Debt Prisons

reply to post by StareDad

Thats cool, and to repeat for the 3rd time, if I were dealing with an individual or small business I would act differently.

While English law allows the options I described I shall continue to offer my story as an example to anyone who is miserably feeling trapped in a 'debt prison' - I worry not about the moral question as long as the corporate world shares an equally similar viewpoint as myself.

Originally posted by StareDad
reply to post by grainofsand

 

No i´m not guarding fiat. Pleasem read all my posts again.
You justify your acting because "they play the same game"
Its childish in my eyes. When you took that loan, I suppose you were forced to do it.
If not, your fault. You got your part of the deal and then you quit. This is all I want to say about the moral thing.
Good night

And onto the other edge of the blade...

What do you think of the morals of banks / loan officers / whatever lender who intentionally lends money to clients with full knowledge they will not be paid back? (This also applies to nations around the world, many of which are facing "austerity measures" now.)

Do you blame the individual for accepting a loan they were never qualified to receive in the first place?

Well, since only Love and Equality is sane and the virtues, and anything is else is harm and money is slavery and abundance (not mercedes and greed, but good flow of abundance, homes, food, activities) should be everyone and opportunities to share talents and skills as well, TPTB are the ones who owe.

Most important whatever decision is made, wanting to be in good standing and keep up with payments and do the right thing, is a good thing and shows character. But remember nothing here, no economics, not anything in this world that is not forged in Love and Kindness and Equality, and isn't about growth of awareness, understanding and improved relationships with other spirit/souls counts.

So, I would pray about it, and seek counsel, take the problem into the bath, connected to water, and meditation, and do some soul seeking. If you have Faith in Higher Power, God/Goodness or Family, seek. And yet despite it all, it doesnt matter anything like relationships to others.

It´s just that in my little lifetime I saw too much people doing # like this with my own eyes. Get the money, spend it all and then no spine to pay it back -> not findable.

There was a case of a really social guy. Just speaking like you. His best friend (since kindergarden) gave him 2500€ to get his depts right (he opted into a gym, went there a year, two year runtime.) and they agreed on a back paying plan without interest. Guess what happen to his best friend? The friend who saved him from getting into big trouble? Guess what, one lost his money, one fleed with the 2500€, never paid the gym. This was 3 or 4 years ago. Never saw the other guy again.

The guy who fleed would have shared everything with you. Now he´s gone with 2500€ in his backpack. Eventually came a half year later to plunder the other ones home, stole a matchmaking airrifle worth 600€ and some other electronic things he thought were worth something. How do I know it was him? Well, the other friend phoned around in sports shops and guess what? The airrifle was sold there. Description fits.

reply to post by StareDad


Apples and Pears .

You are confusing the issue here .

reply to post by 23432


Care to explain why?

My standpoint:
-I agree with the OP that dept is a prison
-I agree that FIAT and bankers are playing foul game
-Most people are not forced by circumstances of life to get a credit. Most credits are for luxury things people don´t need. However, I´m not saying ALL.
-People that are not qualified for a loan but get/take one regardless are at fault.
-> You sign the paper
-> You should know if you can pay it back or not
---> It´s not the fault of the guy who gave you the loan if you are not able to pay it back.
---> Saying the bankster is an idiot because he gave me a loan I will never be able to payback is just ...wow...
-> If you are not able to pay it back to the rates you agreed before, it´s YOUR FAULT. Its YOUR LIFE. You should have checked that before.

Moral standpoint:
You just see the bank as the bad ones. You don´t see the bigger picture. Where does the money come from they lend you? It´s from other peoples bank accounts, they get interests in % for it. The bank loans you money. Its not their money at all. You pay them interest in % for the loan. The difference in interests between the one who lends and the one who gets the loan is their profit. So, if enough people do that and ain´t gonna pay it back, the bank gets into problems when the customers take their money from the accounts. Think what happens? The people that took their money to the bank loose, not the bank itself. Its a devils circle created by dept and interests itself.

Fact standpoint:
You received money through an agreement to pay it back in rates.
You get the money. You spent the money for something that you need or need to pay back another thing that was lent you.
Now, if you disappear, you got money from someone without giving anything or most of the money back.
So someone is missing that money.

Social standpoint:
Well, it´s sad that people fall for the credit trap. Really sad. Of course, there are people that had no other choice because of bad circumstances in their life.

You are a human with a brain. If you sign something you don´t understand its simply your fault.
You created your own prison with that action. You spent the money for something without earning it.
If you disappear its theft to me. Regardless who lent you the money. Banksters or not, the money mostly comes from other people.

Be lucky, you have the option to pay back the minimum you can for x years, other then paying your whole life for that mistake. Saying, well I´m not gonna be legally found for 6 years and everything is okay is unsocial and assholish. Money is were friendships end is the old saying. Guess why? Because of people like that.

Thats all I want to say, no hate, no fiat protecting. You sign, you spent, your fault if you can´t pay it back. You spent money that wasn´t yours.

Do you blame the individual for accepting a loan they were never qualified to receive in the first place?

YES. You learned math in school? USE IT goddamn.
Everybody cries "Oh I don´t want the government to sort my things out for me, I´m able to do it myself"
Well, we see it!

It´s like saying "why should I work when I can get the same out of social benefits?"
Well, it´s sad but you can´t expect someone else to keep you alive.

But I would say however that I did not understand the ramifications of that debt and how it would organically grow over the years to leave me in a position of which I am being completly controlled by it.

You were ignorant of your future. Your fault. From what I read, you did not really need the money.

Originally posted by StareDad
no spine to pay it back

Rather than using emotive terms such as 'no spine' it would be better described as utilising all forms of legislation as prescribed by the relevant authorities. Corporate banks use the same legislation to operate, moral questions do not influence decisions when a banks legal team considers contracts.

There was a case of a really social guy. Just speaking like you. His best friend (since kindergarden) gave him 2500€ to get his depts right (he opted into a gym, went there a year, two year runtime.) and they agreed on a back paying plan without interest. Guess what happen to his best friend? The friend who saved him from getting into big trouble? Guess what, one lost his money, one fleed with the 2500€, never paid the gym. This was 3 or 4 years ago. Never saw the other guy again.

I'm not interested in your friends personal example, for the 4th time now, if my situation had involved an individual or small business my moral choice would have been different.
I'll repeat it a 5th time if you like as you appear to have missed it - if my situation had involved an individual or small business my moral choice would have been different.

The guy who fleed would have shared everything with you. Now he´s gone with 2500€ in his backpack. Eventually came a half year later to plunder the other ones home, stole a matchmaking airrifle worth 600€ and some other electronic things he thought were worth something. How do I know it was him? Well, the other friend phoned around in sports shops and guess what? The airrifle was sold there. Description fits.

Emotive story which is irrelevant to the specific issue of using English law to avoid repayment of a loan provided by a corporate bank.

Originally posted by StareDad
Saying, well I´m not gonna be legally found for 6 years and everything is okay is unsocial and assholish.

That is a personal opinion regarding an individuals legally defined right to use any and all legislation which they may feel assists them in life. As I said previously, if anyone is so passionate about helping the poor struggling banks they always have the option to write to their MP and advocate a change in the law. It is peculiar though that there does not appear to be any strong protest from the banks to enact such a change regarding 'statute barred debt' recovery rules.

Thats all I want to say, no hate

Strong emotionally charged comments though, that is more than evident.

Everybody cries "Oh I don´t want the government to sort my things out for me, I´m able to do it myself"
Well, we see it!

I would have to say that no tears were shed by myself.
I saw an option allowed and sanctioned in English law which assisted my life choices. I took advantage of said option.
The moral issue concerns me not regarding corporate banking, I will use any English law as necessary, while at the same time expecting big business to do exactly the same.
It would be quaintly naive to think that the legal team of any banks sit down and discuss morals while deciding any action they may take - they use the law, alone, as do I.

Again, bleating like a lost lamb on the hillside will not change this situation. If one objects to this then take a stand and write to your MP, start a petition, demonstrate outside parliament etc for a change in the law.
I look forward to seeing how popular such a campaign will be to protect corporate banks from the hazards of 'statute barred debt' legislation.

reply to post by StareDad


You have written an emotionally justified reply . For that I am pleasantly surprised .
However , there emerges another issue here ; Now you are looking at the forest but can't see the trees , so to speak .

Let me ask you one simple question :

If your money was stolen from your property and the very same money has been lent to you and you don't know where the funds came from to b egin with . After , say 3 months , you learn the reality of the theft and you realise that the lender which serviced your credit is actually a thief .

Do you feel obligated to pay back the loan ?



Make no mistake , this is the issue you are missing .
Your reply above have some factual errors .
When an individual borrows money from a corporate bank , you actually believe that the funds are being taking from someone elses savings .
This is the major error on your part .
Banks can't lend other people's money and Banks certainly don't lend their own money either .
So where do the Banks get these funds to lend ?



Banks are practising Usury on a global scale .

Any human being is justified at resisting this piracy .

For you it seems , the issue is simple ;
You've signed on the dotted line therefore you need to pay .
In essence this is your core point .

My point is that the funds that were lent to you actually were yours to begin with and a sleight of hand at the bank convinced you that these funds are someone elses property .

You , like everyone else, have also been had , so to speak .

Economics & Finances & Banks , as they stand are part of a large gigantic ponzi scheme .

To regard the actions of these corrupt organisations as if they were Virgin Mary and put the responsibilities squarely on the borrowers shoulders is not really just nor righteous , morally speaking .

By Law , in a given contract , BOTH parties must bring " Consideration " . If one party fails to provide a Consideration , then the contract is VOID , NULL , INVALID .

What do you think the Banks brought on to the table while these contracts were being signed by both parties ?

Originally posted by StareDad
reply to post by 23432

 

Do you blame the individual for accepting a loan they were never qualified to receive in the first place?

YES. You learned math in school? USE IT goddamn.
Everybody cries "Oh I don´t want the government to sort my things out for me, I´m able to do it myself"
Well, we see it!

It´s like saying "why should I work when I can get the same out of social benefits?"
Well, it´s sad but you can´t expect someone else to keep you alive.

But I would say however that I did not understand the ramifications of that debt and how it would organically grow over the years to leave me in a position of which I am being completly controlled by it.

You were ignorant of your future. Your fault. From what I read, you did not really need the money.

edit on 4-1-2013 by StareDad because: (no reason given)

Thanks for the reply! I agree with you, but just wanted to know where you stood on the issue, which seems unwavering =D

You're on the mark with a modern abandonment of acceptance of responsibility. In my opinion the situation should not matter what you need the money for, if a person agrees to a contract then they should either honor the contract or never sign it. Bottom line.

I have never owned a credit card, never had a student loan (or any contractual loan), etc. I have been fine in this life by living within my means, so I know it is possible. People today ARE dumbed down and dependent on government and television for their knowledge / information. It is no wonder people try to get out of debts because they see on television how easy it is for governments and banks to LIVE in debt, like its normal.

Ever watch a bank go bankrupt? The depositors are (maybe) insured for a certain amount if the bank goes bankrupt. If you have more money in the bank than is federally insured (also a scam), then you LOSE your money. Guess what happens to the bank executives..Jail? Nah. They go find another job at another bank somewhere else. What happens to the banks depositors that lost out? Tough luck, find a better more reliable bank.

Point is... (as I've said before), you only have yourself to trust, and maybe your family depending on today's messed up circumstances.

Originally posted by Philippines
In my opinion the situation should not matter what you need the money for, if a person agrees to a contract then they should either honor the contract or never sign it. Bottom line.

I'm chuckling at the same time as loving your quaint and innocent belief in the idea of a contract with corporate banks, it's cute you assume the multi-national will look at the contract from a similar moral standpoint - they consider the legal position, nothing else.

never had a student loan

Difficult to imagine how one would manage to study for a degree in the UK without taking out a student loan or having the luxury of a benefactor behind the scenes to cover the thousands of pounds charged for tuition plus living costs. I still owe the UK government a few thousand pounds for my study - the student loan does not fall under 'statute barred debt' legislation.

(or any contractual loan), etc. I have been fine in this life by living within my means, so I know it is possible.

Same for me ever since I created the situation where my debts to multi-national corporate banks became 'statute barred' as far as legal recovery is concerned.

People today ARE dumbed down and dependent on government and television for their knowledge / information.

I agree.

It is no wonder people try to get out of debts because they see on television how easy it is for governments and banks to LIVE in debt, like its normal.

Exactly, money and our economic system is not 'real' at all, it is good to see you recognise that.

Ever watch a bank go bankrupt? The depositors are (maybe) insured for a certain amount if the bank goes bankrupt.

£85,000 in the UK per investor, per individual financial institution - not too bad is it.

If you have more money in the bank than is federally insured (also a scam), then you LOSE your money.

That's why people spread their investments and have lots of £85,000 sums invested in many different banks.

Guess what happens to the bank executives..Jail? Nah. They go find another job at another bank somewhere else. What happens to the banks depositors that lost out? Tough luck, find a better more reliable bank.

So you agree that there is a fishy smell coming from our banking systems executives, thats nice to see.

Point is... (as I've said before), you only have yourself to trust, and maybe your family depending on today's messed up circumstances.

Again, nice to see the distrust you appear to have with todays current corporate banking system, it is a well founded position

Originally posted by grainofsand

Originally posted by Philippines
In my opinion the situation should not matter what you need the money for, if a person agrees to a contract then they should either honor the contract or never sign it. Bottom line.

I'm chuckling at the same time as loving your quaint and innocent belief in the idea of a contract with corporate banks, it's cute you assume the multi-national will look at the contract from a similar moral standpoint - they consider the legal position, nothing else.

never had a student loan

Difficult to imagine how one would manage to study for a degree in the UK without taking out a student loan or having the luxury of a benefactor behind the scenes to cover the thousands of pounds charged for tuition plus living costs. I still owe the UK government a few thousand pounds for my study - the student loan does not fall under 'statute barred debt' legislation.

For the record, there are MANY things I don't trust outside of banks =D

About the contract being signed, (to my knowledge) if it is considered a legally binding contract then both (or more) parties are obligated to abide by its terms. This goes for the lender and lendee. If either party breaks the terms of the contract then there should be provisions in the contract which detail that... I can't think of legal terms now. Even with predatory lending practices, each party is still held to the "law" (again, I say that without much meaning). I'm pretty sure there are unscrupulous methods for a predatory lender to end up in court, but with the robosigning incidents, it's wild west in the financial system now.

On college, I never graduated, for the better. Looking back it was the best decision of my life, I may have ended up still in the USA paying off a student loan, a car loan, saving for retirement and paying too many taxes. I also don't trust the education system

reply to post by grainofsand


... And in your situation with "statute barred" -- I think it's great that you did that to the banks, who are all so happy to screw people out of every cent they own and then demand more. If more people had the balls to change lifestyles and do what you did, the banks, government, and corporations may have to rethink their business practices.

The way I look at it is like this...

You only live once. Enjoy life!

I am in medical debt prison . Been sick for many years. My copay is 5k then 20 percent after that.
That adds up year after year.

That said, I do still have a bank account, I have my cell phone contract though my phone company of whom I paid my bill on time for ten years. Got an Auto loan once, because the dealer I got it from, had a husband with cancer and saw my credit report , the only bad was medical, and she sympathized.

I can still get one but at a high interest rate, will not go there.

It does suck. Our bills are paid, but thats all we have enough money for, my phone and internet are our only luxuries. We have to have a land line, for the medical debt collectors, that we turn off. One income household, since I am ill. Catch 22 , can not get disability, since I have not enough work credits due to same medical conditions. I can not claim after my husbands until he reaches retirement age.

I am glad not to have credit cards, could not afford to use them, but it does suck when you try to get an alarm system installed on a house you own and your credit is bad so you can not, It sucks that when my animal is sick I can not get credit care.

Medical debt is the number one debt in this country keeping us slave to the system. Ironically we still got an FHA loan, with low credit score because we had to prove two years of paying all our bills on time, which we have always done, but then could not get an alarm system to protect it, go figure.