Girl 10 dies from falling bullet on New Years Eve

Originally posted by CB328

Why do you think you have any right or moral authority even to keep me from defending myself with a gun?

Society has the right because guns are dangerous to society.

Yes, you are correct. Society has the right to repeal the 2nd Amendment.

Good luck with that.

Also, keep in mind that in my country, the US, the Constitution was created to preserve individual rights. Here the individual is valued more than "society."

Who is this society you speak of?

reply to post by Quauhtli


And once again

While you have guns for the POSSIBILITY you may need them against the gov or whatever else it is your scared of
having them everywhere gives you a CERTAINTY that they will be used by idiots to kill innocent people

reply to post by Murgatroid

Totally agree... FACTS... They seem to have NO influence at all on those who have been brainwashed.. The thing that AMAZES me about this more than anything else: The fact that many are so COMPLETELY out of touch with reality. It almost seems as if they have NO interest in facts whatsoever. Just as if they had been brainwashed by some bizarre cult or something... Apparently Frank Zappa was right:

Show me one CIVILISED country that has had a significant increase in gun crime right after a ban and Ill agree.

People quote Australia all the time, Yeah we had a 6% increase in gun deaths since the ban, that equals about 3 extra killings a year and its not civilians who make up those numbers its crims killing crims.

England is the other one they love to quote, look at who is commiting these (mainly knife) crimes and it says alot.
Its mainly immigrants or first generation Brits who are in gangs and are knifing other gang members, not the general public.

And since no other country has ever come even close to having as many guns or gun owning households as the US its not even a decent comparison.
Even before the gun bans in OZ or the UK very few people outside of rural areas had guns.

This argument is completely bogus

reply to post by sconner755

Think on this. If guns are banned then the good and responsible gun owners won't have guns. The bad and irresponsible criminals will still have them. Let's say the government passes a law and requires everybody to turn in their guns. Do you think the bad guys are going to turn in their guns? It's idiotic. What we'll be left with are cities filled with hoodlums carrying their 9 mm's everywhere. Like most intellectual social engineering exercises, your solution only would exacerbate the problem you're attempting to solve.

LMFAO

Hoodlums are already carrying 9mm according to all of you, many of you use it as a justification for owning guns in the first place.

I wonder how many school children are gonna be able to take these guns away from the hoodlums to use on classmates if they couldnt get them legally online or from their parents cupboards?

reply to post by sconner755

Also, keep in mind that in my country, the US, the Constitution was created to preserve individual rights. Here the individual is valued more than "society." Who is this society you speak of?

And we have a winner

You live in a selfish society, the thing about being selfish is its self destructive. Humans went past apes and developed civilisation due to cooperation and caring about our tribe or extended families, nations whatever.

For those who say we advanced because of warfare, no we didnt!!!!
Technology advanced because of warfare not humanity.

As long as you selfish gun lovers have your guns and feel safe in your little enclosed castles you dont give a toss about anyone else.

Once again I sincerely hope no one you know or love is gunned down because some crazy had easy access to a gun

I know the people around here will probably get all huffy about this but…..
There is one thing that gets me about the response the government has to people shooting up in the air.

They tell them to not do it, people do it any way.
Someone dies from a falling bullet.
They tell them to not do it, people do it any way.
Someone dies from a falling bullet.
……………..
…………….
……….
On and on.

It should dawn on them sooner or later that people won’t listen. They should just accept the fact that people are going to shoot up in the air, so their time would be better spent on trying to tell those people how to do it in a way that won’t get anyone killed.

They employ that strategy on people having promiscuous sex. They know they are not going to make them stop doing it. They just tell you that if you do “do it” that you wear protection.

I think the same strategy will work on people shooting up in the air. We don’t want you doing it, but if you do, do it in a way that is relatively safe.

People reading this are probably screaming “How can you shoot up in the air safely?” The answer is pretty simple. Use a gun and cartridge that is designed to shoot into the air without hurting people on the ground.

If you are going to do it, use a shotgun with #6 to #12 bird shot. That way, the shot that falls back to the ground will be harmless to anything. The returning shot will harmlessly bounce off of what ever it hits while falling at it’s freefall speed. It will sound about like sleet bouncing off the windows and roof. That is why you can safely skeet shoot, and bird hunt in populated areas without hurting anyone. Bird hunting requires you to shoot into the air at the birds as they fly over.

So, If the government had a coherent response, they would have an education campaign for people to do it safely when they do something like shoot in the air, just like they tell people to do it safely with sex.

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
reply to post by sconner755

 

Also, keep in mind that in my country, the US, the Constitution was created to preserve individual rights. Here the individual is valued more than "society." Who is this society you speak of?

And we have a winner

You live in a selfish society, the thing about being selfish is its self destructive. Humans went past apes and developed civilisation due to cooperation and caring about our tribe or extended families, nations whatever.

For those who say we advanced because of warfare, no we didnt!!!!
Technology advanced because of warfare not humanity.

As long as you selfish gun lovers have your guns and feel safe in your little enclosed castles you dont give a toss about anyone else.

Once again I sincerely hope no one you know or love is gunned down because some crazy had easy access to a gun

Self-destructive?

You're wrong. The U.S. has been the most productive country in the world for a long time.

Selfish?

You're wrong again. The US was directly responsible for the unprecedented peace and prosperity the entire planet has enjoyed since WW II. The US is also largely responsible for the technological innovations in every industry that the world has seen over the last decades.

The US also leads the world in the money given to charitable causes.

You can bash the US all you want. It will just amplify your already ignorant arguments.

And by the way, this story about the mother shooting the intruder totally blows out every one of your inane arguments.

The point that you've been struggling so hard to make for days now is now officially an epic fail.

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff

Sadly no I didnt, guns and gun deaths are just a part of your culture, one all you gun lovers seem to accept as par for the course

My question was mostly rhetorical. The point I was making is this sudden surge in anti-gun threads --- spurned by the events at Sandy Hook --- is shallow & redundant. You're doing the same thing the media does; use an isolated tragedy to incite an emotional response. "Oh look what the guns did. Ban them. And anyone who's pro-gun is an irresponsible mass-murder enabler". To paraphrase that is.

P.S I don't own any firearms, and personally I don't like them. However I know people who do; and I respect them as responsible, law-abiding individuals. Guns just part of the culture? Yes, that's exactly the case. Guns exist. Telling every gun owner that they're not allowed to own firearms because it "prevents children from shooting up schools" is utter nonsense.

Every country has hardcore crims with guns but they are hardly ever used on civilians, yes it happens but not as often as you all seem to think it would. Using guns is bad for business as it attracts police, think about it.
You wont stop criminals getting guns but you can stop schoolchildren getting them

Hardly ever? So you're telling me the majority of gun-related homicides are not a result of criminal activity? I.e beef between gangs, members of gangs, robbers, cold-blooded killers, etc? I forgot, all those gun deaths are caused by school children & the like...

By the way, tell that to the citizens of Mexico, and even those located in areas near the border. You would be astounded by how many civilians are tortured & murdered by these criminals. Taking away guns from those trying to live peace is not going to make the situation any better; it'll only prompt a quicker takeover by the power-hungry.

If you want an example of how firearms can be used to deter the rule of criminals, take a look at the Mormon colonies in northern Mexico and their war against local cartels.

Absolutely pathetic and sickening you would use that in anyway in this thread

You all see some conspiracy to take away your guns I actually think the opposite, who makes the guns? who makes money from all of you buying guns? The conspiracy is to make you all so scared that you think you need them

What's "pathetic and sickening" is you using this incident of a child being hit by a falling bullet as a doorway to attack responsible gun owners.

As for conspiracies, you act as if they don't exist. You act as if removing guns from society is going to solve big problems.... Well it's not. It's not about the guns, but who uses them. And if you're looking for the shining example of where most gun-related deaths come from, look no further than the war profiteers, mercenaries, gangs/cartels, foreign government militias, brainwashed soldiers, and every other sort that is NOT a non-violent, responsible gun owner. Perhaps you can figure out a way to take away all firearms from everyone at the same time?

Anyone with common sense would be anti gun anyway.
The fact none of you come out and say you dont like them but feel they are a necessity is very telling. You love your guns and wouldnt give them up even if you knew youd never need it to fight crime or the gov

The fact you have to use straw man arguments to make a point is very telling. Many of us, including me, don't like firearms. For multiple reasons. So much death and suffering has been caused by the use of them. At the same time, if you take away the peoples ability to defend themselves with a basic level of technology -- the same type that is easily accessed by any criminal --- you're making a horrible mistake. Using children as a platform for your arguments doesn't male it a rational one.

Lastly, your argument would make more sense if we existed in a perfect society, a utopian one. One not under the shadow of impending war, tyranny, criminal insanity, & such. The U.S gun-per-capita ranking is on a level high above any other country in the world. So comparing our deaths by guns to countries with an comparably miniscule gun-per-capita isn't logical. Anyway, I hope someday things change.. I really do.

Shooting the Air happens a lot in foreign countries, how many deaths are caused by these knuckleheads?

reply to post by IkNOwSTuff


gotcha on that one....you posted "because some crazy had easy access to a gun......" now we're gonna make you tell us how to make it not so easy for a crazy to get a gun......do you see that point?....cool

I hate how we use dead kids to prove our points.

reply to post by sconner755

Self-destructive?
You're wrong. The U.S. has been the most productive country in the world for a long time.

Really

How exactly can you justify that statement?

You're wrong again. The US was directly responsible for the unprecedented peace and prosperity the entire planet has enjoyed since WW II. The US is also largely responsible for the technological innovations in every industry that the world has seen over the last decades.

Again, Really

How are you gonna justify this one? Most people (even your fellow gun lovers) would say the opposite.
The US Gov has been the biggest killer and warmongering nation in history apart from maybe the mongols.
And as for largely responsible for the tech innovations, yeah sure

Thats just say for a minute both of your above statements are true, how does having an overarmed populace contribute to these things?
People in Korea or Vietnam lived in safety because your grand daddy was able to own a gun?

Some physicist at Harvard came up with a new theory cause you have an AK under your bed?

The US also leads the world in the money given to charitable causes.

LOL OK, this is because you all have guns how exactly?
The US is also in more debt than any other nation

You can bash the US all you want. It will just amplify your already ignorant arguments.

I never once bashed the US, I have bashed outdated gun laws and gun loving idiots, and not even just US ones

And by the way, this story about the mother shooting the intruder totally blows out every one of your inane arguments. The point that you've been struggling so hard to make for days now is now officially an epic fail.

Ummmmmm.....

OK......

Sounds like he was there to rob the house. Im sure if it was Sexual assault he been charged with that it would have been in the article.
Sounds to me like if she had of screamed out through the door "whos there" he would have moved on to another house. I love the way the article says "he found her and her children" like he was looking for them.

In most 99% of cases if a burglar knows someone is home they will flee, if she had of screamed out go away Im armed he would have fled.
This does nothing to make me think guns are necessary

The point that you've been struggling so hard to make for days now is now officially an epic fail.

My point is guns kill people and guns everywhere and easily accessible means idiots like the guy who fired the gun that killed the girl from the OP and all the kids who shot up schools will easily be able to get them.

Sorry my point is valid, ITS A FACT
You and all you other gun lovers who dont care about people dying senselessly as long as you have your guns to cuddle at night are the fails

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
I wont be responding to anyone who uses this as a platform to tell me guns are OK, quite frankly Ive had enough and have dealt with all your pointless and contradictory arguments a million times over.
As long as guns are readily available to everyone stories like this and Sandy Hook are gonna keep happening.

Just being the devil's advocate a bit here, but isn't this a forum of discussion? debate? You can't start a topic of discussion and declare its outcome before it starts. That's just not cricket. haha. Well you probably can, but it does nothing for the credibility of the OP.

It defeats the whole purpose of a discussion. You will have 2 sides whether you want to hear it or not.

Anyway, carry on.

EDIT: Oh, and while there are a lot of views on gun ownership that are misinformed and "pointless" (in your words), there are still a few logical arguments, for instance, the prevention of martial law.
By saying "guns are bad. FULL STOP" makes your argument as valid as the advocates you're trying to put down. You hold no room for compromise. Hence your argument is as invalid as theirs.

Originally posted by IkNOwSTuff
reply to post by AwakeinNM

 

Why isn't this post in Rants? Why Politics? Why is a Constitutional Amendment even being debated? Not only is the right to keep and bear arms in the BILL OF RIGHTS, It is Number TWO in line, after freedom of speech. It seemed pretty damned important to the founding fathers to put it so high up in the pecking order in the RIGHTS of the PEOPLE. I wonder why that is?

It was so high because when it was written you were fighting the British

Say no more. While "you" were fighting the British? As in "you" and not "us", as in "I am not a U.S. Citizen and should probably shut my face about U.S. Constitutional matters"?

I thought so.

Sorry if someone already posted this:

Myth-busters Episode 50


Bullets fired into the air maintain their lethal capability when they eventually fall back down.

busted / plausible / confirmed

In the case of a bullet fired at a precisely vertical angle (something extremely difficult for a human being to duplicate), the bullet would tumble, lose its spin, and fall at a much slower speed due to terminal velocity and is therefore rendered less than lethal on impact. However, if a bullet is fired upward at a non-vertical angle (a far more probable possibility), it will maintain its spin and will reach a high enough speed to be lethal on impact. Because of this potentiality, firing a gun into the air is illegal in most states, and even in the states that it is legal, it is not recommended by the police. Also the MythBusters were able to identify two people who had been injured by falling bullets, one of them fatally injured. To date, this is the only myth to receive all three ratings at the same time.

reply to post by Raelsatu

My question was mostly rhetorical. The point I was making is this sudden surge in anti-gun threads --- spurned by the events at Sandy Hook --- is shallow & redundant. You're doing the same thing the media does; use an isolated tragedy to incite an emotional response. "Oh look what the guns did. Ban them. And anyone who's pro-gun is an irresponsible mass-murder enabler". To paraphrase that is.

No need to paraphrase as its pretty much what Im saying, if you are for guns being readily available then your basically for guns being accessible to any loony who wants one. If you can go out and get a gun then so can a guy whos unbalanced and planning on shooting up their school or their office etc etc

P.S I don't own any firearms, and personally I don't like them. However I know people who do; and I respect them as responsible, law-abiding individuals. Guns just part of the culture? Yes, that's exactly the case. Guns exist. Telling every gun owner that they're not allowed to own firearms because it "prevents children from shooting up schools" is utter nonsense.

OK the people you know are fine, what percentage of the 100 million firearms owners can you vouch for?

Hardly ever? So you're telling me the majority of gun-related homicides are not a result of criminal activity? I.e beef between gangs, members of gangs, robbers, cold-blooded killers, etc? I forgot, all those gun deaths are caused by school children & the like...

Vast majority of gun deaths are criminal on criminal deaths, a small percentage involve law abiding citizens.
I think its 84% of gun victims have previous criminal records. Once again shooting civilians is not good for business

By the way, tell that to the citizens of Mexico, and even those located in areas near the border. You would be astounded by how many civilians are tortured & murdered by these criminals. Taking away guns from those trying to live peace is not going to make the situation any better; it'll only prompt a quicker takeover by the power-hungry.

Vast majority of the guns in Mexico come from the states and Im pretty sure most of the deaths are drug related, either people who have reported on them or worked for other cartels or snitched etc etc.
I doubt very much they are going around shooting civilians for no reason.
Ive heard this argument before and I dont see what a Mexican drug cartel war has to do with US citizens carrying guns

As for conspiracies, you act as if they don't exist. You act as if removing guns from society is going to solve big problems.... Well it's not. It's not about the guns, but who uses them. And if you're looking for the shining example of where most gun-related deaths come from, look no further than the war profiteers, mercenaries, gangs/cartels, foreign government militias, brainwashed soldiers, and every other sort that is NOT responsible gun owners. Perhaps you can figure out a way to take away all firearms from everyone at the same time?

I know conspiracies exist, I think theres one to get you all buying guns.
Removing guns would solve a big problem, kids shooting up schools!!
How many New Yorkers or even Texans are realistically in danger from any of those boogey men you mentioned? bugger all therefore they are no justification for wanting guns

The fact you have to use straw man arguments to make a point is very telling. Many of us, including me, don't like firearms. For multiple reasons. So much death and suffering has been caused by the use of them. At the same time, if you take away the peoples ability to defend themselves with a basic level of technology -- the same type that is easily accessed by any criminal --- you're making a horrible mistake. Using children as a platform for your arguments doesn't male it a rational one.

You dont like firearms yet you argue in favour of them being available
Guns are easily accessible to crims BECAUSE they are easily accessible to the general public, how do you not see that
It doesnt matter if its children, teenagers, adults or the elderly way to many people get shot in the US and its because of your antiquated gun laws, FACT

Originally posted by GBP/JPY
reply to post by IkNOwSTuff

 

gotcha on that one....you posted "because some crazy had easy access to a gun......" now we're gonna make you tell us how to make it not so easy for a crazy to get a gun......do you see that point?....cool

Stop making them available in Wal Mart etc etc and dont keep them in every 3rd wardrobe

Quite simple

reply to post by AwakeinNM

Say no more. While "you" were fighting the British? As in "you" and not "us", as in "I am not a U.S. Citizen and should probably shut my face about U.S. Constitutional matters"? I thought so.

Sure Ill do that when the US stops poking its nose in every otther countries business.

Talk about hypocritical

I really don't understand why you even posted this, I think EVERYONE here on ATS is completely aware of your opinion on guns and our country. You've said yourself that your glad you don't live here.............. well then why do you keep bringing it up. Let it go. Your not going to change the opinion of anyone on this site who is pro-gun. Personally I don't see why your so concerned with what we do with our laws and rights as they are not yours but ours............

This is exactly why citizens shouldnt be allowed to own guns.

Legally purchased, passed all the state requirements yet still goes out and kills 2 men who didnt endanger his life in any way shape or form.

Sick sick culture