NASA Plans to Drag an Asteroid Into Lunar Orbit!, page 4

reply to post by JayinAR

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And how would this affect the Earths tidal processes, spin rate, etc??? It has to have some sort of effect, but what kind??

reply to post by rangersdad

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The rock is the size of a car.
To answer your question...imperceptible.

reply to post by AwakeinNM

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At the same time, isn't "tax payer money" a complete misnomer at this point?
Money in general?

Originally posted by rangersdad
reply to post by JayinAR

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And how would this affect the Earths tidal processes, spin rate, etc??? It has to have some sort of effect, but what kind??

It may not have an immediate effect on earth but what about possibly making the moon's orbit unstable over longer time span? Or possibly crashing onto the moon once we have colonies there? Anybody who says "impossible" is unlikely to have made the necessary calculations.

In over 40 years since landing 6 manned missions successfully on the moon, we....
did not go back to the moon in manned missions
did not even land any unmanned crafts that returned to earth
do not have a decent theory about why the moon's rotation is synchronized to its orbit ("tide" does not work)
did not take detailed pictures of the surface (comparable to Google Earth)
did not take detailed sub-surface imagery
know little about its present seismic condition
did not attempt to exploit its resources
do not have a satellite in moon orbit

But we landed a rover on Mars. Why did we lose all interest in the moon itself?

reply to post by JayinAR

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seattletimes.com -
Deep-pocket dreamers aim high with space mining...
www.bizjournals.com -
Planetary Resources could employ hundreds to build asteroid-mining robots...

Benefits of learning (through application) how to alter the course of an asteroid:
1) Deflect an asteroid
2) Mining
3) Deep space operations
4) Potentially deeper analyses of its chemistry and organic materials

Who knows what else. I imagine one day we'll build settlement underground on the moon, but I'm sure we'll also far in the future build them on asteroids and convert them to spaceships. My thinking is the larger asteroids offer protection against cosmic rays and solar flares and meteorite impact. They also offer mining opportunities. However, if the spaceship is moving at a rapid pace, the meteor impacts would be so devastating that you'd probably want to use a field to deflect or you'd want to warp space/time. But I think this only matters when you're moving at a fraction of the speed of light.

I personally think we should make larger use of robots rather htan manned missions. Once the cost of space travle comes down over the coming years, manned spaceflight is more practical.

Keep in mind we spend billions every year in the sports industry. How much do we spend on movies and sex and drugs and games and all the other indulgences every year? Investing in space industry is useful to our future security and like hte military it bleeds its technology to other industries.

I think though that we need to enter into space cautiously. We should go as it becomes more economical. This is why I am very happy that private industry is getting much more involved.

History seems to show that to make great strides in anything you need:
1) Existential threat (war, etc)
2) Religious motivation (god, etc)
3) Economic motivation (money, etc)

Those're pretty much it. Humans are full of talk and will give all sorts of reasons we should do something, but when it comes down to it, we humans have only a few basic needs. The desire to live, the need for divinity or spiritualism to answer our deepest questions and the desire for material wealth to assure our future security. These things are our primary drivers and/or instincts.

This idea sounds very cool. But why drag an asteroid to build a base instead of just doing it on the moon?

NASA considers plan to capture an asteroid and turn it into a space station

If approved, the $2.6 billion plan would see the development of a robotic spacecraft that would transport a 500-ton asteroid to the lunar orbit by 2025 where it could be mined for resources and even converted into a base for human habitation. At the same time, it would also offer an unprecedented opportunity to jump-start a mission to Mars — and even launch missions into deep space.

And as the report suggests, a seven-meter, 500-ton asteroid in high lunar orbit would provide a "unique, meaningful, and affordable destination for astronaut crews in the next decade." The authors suggest that it would be a "disruptive" development in the future of space exploration, a breakthrough that would offer an "affordable path to providing operational experience with astronauts working around and with a NEA that could feed forward to much longer duration human missions to larger NEAs in deep space." It would also go a long way to meeting NASA's goals of sending astronauts to an NEA by 2025.

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman
In over 40 years since landing 6 manned missions successfully on the moon, we....
did not go back to the moon in manned missions
did not even land any unmanned crafts that returned to earth
do not have a decent theory about why the moon's rotation is synchronized to its orbit ("tide" does not work)
did not take detailed pictures of the surface (comparable to Google Earth)
did not take detailed sub-surface imagery
know little about its present seismic condition
did not attempt to exploit its resources
do not have a satellite in moon orbit

But we landed a rover on Mars. Why did we lose all interest in the moon itself?

You're wrong on a few points:

The Moon's rotation lock is well understood (it's called tidal lock because tidal forces are involved). en.wikipedia.org...

The Moon has been imaged in great detail (down to 0.5 m/pixel or better) by the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter. You can see the Apollo landing sites, the hardware left there, and even astronauts' foot tracks in the lunar soil.
en.wikipedia.org...
lroc.sese.asu.edu...

There have been many satellites in orbit around the Moon, exploring it and doing various science. For example, the Japanese orbiter Kaguya gave us HD videos from the lunar orbit, and most recently NASA's GRAIL mission measured the Moon's gravity field in detail. More lunar missions are planned, and the Japanese are planning to land a rover there in a few years.

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

(Sorry have not figured out yet how to attach pictures, will do asap)

These are the images
img72.imageshack.us...[/IMG][/URL]

img525.imageshack.us...[/IMG][/URL]

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman
0.5m per pixel sounds great, but only applies to select areas

Higher resolution means smaller field of view. You can see the narrow angle camera coverage map here:
target.lroc.asu.edu...

2009 image technology and the absence of atmospheric diffraction should allow for much better quality (IMO).

Well it doesn't, unless you send a much bigger telescope into lunar orbit, the mass of which would be a bit like sending a command module into lunar orbit (so you better have a Saturn V handy to launch it). Dawes' limit applies regardless of the year.

(I am not interested in the landing sites because the images could be easily manipulated, if so desired.)

I would explain that it's anything but easy to make fake images of the moon perfectly match the features present in apollo's own images of its own landing sites (and indeed it does), or that these images are being acquired and processed by Arizona State University, but I have a feeling my breath is wasted.

As I was trying to indicate, the tide argument is not convincing to me (until I understand the effect of "tidal forces" on solids). I have not noticed how they affect land masses on earth, have you?
...
Some people claim that most moons have the same phenomenon but I was unable to find any data on that. Do you happen to know of any?

Earth's rotation is gradually slowing for the same reason. I guess you don't believe in that either. Most major moons of the solar system are all tidally locked to their parent planet. Here's a list (S indicates synchronous rotation, aka, tidally locked):
nineplanets.org...
I have a feeling you won't believe it though, you didn't believe the phenomenon applied to most moons in the solar system even though you were told that it did, so why believe the list? I get the feeling you're not going to believe any of this because you haven't seen it for yourself so anyone (indeed, everyone) else could be lying.

Originally posted by JayinAR
reply to post by QMask

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I think the plan has its pros and cons, personally. This apparently was Obama's idea.
I don't like the sound of that.

NASA is following the directives of the president, who is not an physicist, a scientist, and is only paid to manage the affairs of the nation???

NASA doesnt have the right to drag an asteroid into orbit around earth or earth's moon, it doesnt own the planet, that is co-op shared venture with 7 billion people. And we don't need that kind of stuff.

Originally posted by ThinkingHuman

Originally posted by ngchunter

Earth's rotation is gradually slowing for the same reason. I guess you don't believe in that either. Most major moons of the solar system are all tidally locked to their parent planet.

Higher resolution means smaller field of view. You can see the narrow angle camera coverage map here:

Well it doesn't, unless you send a much bigger telescope into lunar orbit, the mass of which would be a bit like sending a command module into lunar orbit (so you better have a Saturn V handy to launch it).

I would explain that it's anything but easy to make fake images of the moon

You are correct in that I do not want to believe. I prefer to understand.

It seems to me you don't understand and don't want to understand, you want to actively dis-believe whatever the "mainstream" position is.

I see a qualitative difference there. Here are the problems with your answer:
- Did somebody measure by how much the earth rotation is slowing or did you just say that without knowing?

Yes, earth's rotation is measured, so no I didn't say that without "knowing."
www.iers.org...

- How do you know the reason? Did somebody remove the "tidal effect" as a control?

Gravity works. Don't believe me? You can measure it yourself in a lab with a torsion balance.

- You avoided to answer my question, What is the tidal effect on earth's land masses (since the moon does not have any oceans)?

Tidal force is a force, it doesn't matter if it's land or water that is affected, the amount of force is the same regardless. The effect it has on water in terms of amount of deformation is of course different than that of land, but that is irrelevant to your level of misunderstanding. Tidal force = force of gravity on object's near side - force of gravity on object's far side. It's simple math, the type of material affected does not factor into the amount of force.

- Why are only "most", not all major moons "tidally locked"?

I don't think your level of understanding is ready for that discussion yet.

- What about the minor moons? Why are the planets not "tidally locked" to the sun?

Again, you need to understand the basics before you understand all the ramifications. You're not ready for that yet. Minor moons are often newer to the parent planet than the major moons, thus tidal deceleration of its rotation has not yet had sufficient time to induce tidal lock. Many minor moons are also farther from the parent planet than the major moons, thus it takes longer since tidal acceleration forces decrease with the distance cubed. The planets themselves are far more massive and have far more rotational inertia than moons, and most are sufficiently far from the sun that tidal forces are too weak to have brought them into tidal lock yet (again, distance cubed, not distance squared, but you probably don't even understand that part yet). Mercury, however, is locked in a 3:2 spin-orbit resonance with the sun, which is very stable due to tidal forces. How it arose has to do with its orbital history.
www.nature.com...

Your explanation provides no evidence and no logic reasoning. There is nothing that is understandable, only believable for those with blind faith. You are just repeating some mantra that YOU believe in but does not make any sense.

Excuse me, excuse me. Just because it doesn't make sense to YOU does not mean it does not make sense or lacks logic or lacks evidence. It has all those things, it is simply that you are ignorant of it.

LROC does not show more than a small portion of the whole surface, no matter how you want to describe the camera angle.

Again you demonstrate that you do not want to understand.

"much bigger telesecope"? Hubble is taking pictures with amazing resolution of objects billions of light years away, the surface a few hundred miles away requires a camera the size of a command module? Can you show me the math on that?

Do you know how big those galaxies are in angular size compared to the equipment left behind on the lunar surface? Yes or no? The galaxies Hubble sees are many arcseconds wide when viewed from earth, the equipment on the moon is a tiny, tiny fraction of an arcsecond wide. The lunar descent stage is the biggest thing left down there, about 4 meters across at the base, and at a distance of about 400,000km it's only 0.002 arcseconds wide. Dawes' limit gives us the formula for Hubble's resolving power. R = 11.6 / D D = 2.4 meters, so R = 0.05 arcseconds, far too little to resolve anything left on the moon (and by the Nyquist sampling theorem, it's effectively like 0.1 arcseconds).
(By the way, I said mass of the command module, not size - the former directly dictates how large of a rocket you need to get where you're going, the latter really only dictates fairing size).

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