaked out! Not sure if I would have discussed it with anyone or not.

Talking this over with hubby, who has some CI training and skills, and will see where he differs. So far, he mostly agrees. "Pretty close" is what he said. Waiting on a commercial break, so will update when I get more from him regarding his opinions.

The only addition is that it could have been some "lone wolf" agent or analyst, rather than a whole agency, acting in such an overt fashion to scare off the "other friend".

All in all, sounds like you might have had a close call there.

I guess the one thing I didn't really post, or question; the one theme I didn't capture was...could one possibly be set up to go work a job, unknowingly, which might result in some kind of intelligence for another order of intelligence gathering?

That's what if felt like. Just felt like if you did you job, everything was fine; you were doing the right thing. But, in the background, there was a more important purpose. It wasn't that my particular job was so important as much as the role I played, or the people I interacted with. Perhaps that was more important than anything I did.

That was really my question.

Hence: you could be a spook and not really know it.

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Flyingclaydisk

 

Sounds like you were shook down by your companies security dept.

Um. Maybe. Hard to say.

A U.S. Intel. Agency WOULD NEVER do what you just posted. They would watch but not let you know you were being watched.

Hoo, wrong on that one. They do this all the time.

Originally posted by Flyingclaydisk
I guess the one thing I didn't really post, or question; the one theme I didn't capture was...could one possibly be set up to go work a job, unknowingly, which might result in some kind of intelligence for another order of intelligence gathering?

That's what if felt like. Just felt like if you did you job, everything was fine; you were doing the right thing. But, in the background, there was a more important purpose. It wasn't that my particular job was so important as much as the role I played, or the people I interacted with. Perhaps that was more important than anything I did.

That was really my question.

Hence: you could be a spook and not really know it.

edit on 1/8/2013 by Flyingclaydisk because: edit

That's very possible. You could be doing something that seems, in the surface, to be totally innocuous, and yet could be used for other purposes. Of course, without knowing specifics (NOT asking for them, mind you), it's hard to say, but I can understand what you mean. It seems certain something was going on there, considering that strange conversation!

reply to post by Bedlam


They do not tell an employee of a company that is based over seas that an agency is watching for the purpose of determining if that employee maybe either passing or selling High Tech. Secrets to another government or interested parties without waiting to get the whole picture first.

There is no point in blowing a intel op when you do not have all the information...all the participating parties...finding out the whole network...just because an agency has discovered or believes a person maybe passing on info or tech. data.

To blow cover would be stupid.

Split Infinity

Ok. Here's a couple of possibilities.

One possibility, SI is right, it was your company's security department, if they had one, looking to see what was going on with you. Maybe your buddy was into selling info, maybe they thought you were. Hard to say.

Second possibility. Not knowing any details much here, it's hard to say. This happens in the US a lot. In areas where there is a lot of info, the security agencies will sometimes put guys into places you might be prone to discuss sensitive issues with strangers. Among these are bars and gyms. Bars, because you're drinking, gyms might not be so obvious but when you're endorphined up, you do the same sort of thing as when you're drunk. Also, and while I'm not sure of this one being happily married and not one to stray, I would be surprised if some of the hookers in the DC area aren't intel.

Anyway, if you live in places with a lot of poop to spill, Huntsville AL is one, DC another, the areas around Sandia and Los Alamos definitely are, probably the other national labs as well, I guarantee you some of the time, some of the bar patrons are from one intel agency or the other. We called them bar boojums.

And you can spot them by behavior just like what you described. We were in Huntsville for years, there are guys from every TLA there. A lot of the stuff you guys talk about goes on out at Redstone, and there are any number of oddball groups from Space Command to BMDO there. Plus a huge amount of classified stuff. When you rent office space, they'll ask if you want it with or without a SCIF.

So, we used to get off work and occasionally go to one of the area's less upscale bars (Steve's) and talk shop while shooting pool. Pretty much a blue collar place, but hey, at least once a week some clean cut guy remarkably versed about THEL or whatever we were talking about would mosey over and try to be our bestest buddy. Where do you guys work? Are you out at building 2A?

The most obvious guy was out at the Wellness Center gym. It's full of BMDO and Space Commandoes as well as a wad of Redstoners. So we didn't stand out there, since half our projects were running at Redstone and the other ones at SCI or SAIC. Let one or two of us get to talking shop, and here would come the gym boojums. The most obvious one was Ted. Ted would start following you from one machine to the next and eventually to the sauna to see what you were going to talk about. It was ridiculously obvious, sort of like your guy. By the second time he knew our names, for example, although we wouldn't talk to him. So I got a picture of him, filed an incident report and had the security officer look at it, and he about laughed himself blue in the face. Ted was a DIA boojum who'd been trying his best to figure out what we were discussing and had written us up for probably discussing work in public, but he wasn't really able to figure out what because we shut up when he got close.

So, in your case, the first guy was either security trying to get you to spill to see if you would, or was competition trying to get you to spill. The second guy might have just been some other joe at the bar, the "fly now, all is lost" thing was to spook you into thinking you were being followed and calling this guy with the phone number. Alternately, the second guy could be the "bad security guy" in the Kabuki who would actually stalk you around to unnerve you into throwing yourself into the first one's arms for protection. At which point you would, of course, end up telling him what he wanted to know. It's social engineering, physical style.

Of which...I did neither.

But, then again, despite just a low level job op at the time...it actually wasn't my first time around the block.



...I just thought it strange.

reply to post by Flyingclaydisk


It's probably a good thing you didn't go anywhere he could get you alone. Sometimes they try that one to snatch you. If you won't go voluntarily with the guy, the other one starts stalking you, you call the number, he tells you he's someone you'd trust - maybe the company, maybe Agency or State Dept, and you buy into it, meet him somewhere to be safe from the stalker, and it turns out the stalker is just a beater driving you to the hunters, so to speak.