Why is it that people with no knowledge of communism are so against it?

Communism is NOT what americans have been force fed. It is NOT having good social services, having your taxes boomerang back into your community, having equality and equalizing programs and a safety net, it is NOT Norway/Sweden/Finland. Those countries are the best democracies in the world who honor their constitution.

Communism IS Fascism, it is a police state, it is not being free.

It is also closest in "feel" to an ultra right winged conservative country. It has scarsity and lack of programs. Far Right democracies are more the "feel" of living in a communistic country for the majority of the citizens in it, of course not for the rich.

My friend and her family escaped from Hungary before the curtain fell. She thought she was politically conservative until we were under the conservative government and she then told me, this is just like Hungary, working for no income, no housing, (she and her kids lived in a family unit motel room and she couldn't afford a vehicle. She worked nearly full time, just under the hours to get benefits, for KFC). The only advantage was the VCR, whoopee, she gained a VCR. She learnt the ABC's of politics no one teaches. And Didn't Vote Conservative when she finally could.

I have the same question and I lived under communism. This is not a question if it works or not it is a question as to how someone that never lived it or understand it through experience can actually have an opinion to know for sure it is not good.

It certainly has some bad aspects so does capitalism but do not come to me that I have been through it and tell me with certainty that it works or not when you do not have any clue.

Be against it if you know for sure , through experience you can know.

I would not change my experience under communism for nothing and this may take many by surprise and if you will ask me why is because it made me who I am today and I feel I am a way better product than some of the ones from capitalistic societies. I am sorry I call it a product but I have a lack of a better word at this time.

Ok, well, I find this sort of interesting. I took a class where we discussed this in depth and while that was about 12 years ago I think I remember enough to enlighten some folks. Let me apologize if I leave anything important out. And full disclosure, I am not always right about everything. Feel free to disagree. In response to the original question as to why people with supposedly no knowledge of communism are against it I have two ideas. First, I think a lot of people just don't know exactly what it is. For one, these so called communist parties are not. Secondly, and I fit this category, some people actually have an understanding and don't ever see it working.
No real communist society has ever existed. Mark was a philosopher, basically. His basic premise is that societies and economies evolve through various stages. From a feudal society, to a free market, to socialism and then on to communism. It isn't just about economy though, it is also about human enlightenment. Basically a serf gets tired of being basically owned and they want some freedoms and a share of the pie. A free market evolves where there is an excess of goods and services for everyone, but not everyone has the means to attain the goods and services that they need. So socialism comes along and eliminates all the want by redistributing the wealth and then suddenly everyone becomes so much more enlightened and no government is needed and everyone lives happily ever after. That's basically it.
A couple of things though. Marx himself acknowledged it had never been done before. Marx was upset that his philosophy was being perverted. See, Marx believed in the "steps" required and you can't skip a step. Russia went from basically a feudal system to forced socialism. They forgot about how important it is to establish a means of production in the free market. Actually, Marx had predicted that a communist revolution would happen in the United States or Britain or another developed country first. And one more thing, supposedly, according to the philosophy, people won't be slaves to anything. Free from want, need and greed these enlightened humans would live in a utopian society where a man could be a hunter in the morning, a fisher in the afternoon and a poet at night. Supposedly it would actually foster human creativity and ingenuity.
That's about it, in a nut shell. Thanks for indulging me.

reply to post by Rigel Kent

I also note that upto 3 million or so Americans are currently expatriating themselves from the USA every year

Any of them getting shot in the back as they make their way over the barbed wire atop the border wall? I didn't think so.

As for the history books, just query the Internet regarding such topics as the Berlin Wall, Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, Castro, and so on. There are so very many books regarding people's lives in communist countries and attempts to escape.

My wife is generation zero from China. She has no plans to return to China and is very happy with the way things work in the US.

reply to post by NysgjerrigDame


I'm late to the game, so I'll be brief. Communism = Collectivism. Collectivism = loss personal choice and freedom. Loss of personal choice and freedom = slavery. Slavery to the collective. It is anathema to freedom and ALWAYS results in tyranny. History demonstrates this fact.

Whereas I agree that Socialism and Communism are two different things, they both suck equally in that they eventually lead to the same outcome - a loss of personal choice and freedom and evolving into tyranny.

reply to post by chrome413


Very well stated indeed. Now, do you see the flaws in this philosophy, or do you believe it feasible?

My contention is that human nature; propensity toward violence and greed make this utopian aspiration dead on arrival. In order for Marx theory to work, human nature has to change dramatically. It is this exercise of force to change human nature that poisons the soup, so to speak. Each nation ends up with a negative feedback loop that places the country right back to where it started.

Again, history has demonstrated this again and again. The only way through this roadblock is to lobotomize everyone - then you end up with the "Borg" or full-on rebellion. I theorize that our chemical culture is simply a new method to attempt to "Lobotomize" the masses - but for a different thread at a different time.

reply to post by kozmo


I should have been more clear, but I don't ever see it working for pretty much the reasons you just described. I thought about going into the human condition of greed and absolute power corrupting, but decided I was long winded enough for just my second post to ATS.

Originally posted by NysgjerrigDame
I agree. Most so-called communists just use that fact that communism is most logical and makes the most common sense to become dictators. Examples are the USSR, cuba, North Korea, etc. But nobody ever talks about Spain before Franco's coup. I believe that unless you've read the Communist Manifesot, Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, State and Revolution: by Lenin, the Foundations of Leninism, The New Class: Djilas, Combat Liberalism (communists detest liberalism), I do not believe that you have right to talk about it. There are many more works that ought to be read on the matter. Most of ATS believes the lies of the West, but if any, those of you whom have truly studied the communist works, what is your argument against it?

edit on 2-1-2013 by NysgjerrigDame because: (no reason given)

edit on 2-1-2013 by NysgjerrigDame because: (no reason given)

Let me start by saying that here in the USA we have that little thing called The Constitution and the Bill of Rights, which says we have the right to free speech and press. That means that here in the USA I can say pretty much what I want. Perhaps that is the difference between here and wherever you are that you practice Communism. If I was in a Communist country I could just be arrested for speaking out against the leaders. I would point out that liberals here are trying to make everything politically correct, so that talking about against people will get you in a lot of trouble. Do they even realize what it means to do that? Our former President Wilson made speaking against the govt an act of treason with his Sedition Act. That basically was unConstitutional. The reason for having freedom of speech and press and to redress govt is to give the people a way to address tyranny should the govt overstep it's Constitutional bounds.
Our current President says he would like to dispense with dealing with our Congress, and why? Because some in Congress disagree with him. Could that be strains of dictatorship? All our Presidents use Executive Orders as a way to get around Congress and the People. Is it right? Can it be used right?
So I can say what I want about Communism here, and I don''t need to know about Spain and Diljas specifically to do so, because no matter where it is practiced, it fails.
You mention "lies of the West". Are you going to tell me that Alexsander Solzhenitsyn lied about the Gulags in the Soviet Union? Are you going to tell me that the Politburo did not suppress if not downright persecute the Church and murder and imprison it's clergy? Are you going to tell me that every body was happy having no property and no individual rights and working on Collective Farms with no way to make their lives better? Are you going to tell me we were wrong about the KGB spies? Are you going to tell us that those who defected are wrong about KGB operatives infiltrating and being sleepers in society to make change?
People in Spain appear to be protesting with pitchforks. What are they protesting? I believe it is "austerity", or the govt being austere and not giving out to the people. Well that is what the Nanny State is, the govt giveth and the govt taketh away, whenever it wants and from whomever it wants. It is completely diabolically opposed to private property and individual rights, no matter how many times Communists say it's just giving power to the workers. It does not give any power to the workers in practice. It gives power to the State and the workers just plod along with no hope for a better life. That is the reality that the Soviet Union taught us.

Philosopher, St Augustine said: The World is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.

Stop reading books people and travel and learn by your own experiences. I would say Ive traveled and lived with a lot of amazing communities. Now communities is the operative word here. Small communities?. Ive lived in china at a town level or village level what an amazing system they have. Nationally crap system.

Now my country is New Zealand, I'm biased but will say this we do rank well in the world when it comes to lifestyle and standard of living.

Universal health care
7% unemployment
A passport that is almost universally accepted.
We have a unarmed police force.
A small military highly respected around the world.
ACC - no fault medical care for everyone, including foreign nationals on holiday.
No national ID system, don't need it.
High tech 1st world infrastructure

I feel as a nation we have the best and worst of all government systems at national down to local levels. But this is what makes my country one of the best in the world to live and play.

I don't bother reading much OP, I prefer to live life through doing!

reply to post by NysgjerrigDame


It really looks good on paper...and if we were all good people...it would work...but we are not...too easy for corruption...

I often think of my time in the military...the military kind of works like communism..in a way..and it works well..but we have a huge group of citizens funding us (in the USA of course) so sure life can be great in the military and it works!

Too easy to corrupt is why it can't work...

reply to post by kozmo


Like you mentioned "lobotomies". Socialism/communism in its Marxist form "pie in the sky"way, can only exist if every single human being agrees and wants the same thing. There's the rub, no individuals. They would have to be unthinking robots.

Not every human wants to live a life of just sustainability. Some people want more. Some people want to do nothing. There is no way to have that kind of society unless we are lobotomized or enslaved.

Period.

PS. The whole Jim Jones aspect of the Marxist appeal with these people is really frightening.

reply to post by NysgjerrigDame

Please give me the name of a communist country and I will go there. I own my own business and have the funds to go anywhere. Please tell me a single country that practices the writings and I swear to the creator of all that I will go there and report back. Please do not give me the name of a country that says that they are communist by name. If that is true, then the KKK is christian and all christians hate and wish to slaughter all jews, catholics, blacks, mexicans, etc... Get my point?

Can we not logically argue then a new title? China, USSR, Viet Nam are referred to as communist countries by themselves and other countries....so how about....
Why is it that communist countries with no knowledge of communism are so against it?

True communism, to my knowledge, has never been tried...except perhaps in pre-'civilized' egalitarian societies...people who are so against it have no idea what true communism is, and their opinion is therefore irrelevant.

BTW, true Communism has no up-down power structure...noone can have any more rights or access to resources than anyone else...so a dictator or any form of inequality is impossible.

We've never had true Communism and the PTB will do everything in their power to insure we don't. Reason being: They will have to work just like everyone else, not just sit ahigh.

I'm surprised so many here at ATS fall so easily for the illusion?

I repeat: TPTB will INSURE Communism NEVER works because they would no longer be elite, they will have to WORK like everyone else.

They insure communism never works by placing and supporting tyrant psychopaths in countries that even THINK about communism. They then allow these sick people to install statist systems yet call themselves communists. To top it off they are SURE to broadcast the atrocities committed and highlight how lucky American citizens are. After all this they then send our soldiers to kill the tyrants they first supported and placed in power.

We may not have the technology to implement communism on a grand scale yet. It would have to be implemented in a ALREADY FREE country. That's what's been missing from the equation.

We need a tech where we can account for and hold responsible EVERY individual in society. That way sick people wouldn't obtain positions of power in the government and then skew the economic system of communism.

If communism was what you have been taught, we would have it here in America. What better way to control your populous? The next best thing to a statist government is a capitalist society. Not as much overt control, but they make money hand over fist.

IN A COMMUNIST SOCIETY WE WOULDN"T HAVE ELITES...THEY WOULD BE WORKING RIGHT BESIDE US!

Think on this for a minute, and reevaluate what you believe about commuism.

reply to post by NysgjerrigDame


I would suggest reading the black book of communism then come back and try to convince me how great communism is.

reply to post by ANOK

Really, America is to blame for Cuba's problems and economy, No sir, a controlling dictator in a socialist idiot arena did just that. Cuba was a somewhat paradise in the early 50s, do your research before you spout bull. Can you imagine what Cuba would be like if it were allowed to prosper in a TRUE capitalist republic??? It is just amazing how paper puppets paint a pint of sheer theology and make it sound better than heaven. Our mindset of utopia is too juvenile to create a communist society that will come close to even 5% operable. seriously, who gets the position in the worker owned factory, how do you build a structure where it is really fair, you dreaming utopia commies crack me up in the real sense of the word. If everyone is equal who runs what, what is the reasoning to achieve as the non achiever gets the same, what is the reason to build a competing product that is better, therefore better products will never become real, why try??? Everyone has their dreamworld where all is balanced and fair, I have read this and that, I know this and you do not, Get a true clue people nothing is fair, get off your ass and work for your future, NO ONE owes you anything, It is your resposibility to control the quality of your life, deal with reality, Capitalism is great if you are not lazy, stupid, self centered and have you hand out all of the time, please continue to insult your lack of drive and determination to be something other than a lame human.

The Commie Revolution in Russia pretty much started with the murder of an innocent man and his family. From there it progressed to purges, domestic terrorism, mass incarceration and reprogramming. Stalin killed more than Hitler did but no one vilified him as they vilify Hitler. It's all very strange.

The population spent years queuing up for hours to get a roll of T.P. and a shred of beef. They became alcoholics because there was nothing else safe to do and lived cheek by jowl because the government wouldn't build adequate housing.

People couldn't move around the country without the proper paperwork. You couldn't speak your mind or meet with others, and if the KGB picked you up they didn't Mirandize you, they pulled out your fingernails and sent you to Siberia. You may not even have done anything wrong.

Gee, I wonder why I don't like Communism/Socialism.

Stalin killed somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 million. He beat Hitler by around 14 million.

Doesn't that bother anyone?

If we're going to have a productive conversation, we're going to need to discuss what communism ACTUALLY IS, as in the communist manifesto, etc. Emotional talk based on countries who have called themselves communist but didn't actually act in accordance with the fundamental doctrines of communism have no place in a discussion on actual communism...

Originally posted by chrome413
Free from want, need and greed these enlightened humans would live in a utopian society.

"Utopian society" that good societal intention...but we all know that "the road to Hell is paved with good intentions."

SSDD

Historically, Communism blows, even if it was executed as Socialism. Pun intended.