Guns violate our inalienable rights, rather than protect them

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness

When I point a gun at you, what do you lose?

When gunplay occurs, what usually ends up getting lost?

The psychological effect of killing a man(in defense), what right does that infringe?

Anti-abortion activists try to pull the same stunt you're trying to pull with the preamble.

Aint gonna work.

Originally posted by DaTroof
The psychological effect of killing a man(in defense), what right does that infringe?

None if the gun was used for self defense. "Your rights stop where mine begin" as they say.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
Anti-abortion activists try to pull the same stunt you're trying to pull with the preamble.

Aint gonna work.

The problem with that debate is the primary issue as to when an American is an American. My opinion is when the umbilical cord is removed, but that's a completely separate issue. Nice deflection though.

Yes you are allowed the right to life, but when your life threatens mine I am allowed to use force to defend my inalienable rights. Firearms are not exclusive to what you claim as an argument against these rights. You could remove gun from that statement and insert any other weapon and your argument would be the same.

Originally posted by forgetmenot

Originally posted by DaTroof
The psychological effect of killing a man(in defense), what right does that infringe?

None if the gun was used for self defense.

"Your rights stop where mine begin"

edit on 4-1-2013 by forgetmenot because: (no reason given)

I know someone who has killed a man in self-defense. Do you? He tells me about his inner struggles he faces, and it's not something you just shrug off.

Originally posted by DaTroof

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness

When I point a gun at you, what do you lose?

When gunplay occurs, what usually ends up getting lost?

The psychological effect of killing a man(in defense), what right does that infringe?

If you are physically assaulting me or a beloved of mine, then how else are we suppose to protect our 'Life, Liberty and pursuit of Happiness?'

Committing violent crimes against others takes away their rights, not the legal and responsible ownership of a gun. Why do you believe that self defense is wrong?

I have been a gun owner since the time I was 7 (that's when I got my first BB gun, and had already shot a .22 before that time.) Guess how many peoples rights I have taken away (or even threatened) with my guns? Zero.

It's thinking and 'logic' like yours that is a threat to our rights.

Peace.

Originally posted by DaTroof
I know someone who has killed a man in self-defense. Do you? He tells me about his inner struggles he faces, and it's not something you just shrug off.

So what? It sounds like a personal issue for him, he should seek some counseling. His inner struggles have nothing to do with it. Since when do we have the right to not be emotionally disturbed by actions we took under our own free will?

The "I know/ have seen X. Do/have you?" is a very poor argument. You're making a sweeping generalization based on the emotions of one person. You have to do better than that.

Originally posted by DaTroof

Originally posted by forgetmenot

Originally posted by DaTroof
The psychological effect of killing a man(in defense), what right does that infringe?

None if the gun was used for self defense.

"Your rights stop where mine begin"

edit on 4-1-2013 by forgetmenot because: (no reason given)

I know someone who has killed a man in self-defense. Do you? He tells me about his inner struggles he faces, and it's not something you just shrug off.

Who in the world is saying that there is no psychological effects from killing someone? I don't think people are going to argue with you on this...

The fact your buddy is ALIVE to have psychological struggles would be a testament to the value of self-defense even if it does mean taking a life.

You know what else you don't just shrug off? Death...your buddy may feel some remorse but I bet you somewhere inside is appreciative and thankful hes alive...

What is your angle anyway? Are you trying to make obvious statements that cannot be argued to paint people in some kind of corner to agree that guns=bad??

I think most around here are too smart for that crap...

I would rather no one be packing lethal firearms, however then they must be allowed other methods. Here in Canada, you're not allowed MACE even, you get 7-8 year sentences for macing the person raping you, for being in possession of MACE.

Back to firearms, I don't believe in personally packing them around. But I do believe in having the means to stop unjust militia and police action by the STATE, and so, can't agree with this thread.

BECAUSE THIS FOURTH REICHT MUST GO DOWN!

Originally posted by DaTroof

Originally posted by forgetmenot

Originally posted by DaTroof
The psychological effect of killing a man(in defense), what right does that infringe?

None if the gun was used for self defense.

"Your rights stop where mine begin"

edit on 4-1-2013 by forgetmenot because: (no reason given)

I know someone who has killed a man in self-defense. Do you? He tells me about his inner struggles he faces, and it's not something you just shrug off.

I would have no inner struggles killing a man in self-defense.

What is the "inner struggle?"

Is some hooligan's life more valuable than mine? Hell no.

We're all going to die anyway. If some dumbass tries to hurt somebody, they are jumping to the front of the line by their own choice, not mine.

Originally posted by DaTroof

Originally posted by forgetmenot

Originally posted by DaTroof
The psychological effect of killing a man(in defense), what right does that infringe?

None if the gun was used for self defense.

"Your rights stop where mine begin"

edit on 4-1-2013 by forgetmenot because: (no reason given)

I know someone who has killed a man in self-defense. Do you? He tells me about his inner struggles he faces, and it's not something you just shrug off.

No one (that I know of) is promoting legal gun ownership in the hopes that one day they will get to kill someone. No one wants to do that. (Actually, the few people I know who WANTED to kill someone ended up in the military...but that's a different discussion.)

What kind of inner struggles would your friend have if he had not defended himself? Probably none. Because he would be dead. And you'd be left wishing that there had been a way to keep him alive.

I saw a reference to abortion earlier, so i'll go ahead and add this in:
Out of all the people I know who have had an abortion (and it is a few) NONE of them are 'happy' with their decision. More than half wish they could go back and change it. They deal with guilt and regret and etc, etc. Does this mean I think abortion should be illegal? No. It means that we, as a society, need to address larger issues. Same with gun control.
Look at the amount of child abuse cases in the World every year. (37 confirmed child abuse cases here in Georgia, US every single day.) 1 in 10 people in the US are on anti-depressants and other mind/body/chemical altering drugs. These drugs are known to incite violent, dangerous and irrational behavior. Yet Big Pharma is one of the top 3 biggest Lobbyists every single year to keep these dangerous drugs legal.

And you still think that 'gun ownership' is the cause of these violent occurrences???

Average response time of a 911 call: 23 minutes.
Average response time of an armed civilian: less than one minute.

If you don't trust yourself to protect yourself, who DO you trust?

reply to post by DaTroof

I know someone who has killed a man in self-defense. Do you? He tells me about his inner struggles he faces, and it's not something you just shrug off.

At least he is alive to experience that “inner struggle”.

Gun ownership is the key to all of our other “rights” because without guns we are powerless against the whims of the elites in government. If you don't want a gun then don't buy one but don't try and dictate what I can or cannot do. Thank you!

You're assuming gun owners are going around pointing guns at everyone. What rights does a gun sitting on someone's hip violate?

"God created men, Colonel Colt made them equal"
"Some men are big, some men are small, but Sam Colt made them all equal"
"God made some men big and others small, but Samuel Colt made them equal"
"God created all men, but Sam Colt made them equal"
"Abe Lincoln may have freed all men, but Sam Colt made them equal"

I'll tell this story again. An elderly lady in WV had someone break into her house with bad intentions. She ended up shooting the man 6 times with her 12g shotgun killing him. She was taken to court for murder. The prosecuting attorney asked her why she shot the man 6 times. Her reply was "That was all the shells I had." She went back home a free woman and didn't feel one bit bad about what she had to do to protect herself.

This part of the OP's gun debate is a complete failure and in my opinion complete nonsense. Try another approach, you might do better than this one but it's very doubtful.

Pladuim

reply to post by eleven44


I commend you for your years of responsible ownership. And there are many like you who have never and will never point their gun at another human being. I understand wholeheartedly why those who haven't done anything wrong feel as though they're being punished somehow. I want you to know that I'm not entirely against the idea of self-defense. I'm against those means being fatal. We need to set our phasers to stun, so to speak.

The men who penned those words also wrote the 2nd Amendment.

They, unlike you, understood how natural law and natural rights work.

Your anti-gun crusade is becoming ridiculous.

Originally posted by Pladuim
"God created men, Colonel Colt made them equal"
"Some men are big, some men are small, but Sam Colt made them all equal"
"God made some men big and others small, but Samuel Colt made them equal"
"God created all men, but Sam Colt made them equal"
"Abe Lincoln may have freed all men, but Sam Colt made them equal"

I'll tell this story again. An elderly lady in WV had someone break into her house with bad intentions. She ended up shooting the man 6 times with her 12g shotgun killing him. She was taken to court for murder. The prosecuting attorney asked her why she shot the man 6 times. Her reply was "That was all the shells I had." She went back home a free woman and didn't feel one bit bad about what she had to do to protect herself.

This part of the OP's gun debate is a complete failure and in my opinion complete nonsense. Try another approach, you might do better than this one but it's very doubtful.

Pladuim

Try another approach... Hrm. I'll start looking for bumper sticker slogans and untrue stories, and then I'll have a post you'll enjoy.

All men are born equal, Samuel Colt made a fortune by forcing them all to buy guns.

I'll just skip the fake story, since yours was more entertaining.

reply to post by DaTroof


So, when someone points a gun on me and I'm defenseless, what do you think happens? I'm probably killed. Now, if you saw me and even thought I was carrying a concealed weapon you'd think twice. Ever hear of the old term "M.A.D."? It's from the cold war, and is what kept America safe from a nuclear holocaust. Basically it meant that if Russia sent nukes, America would to the same assuring mutually assured destruction. (M.utually A.ssured D.estruction)

The only way to stop gun violence is to kill the criminals who use them. Yes, I mean execution. Incarcerate them and then gas/electrify/whatever them. Because as it stands, gun violence will never go away. Even if you make guns illegal, do you honestly think there would be no gun violence? Isn't coc aine illegal too? Yet, thousands if not hundreds of thousands of people use this drug daily.

I made this dead simple to understand, because a lot of people on ATS just don't get it. They live in a la-la land with rose tinted glasses. Obviously this post won't change anyone's mind but it'll show the sheer stupidity of the thought processes of these individuals.

Originally posted by DaTroof
I know someone who has killed a man in self-defense. Do you? He tells me about his inner struggles he faces, and it's not something you just shrug off.

I do too, my father. And you're right. It's not something you just "shrug off". You'd be a horrible person for just thinking, "well meh". It shows that this "gun toting maniac" of yours has a conscience and that he used it when necessary.

And in the end, if he was with someone those lives are potentially saved. He's able to go on living even with his conscience because he did what was right. And ask yourself this, if he didn't stop the lunatic who else might have died as an outcome of that lunatics actions? For all you know, your friend may have stopped this idiot from killing countless others.

Originally posted by MJZoo
You're assuming gun owners are going around pointing guns at everyone. What rights does a gun sitting on someone's hip violate?

Sign this document, please.

*sets gun on table*

SIGN IT!


See, it doesn't even need to be pointed at you, just present to enact coercion.