Long, long ago, in a galaxy far, far away, or just far away anyway, there was a big explosion that gave us our earth, moon, stars, sun and everything we see.

Yeah, and Micheal Jackson is hetro.

One thing that has always suprised me about atheists who do not believe in a 'Grand Architect of the Universe' is how some things could happen by random or chance.

One item - orbits. How can an explosion cause an almost perfect orbit of our moon (ECCENTRIC by 0.0549), or even earth with an almost perfect circle around the sun - in fact, it has been said that without the earths wobble caused by the moon, we would be in a perfect circle around the sun.

Big bangers think one of two things happened - the moon came from the earth, the moon came to earth.

If the moon came from earth, the molten earth separated into two. However, if the force was great enough to separate a mass from earth, then it would be great enough to keep the two masses from ever getting back together. If they did get back together, the orbit would be an elipse.

If the moon joined the earth from a long journey elsewhere, it would be impossible for it to do anything other than a highly eliptical path around the earth.

Also, the same side of the moon always faces earth. Another added coincidence?

The Sun and Moon have both almost the same angular diameter on the sky.

All coincidence? I know some will say it is, but for just these coincidences to happen would be like throwing a needle and hoping to hit the tip of another needle.

It was obviously done on purpose.

And then again, maybe it wasn't on purpose. But anyway, look at it like this: The Big Bang- maybe it was/is a divine act. Everything starts from something. Maybe God planted the seed of the universe that bloomed into the Big Bang as we understand so far. I'm no atheist, but I do believe in science, too. There is plenty of room in my world to allow for religion and science to co-exist. All of this universe IS God's work, IMO.

[edit on 28-10-2004 by Der Kapitan]

You obviously did some research on this, which is good. What you might have missed is that most of the planetary systems discovered so far are really messed up -- mostly gas giants, highly irregular orbits, etc etc. The fact that we find ourselves sitting on a prime real estate with a nice circular orbit, with the Moon to the boot (which prevent Earth's axis from precession), is due to the fact that these rare conditions made life possible. There are many planetary systems out there, and there must be a few really cool ones like ours. It's big numbers game.

Well...looks like godservant debunked the ol' big bang theory...

back to the drawing boards scientists!

It's kinda odd that extremists on both sides, religion and science, try to debunk each other.(Now I'm only talking about extremists here.)
For the one who says there is plenty of room in their science for religion (by all means NOT organized religion), I have to totally agree w/ you.
I love the Big Bang theory and have been able to integrate a Higher Power into all I know about such theories and the origins of life and how the universe came to be. Say there was nothing in the beginning - well, not 'nothing' - Just a bunch of particles or atoms or the like that floated around wondering what to do w/ itself. Already, there is intelligence because there is thought. The thought got together and exploded into what we know as the big bang. Intelligent particles spread throughout - the Conscious of God expanded creating things that may seem to us to make no sense, but in the grand scheme of things, they do.
Our solar system IS quite unique, and I have seen it many times on the Science channel. So far, they haven't found the carbon molecule ANYWHERE out there and have begun looking for other forms of this carbon molecule. Most other solar systems out there have a chaotic system w/ huge planets whirling around their sun in s/times only 3 days.
And I do believe there is some reason why we are so set apart from other possible forms of life.
Just a thought.

Originally posted by Juanita
Say there was nothing in the beginning - well, not 'nothing' - Just a bunch of particles or atoms or the like that floated around wondering what to do w/ itself. Already, there is intelligence because there is thought. The thought got together and exploded into what we know as the big bang.

You just designed a new version Big Bang which has nothing to do with what we know. There were no atoms before the bang. There was literally no space and time. The science gets quite difficult there, but in essense I can assure you there were not particles prior to the bang. They came much later, after a few microseconds I believe.

Most other solar systems out there have a chaotic system w/ huge planets whirling around their sun in s/times only 3 days.

... and that is partly due to the fact that these systems are the only ones we can observe with current technology. The "cool" systems like ours are too tought to detect.

And I do believe there is some reason why we are so set apart from other possible forms of life.

Since we never saw these "possible forms", that's unfounded.

Explore Chaos theory for a bit. After reading a lot on this subject I am firmly convinced that the universe is a planned event and we can't just see the patterns because the fractal is just so damn big and complex.

You just designed a new version Big Bang which has nothing to do with what we know. There were no atoms before the bang. There was literally no space and time. The science gets quite difficult there, but in essense I can assure you there were not particles prior to the bang. They came much later, after a few microseconds I believe.

Still involves "something" coming from "nothing". If I understand correctly, Jaunita is suggesting that the "something" arose from "thought". In essence, this is the base idea of any religion, whether the "thought" of a single creator, or the "thoughts" of a pantheon, etc.

Yes, Gazruk, you understood me.
I'm sorry that I don't have the technical words to try and explain my integration a little clearer, but thought is a form of energy and I was only trying to break it down into one of those little words unbeknownst to me.

The way I see it...

There has to be a God because there is existance. At some point there had to be some type of creation because something can not just come to existance from non existance. And when you have genesis creation you have a prime trait of God.

Now what exactly God is is up for discussion - He could be the traditional Christian God, or He could be what would really explain existance. Who knows. All I know is that there is no way that there is anything without it first beeing created.

The idea of "pure thought" is an abstraction that's actually false.

Thought is a process running in the biochemical computer called brain. We just tend to invent antropocentric explanation of the world around us, which is due to limitations we have.

I dont believe the bing bang was an act of god because there is no evidence to prove god exists. I think it was the normal theory of highly packed matter that explded. how the mater got there in the first place im not sure of, but that may be because the human brain at its current state is not smart enough to comprehend such things

Originally posted by SmokeyTheBear
how the mater got there in the first place im not sure of, but that may be because the human brain at its current state is not smart enough to comprehend such things

Exactly...no one really knows how something came of nothing...thus man invents God...

Not saying that there isn't a God, but merely stating how the thought of God came to exist...

People are always trying to figure out what the point is of life...but what if there is no point?

By the way I do believe in God, a higher being, call it what you want...just playing devil's advocate. It's fun to discuss things like this even though we will never truly know the answer

Originally posted by American Mad Man
The way I see it...

There has to be a God because there is existance. At some point there had to be some type of creation because something can not just come to existance from non existance. And when you have genesis creation you have a prime trait of God.

Ok, so who/what made god/s. And what made them etc.etc.

A bit mind blowing when you think about it.

No religious person has the right to debunk science until they understand it to the point of being able to advance it.

No scientist can debunk religion until they have faith in God...

The need to argue the conflicting points between the two just shows how desperate people are to convince themselves or other's they are right. The fact is both religion and science are failable and have problems. They can never truely conflict because one works in a world of fact and logic and the other in a world of faith and emotion.

The only wrong people are those that think either one should not be taught and embrassed to learn more about not only our universe but who we are.

This thread will do nothing but cause unproovable "facts" to be thrown back and forth.

Just my 2 cents.

Originally posted by Aelita
The idea of "pure thought" is an abstraction that's actually false.

Thought is a process running in the biochemical computer called brain. We just tend to invent antropocentric explanation of the world around us, which is due to limitations we have.

If thought is a process, isn't there a 'current' that is 'running' that thought? And I'm sorry I haven't researched this yet, but how are brainwaves measured?
Ok, I don't want to go off topic, so you can send a U2U if you care to explain.

Really now that i come to think of it, it is an impossible question to answer for a couple reasons. One saying that it was caused by a scinetific theory like the big bang, we cant comprehend this because our current way of thinking is that evrything has to come form something else. This will seem stupid but maybe there are forces that create somethin from nothing.

two, saying that the universe was created by a god or gods we dont have any evidence that gods even exist, other than in the minds of humans.

Ok I am a non religion person but respect others beliefs (all to there own)

But the big bang theory...... you say it came from nothing now in science terms nothing is actually something it is a physical property and as yet we dont know the physical power of it nor will we ever unless the universe collapses and starts all over again.

But heres a new point what if the universe as a whole collapses and expands all of the time..... like a noah ark situation and starts all over again. Do we exsist in the next version, is it just a re-run, are we bound to a pre-defined exsistance never able to stray from our choosen path (I hope not).

Another point.....The higher power could it be a life form from a higher plane (dimension depends on how you see it) but once again that brings this thought into play it would take god to create us but who created god as a poster with a religious view point said how could nothing make the universe you could say how did nothing make god.........

I thought i put my part in i thought of this so many times
The head hurts and then i give it up

The reason why the moon has such a rotational period as to always face us is due to something called gravitational lock. Mercury only rotates once for every two of its years. Its almost in a gravitational lock with the sun. However, because of the velocity at which it rotates around the sun, it does the next best thing, which is rotating once for every two mercury years. If I recall correctly, many of jupter's and saturn's moons are gravitationally locked.

The moon did not "join" earths orbit from another location. The most easily proven, and most widely accepted theory is that when our solar system was only a proto solar system, there were two protoplanets one of roughly earths size, and one of roughly mar's size. Due to having orbits of almost the same distance from the sun, the eventually collided. The small protoplanet glanced the larger one, some material was consolodated from both planets into the bigger one. The rest was flung away. This ejected material was made mostly from the smaller protoplanet, and eventually condensed into our moon.

Our solar system is unique so far. Granted, but we've only studied a handfull of other solar systems out of the billions in this galazy alone.

The explosion just didnt create this solar system, it created the universe.

For almost perfectly circular orbits, conservation of momentum naturally dictates a circular motion. The reason why it isnt perfectly circular is due to other gravitational tugs from other planets stars asteroids and moons.

Juanita, carbon isnt a molecule, its an atom. Its everywhere by the way. Most planets that have atmospheres have carbon dioxide. Carbon being one of the atoms in that molecule.



This is not saying there couldn't be a higher power, since I believe there is a grand design. Im just answering questions that you seem to be presenting as proof that there must be a higher power. Its just creepy how life is programmed as though we would program a piece of software.

[edit on 28-10-2004 by Galvatron]