Understanding Sin

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
To discover what sin is, read the Law in the Books of Moses.

Lemme just stop you right there. Leviticus was written for Hebrews before Christ came along; it doesn't apply to Gentiles or Christians. If you lived by those laws, you would shun everyone with any physical disability and slaughter your children for back-talking you. Wanna know what happened? Here you go:

Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was their Husband, says the Lord.

- Jeremiah 31:31-32

The House of Judah is the Jewish tribe that gave rise to Jesus Christ. He is "the new covenant." Therefore, Christians are not bound by the "old covenant," and not bound by the Mosaic Law (Leviticus). Any of it!

Any actions which are contrary to the fulfillment of our reason for being here are sins. Consider the way God designed us to reproduce: sex. He blessed and initiated the man-woman relationship known as marriage, by which we multiply and replenish the earth with more of ourselves.

So you know why we're here, then? Clearly it isn't to reproduce; Adam and Eve never had a kid before they were thrown out of the garden (and thus, procreation was not one of the purposes of their marriage, and yes, they were definitely married before the expulsion, by God himself). So why do humans exist? Please share.

I could mention many more examples such as murder, stealing, lies, etc.

Those are all actions that harm someone else against their will. Getting a tattoo harms you a bit, but it's not against your will, so the tattoo artist is blameless. Who do two men in a committed, loving relationship harm? And if you say "It harms God," I will ask you to prove it. So have that ready please.

Originally posted by jiggerj
Once again, if a person has a conscience he will regret (repent) bad choices automatically, but a person without a conscience will not repent because it just isn't within him to do so.

And, once again, if a person has the Holy Spirit (one of the perks of accepting Jesus), that person will have a conscience. That's one of the Holy Spirit's primary functions: to grieve our hearts with guilt when we do wrong. Without the Holy Spirit, only whatever conscience you grew up with will affect you. If you have no problem with stealing, then you aren't a follower of Christ, because stealing harms people, and harming people violates Christ's "Love everyone" commandment.

Yes, it is possible to be a good, kind, honest, loving person with a good conscience even if you don't have the Holy Spirit. But that ain't gonna save you from whatever sins you do commit, and not even the Dalai Lama can avoid committing them. If he hasn't accepted Christ, his good works will not gain him eternal life. It'll only make people think "What a great guy he is." Jesus is the only way through the veil of flesh into God's kingdom; it doesn't matter how good a person you are.

Originally posted by jiggerj

 

To want a biblical god and a biblical demon means that our purpose is to be the pawns in a game. If people are good, then god gets those pieces. If people are bad, the devil gets them. Who the [SNIP] wants to be nothing more than a game piece?

Consider what happens when a pawn makes it all the way across the board: you can turn it into whatever other piece (besides a king) you want. What pawn wouldn't want to become a queen or a rook? Chess is actually an extremely good analogy for life here and after here. Two opposing armies can't be all kings; pawns are necessary, vital parts of the process even if they can't move backwards. I'm proud to be one of God's pawns. I hate moving backwards, anyway. Forward, upward, that's the desired direction.

Besides; it doesn't matter what we want. Whatever IS is what is. Pawns can sit around all day wanting to be queens, but they ain't. Only reaching the other side of the board will actually gain them that status, and only reaching the kingdom through Christ will gain us what we want.

There can be no free will if the rules are laid out for us. This is a sin, that is not a sin. Free will can only come into play if we can say, "I don't want to play this game," and then not be punished for this choice.

How many laws are in the US Code? Your state's Penal Code? Your city's Municipal Code? Thousands, millions of laws bind all of us... and yet, we still have free will, don't we? Why would God's rules be any different? Anyone can choose to obey them, or not... and besides, there's only one of them: "Love everyone, including God." How hard is that to follow? Free will with that one constraint leaves us a universe of possible actions that won't offend God or Christ or the Holy Spirit or our fellow man.

You're free to say you don't want to play... but the consequences of that decision aren't "punishment" any more than being killed is "punishment" for being run over by a drunk driver. It's merely a consequence, a self-defining rule of nature. Get hit by a car in a pedestrian crosswalk and you die. Die without having accepted Christ and you can't get into the kingdom. There's no functional difference between the two.

Originally posted by Hydroman
Someone without sin had to shed their blood and die for us so that this "almighty" god could have the power to forgive us? Shedding blood = forgiveness of wrong doings? Why? He set that rule up....why? It wasn't enough for someone to ask for forgiveness from the heart? Someone had to die (and of course come back to life to live in heaven for all eternity)?

How is it that puny creatures such as us could offend an almighty god by doing "bad" things? Would this intelligent god not understand why we are the way we are? Would he not have sympathy for us? Instead, he will torture us forever if we can't muster the faith the believe in this particular god? It doesn't make sense.

I think you're also confusing "consequence" with "punishment." If you were making a salad, would you just yank vegetables out of the ground and cut 'em up right into the bowl? Nay; you would first wash them off. Every salad ingredient is fairly filthy after it's done growing, through no fault of its own, so you wash them clean before incorporating them into your salad. God is making a salad in Heaven; he won't accept any lettuce or tomato or bell pepper or mushroom or onion that has dirt all over it. Jesus is the means of cleansing the ingredients, and, for some reason that even I can't explain, only a blood sacrifice does a good enough job of cleaning our souls to make them fit for inclusion in the Heavenly Host. Nobody would be clean enough without Jesus. That's why he set up the rules the way he did: he didn't want dirt or pesticides or worms in his salad.

Not even washing a carrot filled with worms will clean it enough, of course. Those are thrown away into the garbage, or left in the ground to rot and/or create fertilizer for later, hopefully less-rotten produce. And now you know what Hell is. It's not there to torture people. It's God's landfill, eternal separation from the salad to avoid "offending" it, and he had no choice but setting it up that way. What would you do with rotten veggies if you didn't have anywhere to throw them away? This is why we say those who follow Christ are "saved:" because they aren't thrown away.

Incidentally, all those who lived before Jesus were given a chance to follow him after his crucifixion. He preached to them all for three days while he was "dead," in whatever place the souls of the dead "sleep." We might even see Cain in the afterlife, with his sin of murder wiped clean, as long as he was repentant for that and all of his other sins.

If God didn't have sympathy for us, he wouldn't have sent Jesus down here at all. He's our cleanser. And I don't think I can make it any clearer than that.

Originally posted by windword

Why are we here and what is our purpose? What about our free will?

What if a man and woman are in love, but don't want to have children, and therefore use birth control? Is that a "sin" in your eyes too?

How is eating pork, shellfish or wearing mixed fiber clothing unwanted behavior according to "His" standards?

How are you SURE that that guy Moses was led by was THE and THE only GOD?

Why are we here? Read the Bible.

What is our purpose? Ditto.

Free will? An illusion.

Birth control? Maybe a sin, but not a big one...

Pork, shellfish, mixed fibers? God knows better than us.

Moses? Yeah, I'm sure. Again, read the Bible.

Originally posted by Thought Provoker

Originally posted by Lazarus Short
To discover what sin is, read the Law in the Books of Moses.

Lemme just stop you right there. Leviticus was written for Hebrews before Christ came along; it doesn't apply to Gentiles or Christians. If you lived by those laws, you would shun everyone with any physical disability and slaughter your children for back-talking you. Wanna know what happened? Here you go:

Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not according to the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was their Husband, says the Lord.

- Jeremiah 31:31-32

The House of Judah is the Jewish tribe that gave rise to Jesus Christ. He is "the new covenant." Therefore, Christians are not bound by the "old covenant," and not bound by the Mosaic Law (Leviticus). Any of it!

Any actions which are contrary to the fulfillment of our reason for being here are sins. Consider the way God designed us to reproduce: sex. He blessed and initiated the man-woman relationship known as marriage, by which we multiply and replenish the earth with more of ourselves.

So you know why we're here, then? Clearly it isn't to reproduce; Adam and Eve never had a kid before they were thrown out of the garden (and thus, procreation was not one of the purposes of their marriage, and yes, they were definitely married before the expulsion, by God himself). So why do humans exist? Please share.

I could mention many more examples such as murder, stealing, lies, etc.

Those are all actions that harm someone else against their will. Getting a tattoo harms you a bit, but it's not against your will, so the tattoo artist is blameless. Who do two men in a committed, loving relationship harm? And if you say "It harms God," I will ask you to prove it. So have that ready please.

OK, Bucko, you want to throw down the gauntlet? Fine!

First, the Law is how we know of sin. Paul said as much himself.

Second, the Lawgiver (not Moses) was YHWH, Yahweh, or as most Bibles render it the LORD. YHWH, if you plug in the very ancient pictographic meanings of the letters, means "Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand," or in fact, it is Jesus. He laid down the Law, the first covenant, the second covenant, and now allows you, me, everyone, to live by Grace (unmerited favor).

For Adam & Eve, they were designed and made to reproduce, and whether they had kids before or after the expulsion from the garden is just muddying the waters. So why are we here? I think we are God's hobby, if that word is adequate. He made us to fellowship with Him, and to make that happen, He will glorify us: Christ in you, the hope of Glory.

As to the rest, I have already demonstrated that to deviate from God's design and purpose dishonors the design and defeats the purpose. You say to me to prove that that hurts God? Get real, read the Law, read the sayings of Jesus and see what God likes and what He dislikes. As far as I am concerned, the burden of proof is still on you.

Originally posted by Thought Provoker

Originally posted by jiggerj
Once again, if a person has a conscience he will regret (repent) bad choices automatically, but a person without a conscience will not repent because it just isn't within him to do so.

And, once again, if a person has the Holy Spirit (one of the perks of accepting Jesus), that person will have a conscience. That's one of the Holy Spirit's primary functions: to grieve our hearts with guilt when we do wrong. Without the Holy Spirit, only whatever conscience you grew up with will affect you. If you have no problem with stealing, then you aren't a follower of Christ, because stealing harms people, and harming people violates Christ's "Love everyone" commandment.

Yes, it is possible to be a good, kind, honest, loving person with a good conscience even if you don't have the Holy Spirit. But that ain't gonna save you from whatever sins you do commit, and not even the Dalai Lama can avoid committing them. If he hasn't accepted Christ, his good works will not gain him eternal life. It'll only make people think "What a great guy he is." Jesus is the only way through the veil of flesh into God's kingdom; it doesn't matter how good a person you are.

Sorry love, your thoughts are too far gone for me. But, I do think I know why some of you religious folk can't see the absurdities in your beliefs. I'll probably start a thread on it later. Enjoy your stay here at ATS.

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
I think you're also confusing "consequence" with "punishment." If you were making a salad, would you just yank vegetables out of the ground and cut 'em up right into the bowl? Nay; you would first wash them off. Every salad ingredient is fairly filthy after it's done growing, through no fault of its own, so you wash them clean before incorporating them into your salad.

You don't have to wash them to eat them. It's just a convenience. I could eat them with dirt on them, and I won't get sick. It just won't taste as good, but I could do it.

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
God is making a salad in Heaven; he won't accept any lettuce or tomato or bell pepper or mushroom or onion that has dirt all over it. Jesus is the means of cleansing the ingredients, and, for some reason that even I can't explain, only a blood sacrifice does a good enough job of cleaning our souls to make them fit for inclusion in the Heavenly Host. Nobody would be clean enough without Jesus. That's why he set up the rules the way he did: he didn't want dirt or pesticides or worms in his salad.

Why would that hurt an almighty god? Why does he even need a salad?

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
Not even washing a carrot filled with worms will clean it enough, of course.

But there are animals that will eat it. We're just picky. In a survival situation, it would be eaten worms and all.

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
Those are thrown away into the garbage, or left in the ground to rot and/or create fertilizer for later, hopefully less-rotten produce. And now you know what Hell is. It's not there to torture people. It's God's landfill, eternal separation from the salad to avoid "offending" it, and he had no choice but setting it up that way. What would you do with rotten veggies if you didn't have anywhere to throw them away? This is why we say those who follow Christ are "saved:" because they aren't thrown away.

If I were an almighty god, I would understand how those vegetables became rotten. I would have known they would have become rotten to begin with and would not have let them exist. But if I chose to let them exist, I would know that it wasn't their fault they became rotten. I would have the power to change them and fix them. But, we aren't inanimate objects with no feelings. If this god is real, why doesn't he show himself to us? Let us see him and really know him instead of having to guess by using faith? I've seen people, over and over, use their faith in this god and speak on his behalf, then be totally WRONG. How can that be? And how do they know if they've ever heard this god? I've seen people who've been christians for decades do this. If they can't discern their god's voice from their own thoughts, can anyone?

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
Incidentally, all those who lived before Jesus were given a chance to follow him after his crucifixion. He preached to them all for three days while he was "dead," in whatever place the souls of the dead "sleep." We might even see Cain in the afterlife, with his sin of murder wiped clean, as long as he was repentant for that and all of his other sins.

If they were asleep, why did he need to preach to them? Why not let them rest? What purpose did this serve? Why don't we ALL get to see Jesus and let him preach to us physically?

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
If God didn't have sympathy for us, he wouldn't have sent Jesus down here at all. He's our cleanser. And I don't think I can make it any clearer than that.

Can you prove that this character truly existed?

reply to post by Lazarus Short

Ephesians 2:13-16, Amplified Bible:
But now in Christ Jesus, you who once were [so] far away, through (by, in) the blood of Christ have been brought near. For He is [Himself] our peace (our bond of unity and harmony). He has made us both [Jew and Gentile] one [body], and has broken down (destroyed, abolished) the hostile dividing wall between us, By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace. And [He designed] to reconcile to God both [Jew and Gentile, united] in a single body by means of His cross, thereby killing the mutual enmity and bringing the feud to an end.

Same verses from the NIV :
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Or do you prefer King James?
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby

Still want to keep persisting in your belief that Christians are bound by Leviticus? If so, you don't believe scripture... and I'll have to wonder why you're fighting this hard to support falsehoods.

Originally posted by Hydroman
You don't have to wash them to eat them. It's just a convenience. I could eat them with dirt on them, and I won't get sick.

Missing the point. The salad was a parable, allegory, analogy, and an imperfect one (because I'm an imperfect human and I came up with it).

Why would that (dirty veggies) hurt an almighty god? Why does he even need a salad?

God doesn't "need" the allegorical salad (us). He wants us. We're his creations, his children; he didn't create us for no reason. We exist to eventually become his best friends, his companions. Why did Tom Hanks create "Wilson" while shipwrecked on that island in "Cast Away?" Because he was the only person there. He was lonely. And yes, that's another imperfect allegory. Don't think literally; think with your heart. Wouldn't you create some companionship if you were all alone in the world and had the ability to do so?

But that's not all. You wouldn't want jerks as your companions, would you, but you would want them to have free will because only then would they have the ability to surprise you, entertain you. It is up to us to use our free will to become worthy companions; if someone chooses to be a dick instead, God isn't going to want them. He only wants perfection, and nobody's perfect, but that's why...

If I were an almighty god, I would understand how those vegetables became rotten. I would have known they would have become rotten to begin with and would not have let them exist. But if I chose to let them exist, I would know that it wasn't their fault they became rotten. I would have the power to change them and fix them.

...he DID put into place the means to change and fix us, because he does have that power. That means is Jesus. Christ will make us perfect. Without Christ, God's entire plan would bear no "fruit" whatsoever. (Or vegetables.) Doesn't this make sense to you?

And how do they know if they've ever heard this god? I've seen people who've been christians for decades do this. If they can't discern their god's voice from their own thoughts, can anyone?

Ah. I myself have struggled with this... then I gave up attempting any such discernment. I now assume that all of my thoughts are my own. But my feelings... those are the Holy Spirit. If I feel that something I'm contemplating is not correct, I don't believe it. I'll get "a bad feeling" about it. And if something feels "right" to me, I will believe it. That's how God communicates with us; not through words, but emotions.

If they were asleep, why did he need to preach to them? Why not let them rest? What purpose did this serve? Why don't we ALL get to see Jesus and let him preach to us physically?

Sentence 1: Because they never had the chance to choose to accept Christ.
2: They needed that chance for the same reason we do.
3: The same purpose as it serves today.
4: Because that would force you into believing in God and Christ, overriding your free will. You have to willingly choose to believe in order to be acceptable, because it means You Want To Be A Good Person, so badly that you're willing to sacrifice your own happiness, time, money, etc, in the service of others. If you sacrifice such things for others, even more will be given you to make up for it. If you selfishly squander such things, everything you do have will eventually be taken away.

Can you prove that this character truly existed?

Of course not (if you meant God); that, again, would defeat the purpose by removing our free will to believe in him or not. Look. You've clearly already chosen not to believe. What will you accomplish by continuing to berate me about this? You're only wasting your time and mine. I'm only here to spread the message. Like the Official 9/11 Story, everyone is free to believe it or not... but only one option is TRUTH. Decide.

reply to post by Lazarus Short

Second, the Lawgiver (not Moses) was YHWH, Yahweh, or as most Bibles render it the LORD. YHWH, if you plug in the very ancient pictographic meanings of the letters, means "Behold the Nail, Behold the Hand," or in fact, it is Jesus.

Too much Chuck Missler! Not enough Meru Foundation. www.meru.org...

The nail and the hand, my dear brother, is the symbol of the "architect" the builder of the "house." It specifically relates to the 2nd letter of the Hebrew alphebet "Bet."

The Hebrew word (bet) means house or tent as well as family. A common designation for a family is to identify the “house” of the family patriarch such as in “The house of Jacob”.
www.ancient-hebrew.org...

Yahweh, YHWH, is NOT the creator god mentioned in the first chapter of Genesis. He is not the creator, he is the patriarch of the house of Jacob.

Deuteronomy 32:8 (From the Dead Sea Scrolls)
"When El Elyon gave to the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of men, he fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. For Yahweh's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance."
fuzzyquark.comxa.com...

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
God doesn't "need" the allegorical salad (us). He wants us. We're his creations, his children; he didn't create us for no reason. We exist to eventually become his best friends, his companions. Why did Tom Hanks create "Wilson" while shipwrecked on that island in "Cast Away?" Because he was the only person there. He was lonely. And yes, that's another imperfect allegory. Don't think literally; think with your heart. Wouldn't you create some companionship if you were all alone in the world and had the ability to do so?

So, the millions of angels he created didn't give him enough company?

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
But that's not all. You wouldn't want jerks as your companions, would you, but you would want them to have free will because only then would they have the ability to surprise you, entertain you. It is up to us to use our free will to become worthy companions; if someone chooses to be a dick instead, God isn't going to want them. He only wants perfection, and nobody's perfect, but that's why...

Why does an almighty god need entertainment? How can we surprise him? Doesn't he know everything, past, present, future?

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
...he DID put into place the means to change and fix us, because he does have that power. That means is Jesus. Christ will make us perfect. Without Christ, God's entire plan would bear no "fruit" whatsoever. (Or vegetables.) Doesn't this make sense to you?

No, it doesn't. Where is this Jesus Christ? How do I know he is real? How can he fix me if I don't believe he exists?

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
Ah. I myself have struggled with this... then I gave up attempting any such discernment. I now assume that all of my thoughts are my own. But my feelings... those are the Holy Spirit. If I feel that something I'm contemplating is not correct, I don't believe it. I'll get "a bad feeling" about it. And if something feels "right" to me, I will believe it. That's how God communicates with us; not through words, but emotions.

Oh, so he communicates with you through emotions...not words. Is that how it worked with Moses, the prophets, etc.? He didn't communicate with words? Is that how he communicated with the people of the N.T.? I don't see evidence for that. It's always with words, not emotions.

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
Sentence 1: Because they never had the chance to choose to accept Christ.

...and they were just fine. They were asleep.

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
2: They needed that chance for the same reason we do.

Why? What if they didn't accept? What happened to them?

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
4: Because that would force you into believing in God and Christ, overriding your free will.

Oh, so when Jesus went and preached to those people who were dead, he overrode their free will? When god showed up to Moses, he overrode Moses's free will? When god showed up to Jonah, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, etc. he overrode their free will? If he did, then what's the big deal? If he didn't then he can do the same for us...

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
You have to willingly choose to believe in order to be acceptable, because it means You Want To Be A Good Person, so badly that you're willing to sacrifice your own happiness, time, money, etc, in the service of others. If you sacrifice such things for others, even more will be given you to make up for it. If you selfishly squander such things, everything you do have will eventually be taken away.

I can see and hear President Obama, therefore I know he exists. That doesn't mean I like what he says. See, my free will still exists. If Jesus showing up to me takes away my free will, then he took away everyone's free will in the N.T. to whom he appeared.

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
Of course not (if you meant God); that, again, would defeat the purpose by removing our free will to believe in him or not.

No, it wouldn't. It didn't for all those in the bible, why would it us?

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
Look. You've clearly already chosen not to believe.

True, you know why? Because you can't prove him to be real. Why would I believe then? Do you believe in Zeus? If not, why not? Do you believe in Allah? If you don't you'll be punished for being an infidel.

reply to post by Hydroman

So, the millions of angels he created didn't give him enough company?

They aren't "real people." Angels are like robots, servants; they have free will, but they don't have God's spirit "illuminating" them like we do. (Different power source, so to speak.) They can't join with God like we can. They have a different function. I could quote corroborating scripture, or mention how much Satan (a former angel) wishes he had a soul and thus a chance at eternal life, but you don't believe the Bible any more than Bill Maher does and I don't know of any other source of information on angels.

Why does an almighty god need entertainment?

Well, maybe it's not for entertainment. Maybe he wants people with free will to choose to worship him. I'm not God; all I can do is guess at his reasons for doing things. Making him laugh or keeping him company or praising him are all that make sense to me... but I'm only human.

How can he (Jesus) fix me if I don't believe he exists?

Now that is "hitting the nail on the head." (Believe vs. Follow confusion, too... see farther below... but he won't fix you if you won't follow him.)

Is that how he communicated with the people of the N.T.? I don't see evidence for that. It's always with words, not emotions.

I can't recall any instances of God himself talking directly to anyone at any point in the New Testament. Angels and Jesus are the only divine speakers there. I could be wrong. Only human. But if God chooses to communicate with someone verbally, he certainly can. Adam, Eve, Enoch, Noah, Moses, it's a big list. I'm not saying nobody hears him directly these days; I'm saying the Holy Spirit inspires us non-verbally (me, at least). If he wanted to make me hear his voice, I would. I just haven't heard him speak to me with words. Anyway, most people who claim to have heard him speak these days are... less than trustworthy, let's say. David Koresh springs to mind... and George W. Bush...

...and they were just fine. They were asleep.

But they won't stay asleep forever. I'm not even sure "asleep" has the same implications as "unconscious." That's just the word Jesus used to describe their current state (if the translation's right).

What if they didn't accept? What happened to them?

Nothing yet... but on Judgement Day, the same thing that'll happen to everyone else: judgement.

Oh, so when Jesus went and preached to those people who were dead, he overrode their free will?

(Believe vs. Follow confusion, see below...)

When god showed up to Moses, he overrode Moses's free will?

(Believe vs. Follow confusion, see below...)

If Jesus showing up to me takes away my free will, then he took away everyone's free will in the N.T. to whom he appeared.

And vast numbers of people chose not to believe he was God's son despite believing he was a real person; yes, I see your point. Hmmmm. Evil people would've chosen to shun him; good people would've chosen to follow him... Apparently I've been using the wrong terminology all this time. Instead of "...free will to choose to believe in him," maybe I should've been saying "...free will to choose to follow him." An example: If your doctor tells you you need a heart valve transplant or you're going to die in a month, believing him won't save your life. You have to follow his advice and get the surgery. The choice is to "follow" or not, not "believe" or not. I hope it makes more sense now (and it's why I've omitted the Obama stuff above; same issue... but I agree: massively annoying man. If indeed he is human.)

Do you believe in Zeus?

I have no reason not to. But, same thing as I cleared up above: I might believe in him, but I'd never follow him. I wish I'd been wording that right all along... my apologies...

Do you believe in Allah?

Yes. I think Allah is the same guy as Jehovah, actually. If there's a creator, there's only one creator, even if he did create Zeus (who didn't do much creation unless you count procreation). But is the Quran the true inspired word of the one true God, or did others come along later and twist Mohammad's (PBUH) words into what it says now? Beats me. I find the part about men walking on the moon fascinating, myself... but who knows? Iblis does a lot of writing, too.

reply to post by windword


I'll take Chuck. The Meru Foundation has amazing information, but I have to consider the source, and that tells me to keep an eye out for bad theology. You have your biases, I have mine.

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
They aren't "real people." Angels are like robots, servants; they have free will, but they don't have God's spirit "illuminating" them like we do. (Different power source, so to speak.) They can't join with God like we can. They have a different function. I could quote corroborating scripture, or mention how much Satan (a former angel) wishes he had a soul and thus a chance at eternal life, but you don't believe the Bible any more than Bill Maher does and I don't know of any other source of information on angels.

I've never heard any of that before. Angels are like robots, but have free will. That's kind of weird. They don't have god's spirit illuminating them? Whaaaaaat?

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
I can't recall any instances of God himself talking directly to anyone at any point in the New Testament.

He spoke to lots of people when he said, "This is my son in whom I am well pleased." Also, anytime Jesus spoke to someone, it was god speaking to them, if you believe in the trinity.

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
Angels and Jesus are the only divine speakers there. I could be wrong. Only human. But if God chooses to communicate with someone verbally, he certainly can. Adam, Eve, Enoch, Noah, Moses, it's a big list. I'm not saying nobody hears him directly these days; I'm saying the Holy Spirit inspires us non-verbally (me, at least). If he wanted to make me hear his voice, I would. I just haven't heard him speak to me with words.

You said that if he did speak to us in words, it would take away our free will. I showed you that it would not, as he did it all the time in the O.T. He didn't take away their free will.

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
Anyway, most people who claim to have heard him speak these days are... less than trustworthy, let's say. David Koresh springs to mind... and George W. Bush...

Exactly. But the people I know who've said that god spoke to them say it was in their heart. Then, it turns out that what he told them was wrong. They can't even discern their god's voice in their mind from their own thoughts. Don't you think that's weird? Don't you see how confusing it is for an unbeliever like me?

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
Nothing yet... but on Judgement Day, the same thing that'll happen to everyone else: judgement.

What's the judgement?

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
An example: If your doctor tells you you need a heart valve transplant or you're going to die in a month, believing him won't save your life. You have to follow his advice and get the surgery. The choice is to "follow" or not, not "believe" or not. I hope it makes more sense now (and it's why I've omitted the Obama stuff above; same issue... but I agree: massively annoying man. If indeed he is human.)

The difference is that I can see, hear, and talk to this doctor. I can communicate clearly and concisely with him. If I don't understand something he said, I can simply ask for an explanation. It's so much easier speaking with a real person than with someone who's invisible, and who I can't hear or talk to.