Do I have to be apart of religion to know God?, page 5

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reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 12:51 PM by Jameliel

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by Khurzon

Sorry...I should have separated those experiences from the out of body experience.

Meaning to say, the ghost, and other experiences were "in body".

Do you have your sight, still of today?

Jhill6, would you mind to give your enlightened opinion about someone saying they are an Ark(arch-angel), and telling people they will do something, but never doing it?

reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 01:04 PM by Smashb0x

reply to post by jhill76

For some people, the only way for them to know god is to find religion first. Of course, religion is not required to know God. God exists outside of religion and nobody should be able to tell you different.

reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 01:12 PM by skyzeagle

reply to post by jhill76

I didn't read all posts before this but the answer is "no."

Religion provides us a way to both personally and socially confirm the existence of our spirit, a higher power and/or being and provide a sense of morality by way of order set forth in that form of worship.

If you feel as though you can do that consistently and sufficiently without attending church, at least the United States of America still offers that freedom for you to do so. (I was going to add for now, but really that's not going to change regardless of who responds to that remark.)

What religion does provide you with is the perspective both at the collective level of information about how you view God/Mohammed/Buddha/Insert-Higher-Being-Here by way of regularly attending services designed to give you opportunities to reflect anew on God. Also, being a part of a religion if even casually means you have a chance to relate to others in that religion (or even other religions) on the basis of a set of beliefs giving you even more chances to see God - whatever that means to you.

What is important most of all is that you continue your path of understanding just like you value a path towards education. Atheist, Wiccan, Buddhist, Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Zoroastrian, etc. they are all software that pretty much lead you to the same goal of understanding why we're here, for what purpose and what best use that may represent to others on this planet.

reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 01:15 PM by trailertrash

reply to post by jhill76

Sure it is... God was there before any such thing as a religion remember. Just as a note of interest the first three hundred years of what turned out to be Christianity saw very little of any sort of organization. The practices were very different from one place to another. The eleven surviving disciples went to different parts of the known world and preached as they saw fit.

The dominant religion in our part of the world is Christianity but ours is the kind that is directly descended from that which was organized by the emperor Constintine back in about 312 AD. It was he who told us that we only needed the writings of four of Christ's disciples for instance and that the other seven were OK to ignore.

Early, pre-Constintine, Christianity taught us to worship God individually. No priests or firm liturgy were required. This world of the new religion was one where gatherings in peoples' homes was the common method of practice. The teachings were closer to what was taught by Jesus than at any time since. There was almost no teaching of sin and corruption, eternal punishment or hellfire at all. It was, truly, a new religion of joy in worship. Now, it seems, we have "joy" but only that which is derived from acknowledging that we are sinners first and lifted by God only after we humiliate ourselves in front of a priest second. The key here is the absence of the priests and when I say "priest" I mean anyone who stands to place him or herself in between the individual and God. I include all priests, protestant preachers too.

The three religions of Abraham are dominant in our western world. They all have priests but of them it is only Islam that is closest to original practice. Only Islam maintains it's holy book in the exact form in which it was first recited. If you are looking for the religion that is closest to it's beginnings avoid both Judaism and Christianity. If you must be a member of a religion that has seen the least changes through the years then turn to Islam

If you reject all religions then turn directly to God as did the early Christians. How do we tell the difference? Easy. Go to a Christian meeting and if the same man/woman stands before you each week; if you are asked for money; if it is suggested to you that there is only one way to God, then you are not in the pure practice of Christianity that used to be. The truth is that you will never find it as long as you search without yourself. It only exists within each of us. The reason is easy to understand. God made we humans both aggressive and competitive. We cannot for long abide an assemblage where no one rises to lead. This is the reason there are no pure religions on earth.

Begin by throwing away all religious writings. Keep none of them. Do likewise with any ICONS that you may have. Next get rid of all books on philosophy and history. Position yourself so that there is nowhere to look except inside yourself. Then, when this is done, find God waiting. It is sooooo easy but sooooo hard too. Humans reject the aloneness that is required. We prefer being grouped according to social externals.

None of this matters. Reject all that I have said.... Listen to no other man, not even me. Only then will God be known to you.

reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 01:15 PM by trailertrash

reply to post by jhill76

reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 01:22 PM by JiggyPotamus

I will break it down for you from a Christian perspective, because even many adherent to this religion do not understand what the scriptures teach. Non-Christians always claim that the Christian God must be cruel to allow all of those people who never got a chance to hear the gospel to go to hell, but that is not how it works. If people in this category do not openly reject God, live relatively good lives morally speaking, and love their fellow man, then they are going to most likely go to Heaven. This is because the entire point of Jesus dying on the cross was to basically offer a sacrifice to atone for the sins of all people.

So basically when a good person dies, but a person who never got the chance to hear the gospel, God will give this person credit for what Jesus did, and attribute that to their "record," as it were. But the people who know about God and Jesus but still openly reject them are not going to get into Heaven, at least from my interpretation of scripture. There are also prominent theologians who believe this idea to be correct. And believe it or not, there will be people who may be given a chance to repent after they die, yet who will still reject God. But I am not positive if anyone or everyone will get a chance to repent for their sins after death.

Considering that God really is merciful, and really does love us, it stands to reason that if you love Him as well, and generally have love in your heart for your fellow man, you will be saved. I think the only reason God would purposefully send someone to hell is if they refuse to believe and turn their lives around. But something that is very important is this: People often say that there is not any point to church and worship if believing and accepting is enough in itself, but this idea is wrong. There will be different outcomes, imo, between what happens after death to the extremely pious, and the last minute confessors.

This is not a Christian teaching, but one I've developed on my own, for various reasons I will not get into in this thread. There really are people who LOVE to worship God, because they love Him. This is what God wants all people to do, but He will likely not condemn people unless they refuse to acknowledge His divinity. Some say this is conceited, but what people fail to realize is that they cannot read the mind, or know the feelings and ideas of the Creator. Even his "thinking" would be beyond the scope of our understanding, and this is why He is God.

I also have another extremely important idea regarding belief. I got this idea from the scriptures, but I am not sure that the Christian faith has picked up on it...Or I could be misinterpreting it, but I don't think so. Even someone who is not a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim, since all worship the God of Abraham, can still go to Heaven despite the fact they did not worship the real God. This is because of their faith. The whole point is the ability to put faith into something that can never be proven, and that has many detractors.

Righteousness by faith. It takes a lot to really make that leap into the unknown, and wholeheartedly believe in something that could possibly not even exist. I think those who are willing to take this step, and worship in church and live a pious life, are going to reap the rewards in the next life, while those who do not put faith into their religion may or may not experience everlasting life. We cannot know these things with certainty, so it is better to err on the safe side, and start believing in something. And go beyond belief as well.

And a person can believe in science and evolution and still believe in God. With all of the debate and bickering initiated by some religions in response to the theory of evolution, I cannot believe that the majority did not stop and think that they were making a huge mistake. God never revealed how He created the world and the universe, or how these things worked. And even if he had told Moses, who authored the book of Genesis, there is no way he would have known what God was talking about, lol.

At that time the details were not important. And I think this was done purposefully. I think God influenced the work of the Bible and its various authors, so that the finished product would present enough evidence for the believers, while deliberately withholding information so that people would have to use their personal faith, instead of reason, to get the correct answer. Anyway, God could easily have used evolution as a tool for creating the universe, and anyone who says that this is not the case is quite arrogant. For who are you to dictate what God can and cannot, or will and will not do?

reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 01:27 PM by Jameliel

People can repent even after death in some cases. To limit it would be to limit God by death. God's hand extends everywhere=) Some people who claim to be something they are not, these will be punished harshly until they understand what they have done.

reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 01:56 PM by skyzeagle

reply to post by Jameliel

People can repent after death?? Do we even know what we will be after death? We are of this Universe, the same one created by that God and whereas our energies flow so beautifully by way of the gift of life given us by our creator, there is nothing known of what will be.

I'm not reminding you of that to frighten you, in fact rather to provide purchase for your faith - whatever faith you have. As theologically unsound as some religious depictions of the after-life may be, not all of them include repentance.

Be clear in one thing: the religion that we use - be it either through Jesus Christ, or through any (repeat) any other prophet or leader no matter the incarnation they may have represented during their stay here on earth, represent one thing. That thing is a path to the Truth of God's love for us (because if God did not love us, we would not exist here even this long). And in knowing that like water traveling to the sea, the truths will guide the way to the one God that there is, was and shall be. This in no way diminishes who the Son of God was, but for perspective - take note:

Did Jesus Ever Say the Exact Words 'I Am God'?

Conversely: Did Jesus ever say he was God?

edit on 3-1-2013 by skyzeagle because: Additional information.

reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 02:01 PM by Jameliel

Yes, you can repent even after death. I do not profess to know what consequences you still must pay for severe sins you commit while in this body, but I know you can still repent. God is not limited.

Originally posted by skyzeagle
reply to post by Jameliel

People can repent after death?? Do we even know what we will be after death? We are of this Universe, the same one created by that God and whereas our energies flow so beautifully by way of the gift of life given us by our creator, there is nothing known of what will be.

I'm not reminding you of that to frighten you, in fact rather to provide purchase for your faith - whatever faith you have. As theologically unsound as some religious depictions of the after-life may be, not all of them include repentance.

Be clear in one thing: the religion that we use - be it either through Jesus Christ, or through any (repeat) any other prophet or leader no matter the incarnation they may have represented during their stay here on earth, represent one thing. That thing is a path to the Truth of God's love for us (because if God did not love us, we would not exist here even this long). And in knowing that like water traveling to the sea, the truths will guide the way to the one God that there is, was and shall be. This in no way diminishes who the Son of God was, but for perspective - take note:

Did Jesus Ever Say the Exact Words 'I Am God'?

reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 02:03 PM by jhill76

reply to post by skyzeagle

What is important most of all is that you continue your path of understanding just like you value a path towards education. Atheist, Wiccan, Buddhist, Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Zoroastrian, etc. they are all software that pretty much lead you to the same goal of understanding why we're here, for what purpose and what best use that may represent to others on this planet.

I agree. Each has it's place in each persons life. Many try to speak on how things work above, and how one path is the correct one.

reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 02:08 PM by Jameliel

Including you the most. You often speak of "above", but yet you have as now failed to once clarify exactly "how" and from "who", you get your information. You say "Father", but what Father? How come he will speak directly and let you gaze upon him. Why do you have to "leave the body" to do this?

Do you need to be religious to do this? Why are you even asking this question? What further to you hope to "learn", by "switching off your emotions", and "observing"? You have asked basically the same questions in different forms over and over. I see you only reply to those convenient for you to answer. You ignore those who challenge your vague and non-descriptive accounts.

The most convincing demons are those which walk closest to the truth, but contaminate it with that sliver of a lie.

Originally posted by jhill76
reply to post by skyzeagle

What is important most of all is that you continue your path of understanding just like you value a path towards education. Atheist, Wiccan, Buddhist, Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Zoroastrian, etc. they are all software that pretty much lead you to the same goal of understanding why we're here, for what purpose and what best use that may represent to others on this planet.

I agree. Each has it's place in each persons life. Many try to speak on how things work above, and how one path is the correct one.

reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 02:12 PM by jhill76

reply to post by trailertrash

Begin by throwing away all religious writings. Keep none of them. Do likewise with any ICONS that you may have. Next get rid of all books on philosophy and history. Position yourself so that there is nowhere to look except inside yourself. Then, when this is done, find God waiting. It is sooooo easy but sooooo hard too. Humans reject the aloneness that is required. We prefer being grouped according to social externals.

I agree. Everyone wants that stepping stone, or crutch to Father, when he is right there waiting for all to speak to him.

reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 02:24 PM by skyzeagle

reply to post by Jameliel

You are muddying the truth with pseudo-wisdom speak.

All I have said, or if I haven't then it was unintentionally ambiguous or not said at all, was this: every person is responsible for their own religious well-being. You will know what is good especially when you are using the beliefs that have already been seen through the existing truths of any number of existing religions. Does that mean you must BLINDLY follow what every church or synagogue or temple is telling you? Of course not!

God didn't only give you the ability to perceive spirit, he/she/it gave you an intellect which, coincidentally, I believe we at least in part share with God's mind but that's a different story.

If you are so ready to use religion to guide you as the sole means of truth in the one life you have, the only gift that you truly were given ever, then it was never a gift to begin with. Even with those people who have chosen to devote their lives to serve others as ministers or catholic nuns or monks...their lives while seemingly singular in their focus is pretty varied and rich. You should talk to one if you haven't and get to know them. You'll be surprised and honored.

The truth is, don't follow a religion if you don't want to but truth, logic and humanity (i.e., morality, kindness, care of others, to name a few) are universal and can be seen, if you look hard enough, as the distilled essence of almost any religion you can find (or perhaps a negative inverse when looking at certain dis-positive types.)

Think. In mathematics. Start with any number representing your potential. Now: be negative. Subtract. Subtract some more. Soon, you'll be scraping along the bottom and with that philosophy, no real hope of change. Start again. This time, be positive. Will negative things happen? Of course, but the philosophy will guide you to see opportunity where only negative showed you diminishing returns before. This is just another way of saying God is love. Religion guides us to see where we can change, where we can thrive, where we can give, hope and enjoy this time here and now.

This is not difficult to enunciate. It just takes practice. And time. I am still trying.

reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 02:44 PM by Jameliel

Im not muddying the truth at all. Its a simple fact that God is not limited by death. If you are able to think, then you are able to call out in repentance. I do not wish to argue or dispute anything with you. It is a fact that even after death you may choose to repent. There are variations to almost anything, but in most cases you can repent. That is not to say there isnt some penalty for sins, there surely is.

Everything I speak comes from within. You dont have to believe it, but Im certainly not muddying the truth. I also dont believe you are trying to muddy the truth. Others on here certainly try to muddy the truth. Those are the ones you should worry about. The ones who speak in conflicting terms. Saying that we can speak to Father at anytime, but that you can leave the body for clear answers. Those who say they speak without emotion, but are in a human form. (sociopath). Those are the ones you should read carefully so that you can discern their lies and intent. (ego and power) Those who claim they are powerful beings, and do not have a human name, yet they sit in a human form and type on forums all day. T H I N K.

Originally posted by skyzeagle
reply to post by Jameliel

You are muddying the truth with pseudo-wisdom speak.

All I have said, or if I haven't then it was unintentionally ambiguous or not said at all, was this: every person is responsible for their own religious well-being. You will know what is good especially when you are using the beliefs that have already been seen through the existing truths of any number of existing religions. Does that mean you must BLINDLY follow what every church or synagogue or temple is telling you? Of course not!

God didn't only give you the ability to perceive spirit, he/she/it gave you an intellect which, coincidentally, I believe we at least in part share with God's mind but that's a different story.

If you are so ready to use religion to guide you as the sole means of truth in the one life you have, the only gift that you truly were given ever, then it was never a gift to begin with. Even with those people who have chosen to devote their lives to serve others as ministers or catholic nuns or monks...their lives while seemingly singular in their focus is pretty varied and rich. You should talk to one if you haven't and get to know them. You'll be surprised and honored.

The truth is, don't follow a religion if you don't want to but truth, logic and humanity (i.e., morality, kindness, care of others, to name a few) are universal and can be seen, if you look hard enough, as the distilled essence of almost any religion you can find (or perhaps a negative inverse when looking at certain dis-positive types.)

Think. In mathematics. Start with any number representing your potential. Now: be negative. Subtract. Subtract some more. Soon, you'll be scraping along the bottom and with that philosophy, no real hope of change. Start again. This time, be positive. Will negative things happen? Of course, but the philosophy will guide you to see opportunity where only negative showed you diminishing returns before. This is just another way of saying God is love. Religion guides us to see where we can change, where we can thrive, where we can give, hope and enjoy this time here and now.

This is not difficult to enunciate. It just takes practice. And time. I am still trying.

reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 02:52 PM by akushla99

No...

Religion (like the word), is a man-made construct.

A99

reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 07:01 PM by skyzeagle

edit on 3-1-2013 by skyzeagle because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 07:21 PM by skyzeagle

reply to post by Jameliel

Where do you think what I speak comes from?

Where do you think what you're apparent professional (is this really the case?) opinion of what a sociopath...where exactly is the soul on a sociopath? Do you know?

Where is the soul on a person with mental illness? With late stage cancer? Are there different places like files in a computer where God keeps storage for the progressively less than normal souls?

The thing that disturbs me most about your posts, Jameliel, is that there really is no room for a God, who by all counts of logic must have created what is before him/her, that hates himself. It is antithetical. It does not even have logic worthy of a God of such omnipotence and omniscience to be able to affect us negatively were that truly the Will.

There is and has only been room for a God, one God in my view, that loves. This God loves despite all that happens, all that we think, all we lose, all we destroy. This is the enduring God of ages, not that hateful one who has been unfortunately been propped up by so many religious men of power over the eons to control people for the sake of power and authority.

And to be perfectly blunt, your replies to my posts which have been nothing but illuminating and understanding in as many ways as I could see fit while maintaining my own dignity, are controlling and rather short sighted.

I hope you are given sight beyond your own limited ability to see only your own personal righteousness. The greatest of spiritual leaders were those individuals who sought enlightenment up until their last days. I won't list them. You either know them or can google them yourself.

May the spirit be upon you,

Skyzeagle

reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 08:07 PM by NewAgeMan

reply to post by jhill76

Is this a bait or a troll thread?

I do know that there's a logical basis for "the height of the law and the prophets" which states, or may be summed up as

Love God with everything you've got (heart, mind, strength, and soul) and (no less important) your neighbor as yourself.

And to love God in this way, is to know God, and according to Jesus, to inherit eternal life.

The key I think is to find the simplicity of God's love on the far side of complexity which is capable of altogether transcending human sin, sorrow, suffering and strife according to a higher way of being.

But if you're just baiting or trolling, then I have to graciously bow out of this thread before I start to violate the spirit of God's love, because I find that just so distasteful.

reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 08:09 PM by jhill76

reply to post by NewAgeMan

But if you're just baiting or trolling, then I have to graciously bow out of this thread before I start to violate the spirit of God's love, because I find that just so distasteful.

I am genuinely curious as to what others have to say on this matter.

reply posted on 3-1-2013 @ 08:33 PM by NewAgeMan

reply to post by jhill76

Ok then, what are your thoughts and what do you think about what I said?

An interesting take btw on the summation of "the law and the prophets" to "love God above all and neighbor as self" can be explored in the whole context of the Parable of the Good Samaritan, which ends with Jesus saying

"Go and do likewise" while leaving his inquisitors utterly speechless. Seriously, it's worth the read.

"God is spirit and truth" - that was to the woman at the well, another wonderful exchange involving Jesus' reframe of God as everywhere "neither in the temple nor on the mountain" but spirit and truth.

There are many ways to approach God but surely some are more effective than others.

For example the Buddhist seeks Nirvana, but at a cost, the loss of one's own self identity or personality and passionate desire, which I believe that Jesus was addressing (not to people of wordly riches) when he said

"What does it profit a man to gain the WHOLE world, but lose his own soul (selfhood, passion, character)?

So while you don't have to be a part of religion, of course not, you may indeed be well served to forever maintain an indispensable I-Thou relationship WITH God as the Absolute, without which the spiritual path can lead to utter ruin, just look at the end result of people like Albert Pike or Aleister Crowley..