Evidence To Prove We Are Not a Complete Species...

For years I have wondered about the origins of Mankind. For years I have refused to swallow the absolute rubbish which mainstream education and religion shove down our throats from when we are old enough to understand cartoons.

I am no advanced Biologist or even a Doctor but what I am is a fairly logical Man.

Logic tells me that nature / God (with a capital G) in its divine and sometimes perfect ways generally make all life perfect. I mean from flowers opening and actually facing the rising Sun to undersea corals relying on certain strains of bacteria to survive. To me it just seems in nature everything is perfect and everything over time evolves to suite its surroundings. Either be they threats or benifits.

So this brings me to point out one of the biggest Elephants in the room. That being the Human female and the absolute traumatic act known as childbirth. The majority of people will tell me childbirth is so difficult because 200 000 years ago we stood up and our pelvis became smaller due to now being a bipedial species.

If we as a species have been around for around 200 000 years now according to mainstream science and it was then that we started looking the same as we all look today then why have we not evolved to a point where childbirth is not life threatening for our Females? Surely Nature would have evolved along with us when we first stood up and walked on two legs? Considering us standing upright was evolution in the first place right?

I say this because along with standing on two legs came the growth of our brains and thus the size of our heads grew. Further making childbirth a life threatening experience for both Mother and Child. Why did nothing else grow? Or expand? Or evolve?

In saying this lets look at this from a different angle and put our religious goggles on for a second.

Genesis 3:16 ...To the woman he said:" I shall greatly increase the pain for your pregnancy; in birth pangs you will bring forth children, and your craving will be for your husband, and he will dominate you."

So god made childbirth painful to teach Women a lesson for their sins as per the Old Testament. My question then is why did Jesus in the New Testament die on the cross for our sins if god was not going to forgive Women and give them pain free childbirth?

I must admit both the scientific and religious views on this subject do not satisfy me. My personal opinion is that we were created in some lab thousands of years ago for whatever the reason and we are an incomplete species.

What do you guys think?

I think you are only confusing yourself by bringing biblical scripture into your thought process.

You say you're a logical man?

Is it logical for God with a capital G to punish all women for thousands of years because one woman, the FIRST woman, disobeyed Him?

we dont belong here ,we are a fleshy virus thust upon this planet

I sincerely hope we are not a complete species, or I may be forced to conclude that regardless of where we come from, the natural design is utter fecal matter.

reply to post by sconner755

I think you are only confusing yourself by bringing biblical scripture into your thought process.

You say you're a logical man?

Is it logical for God with a capital G to punish all women for thousands of years because one woman, the FIRST woman, disobeyed Him?

All perspectives are being observed in order to achieve a well-rounded assessment in the matter. It's not wise to dismiss any angle based purely on an emotional basis. That, in itself, is illogical.

reply to post by sconner755


Please do not get me wrong. I am not a religious Man but rather a spiritual one. I dont know if I invented this saying but I truly believe I found God (with a capital G) when I lost religion.

God to me sir is nothing more than you and I and the energy which binds us all together.

When I refer to religion or phrases from the scriptures I am merely using that to make a point. Nothing more and nothing less

reply to post by AfterInfinity


"All perspectives are being observed in order to achieve a well-rounded assessment in the matter. It's not wise to dismiss any angle based purely on an emotional basis. That, in itself, is illogical".

Well said sir.

You made an EXCELLENT opening post, ShaunSwindon. (Star and Flag.)

I particularly liked this bit, and I quote:

Originally posted by ShaunSwindon

So god made childbirth painful to teach Women a lesson for their sins as per the Old Testament. My question then is why did Jesus in the New Testament die on the cross for our sins if god was not going to forgive Women and give them pain free childbirth?

Now, to get back to the scientific world:

Have you ever seen how a kangaroo gives birth? It is absolutely amazing.
Keep in mind that kangaroos are also bipedal creatures.

A kangaroo will give birth standing upright, and the small little baby creature will actually crawl (on its own steam) to the mother's pouch.

Here is a video that I quickly searched for, and found on Youtube:

"Newborn Baby Grey Kangaroo - Attenborough - Life of Mammals - BBC"



This is what Evolution did for the kangaroo.

I can now appreciate that your OP makes some excellent points.

The pains of childbirth is an evolutionary trade off. It allows for us to have big brains and develop until the last possible second before our heads are to big to fit through the birth canal.

And because our heads are so big and heavy when we are born, we are heavily reliant on our parents, mostly the mother, to care for us. This encourages the group mentality.


It's a bit more complicated, but that's the gist of things. I think you put too much emphasis on the pain aspect of it. As a child it hurts when your teeth come in. Puberty and the resulting growth spurts can hurt like all get out for some people.
Pain isn't always a bad thing, it's as much a part of our evolution as our thumbs

Originally posted by haven123
we dont belong here ,we are a fleshy virus thust upon this planet

Absolute dribble. We're actually here for a reason. This planet is both a prison and a school. That makes us not the virus but the main player on the stage, with everything arranged around us. And we;re all cosmic citizens.

Also this is actually more of a hologram than anything else. So its a kind of simulated prison/school at that.

Time to wake up.

As to the species thing. Sleeper said that the human body is designed as a pain machine, so we're supposed to overcome harming others and past the bloodshed and murder conducted on this planet. Has nothing to do with women giving birth or Eve falling, except for the metaphor involved in that story. Once upon a time in Heaven we were happy, but then the birds got kicked out or left the nests to prove themselves, start peddling the bikes, and hence its been kind of hard on many, for they ended up taking the long way home through alot of bad behavior.

reply to post by ShaunSwindon


Okay...

First... We are not a complete, we will never be, we will always be a transitional species. Unless something happens to our DNA that we are doomed not to change/or reach a perfect state.

200,000 years is not a lot of time.... even the slightest change take millions of years, i would say we changed a lot since 200,000 years.

Natural childbirth is still possible, in nature, offspring dies during birth, and some case endanger the mother... its normal in nature. Many areas in Africa is still given birth thru natural means. We value and protect life so much that a dead infant or a mother is shocking to our era... where it would be normal in nature. about 300-400 years ago, its normal to have multiple miscarriage and dead birth in a single family, that is one of the reason why family have large number of kids back in the days... because people barely lived to 50yrs of age if they were lucky to be born.... maybe our evolution is to expand our mind and create tools to make our hardships easier.

Please don't even compare religious doctrine(1 of many) to science and say both are not satisfactory.

When i read you bible quotes, i smelled men manipulation in there... i don't even take those seriously. Its like in 3000yrs, people take our government laws as gods word "ancient people use t follow this Ga-ver-n-ment, these rules are sacred"...

reply to post by ShaunSwindon


I strongly suggest that you go away and rethink everything about your post. It's... offensive to claim that the pain of childbirth is some kind of punishment for women.

reply to post by ShaunSwindon


Hello, I believe you could look up an Australian biologist named Jeremy Griffith, and find some deeper insights into what your saying.

I agree we are not a complete species, but simply because we do not understand what it is to be human?

The most fundamental questions are not being honestly, simply or truthfully asked.

I'd like to think we can agree that each person no matter what their lot can reach for the stars knowing their potential may well be limitless.

Our greatest obstacle is our own psychosis, to find a simple understanding and meaning to the awesome contradictions of being a human.

Where is science on the issue of the human condition?

reply to post by Unity_99


So one big giant hunger games?

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg
reply to post by ShaunSwindon

 

I strongly suggest that you go away and rethink everything about your post. It's... offensive to claim that the pain of childbirth is some kind of punishment for women.

Did you actually read the OP word for word? Where did he say he thought it was a good thing?

reply to post by Klassified


He didn't say that it was a good thing. He said instead that: "So god made childbirth painful to teach Women a lesson for their sins as per the Old Testament. My question then is why did Jesus in the New Testament die on the cross for our sins if god was not going to forgive Women and give them pain free childbirth?"

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg
reply to post by Klassified

 

He didn't say that it was a good thing. He said instead that: "So god made childbirth painful to teach Women a lesson for their sins as per the Old Testament. My question then is why did Jesus in the New Testament die on the cross for our sins if god was not going to forgive Women and give them pain free childbirth?"

If you knew that, why are you telling the OP this:

I strongly suggest that you go away and rethink everything about your post. It's... offensive to claim that the pain of childbirth is some kind of punishment for women.

He was just paraphrasing the bible, he didn't come up with it himself, and he certainly didn't say he agreed with it. It was an illustration to help make the point of his OP. If you're offended, be offended at the source, not the OP. I don't see where he needs to rethink anything. I think he was quite clear as to what he was talking about.

Have a great new year.

Originally posted by ShaunSwindon
To me it just seems in nature everything is perfect and everything over time evolves to suite its surroundings. Either be they threats or benifits.

Nothing is perfect. I could name a few species that die instantly after giving birth, the salmon being one. Google can help you with the rest.

Originally posted by ShaunSwindon
If we as a species have been around for around 200 000 years now according to mainstream science and it was then that we started looking the same as we all look today then why have we not evolved to a point where childbirth is not life threatening for our Females? Surely Nature would have evolved along with us when we first stood up and walked on two legs? Considering us standing upright was evolution in the first place right?

I say this because along with standing on two legs came the growth of our brains and thus the size of our heads grew. Further making childbirth a life threatening experience for both Mother and Child. Why did nothing else grow? Or expand? Or evolve?

Forget the last 200,000 years and look at your recorded history to date and tell me, do you not think we have evolved? Our life span not so long ago (say 1 thousand years for arguments sake) used to be maybe 30, 35 years of age. This age gave us the opportunity to pop out a few kids of our own before passing away. We were given the opportunity to perform our sole purpose - reproduction.

From then till now we have seen agricultural advances which have pushed the average life span out even further. We have seen medical advances which again have been nothing short of miraculous in our quest to stay alive which again, pushes our average life span out even further.

Childbirth is never going to be easy naturally as nature keeps reminding us everyday, and not just with human beings but with numerous other species. Our advantage however is that as we evolve and our advances in medicine help us along the way, WE can make childbirth safer and easier for both mother and child.

THAT is evolution.

Adapt or die

Originally posted by AngryCymraeg
reply to post by ShaunSwindon

 

I strongly suggest that you go away and rethink everything about your post. It's... offensive to claim that the pain of childbirth is some kind of punishment for women.

I agree... I believe that God chose women to bare children as we are tough cookies. Can you imagine a man in labour? Lol. Their pain tolerance just isn't as high as women's. when I think of a man in labour it remains me of that NyQuil commercial where the guy is in bed with the flu... "Pam, Pam!... Can you call my mom?" Lol.

But back on topic... If humans have only been on earth for a mere 200 000 years, that isn't much time. Dinosaurs were on earth for millions of years... Personally, I think we've evolved a lot since the beginning, and can you imagine how much more in a million years from now?

reply to post by dorkfish87


Unfortunately it is you who has focussed on the pain aspect of childbirth. A mere 70 years ago the chances of a Woman or baby surviving childbirth here in South Africa was 50%. Only because of our modern medicine and technology are we able to stabilize that shocking percentage

Why would nature create a species if we have a 50% chance to die the moment we exit the womb?