Understanding Sin

Welcome, brothers and sisters, to my very first ATS thread. I've been here four years now without making one because I was waiting for there to be something for me to bring up, a worthy topic that needed to be touched upon, something people really needed to learn but hadn't been told yet. And I think I finally have it. Having read the title, you already know what the subject is. Almost nothing is more vital for people to understand than what sin really is, so it can be avoided. To save you time, I will provide the final conclusion first and then prove it if you don't immediately believe it (and since only the Bible can be used to prove it, the proof will only be believed by those who also believe the Bible). That conclusion is this, the true Biblical definition of "Sin" condensed into a sound bite suitable for human attention spans:

"Any conscious decision to act contrary to your own sense of right and wrong."
...and also...
"Anything you do that you then feel guilty about doing."
I've reviewed several past threads about this same subject. Very, very few posters have ever touched on the truth, and I haven't seen anyone get it exactly right. This post comes the closest. (Congrats, Troubleshooter.) It's incomplete, though, because it lacks scriptural proof. You all need to be convinced. So please begin your journey by reading Romans chapter 14 in its entirety. Every word of it. I'll wait.

Done? Good. The payload in that chapter is the phrase "nothing is unclean in itself." If YOU regard something as unclean ("a sin"), then for YOU, and you alone, it is a sin. There is no set-in-stone list of sins, aside from anything that goes against Christ's single commandment: "Love everyone, including God." You know in your heart, if you have the Holy Spirit, that stealing from someone is wrong because it annoys them. You know adultery is wrong because it will annoy someone's spouse. If you willingly and knowingly do something that you know would aggravate someone if they found out about it (whether they do or not), you've sinned, and guilt will start gnawing at you. That guilt is the Holy Spirit. It can comfort and punish. Evil, selfish, Godless people don't have the Holy Spirit, and that's why they have no problem with stealing or murdering or adultering or raping or charging interest on loans or any of the other obvious sins (actions contrary to "Love everyone.")

So what about the unobvious sins? That's why Romans 14 was written. Christians don't consider shaving to be a sin, so for them, shaving is not a sin. They do consider two people of the same gender who love each other a sin, so for them, being gay would be a sin... but that doesn't mean it's a sin for everyone. "Nothing is unclean in itself." If you manage to convince a gay person that being gay is a sin, you have just created in them a desire to be sinful. You've made it unclean for them. If they believe you, they'll start feeling guilty about simply being gay (sexually-active or not), and guilt is what condemns us (just as it condemned Adam and Eve), so you have condemned them. If you had said nothing, that wouldn't be the case. They would be free to be gay without being condemned for it. So in effect, you have "caused them to stumble"... and YOU have sinned because you've harmed them.

There's a lot of scripture that backs me up on this besides Romans 14, by the way:

• John 15:22 (Jesus speaking about the world)... "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin."
  
• Ezekiel 28:15... "You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created until iniquity and guilt were found in you."
  
• Proverbs 11:20... "They who are willfully contrary in heart are extremely disgusting and shamefully vile in the eyes of the Lord."
  
• 1 John 3:18-22... "Children, let us not love with word, nor with tongue, but in deed and in truth. And hereby we shall know that we are of the truth, and shall persuade our hearts before him -- that if our heart condemn us (with guilt), God is greater than our heart and knows all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, we have boldness towards God, and whatsoever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments, and practise the things which are pleasing in his sight."
  
• All of Psalm 15.
  

So that should be enough proof for any Christian, at least. Now for a lengthy diversion as to why nobody believes it... after the ATS-imposed Post Break. (7,500 characters? That's it? Really??)

To continue...

I'm convinced that Satan long ago took over organized Christian religions by infiltrating them with his human minions (and if you think about it, you'll see why he had no need to infiltrate religions that don't believe in Jesus Christ). Why? 2 Corinthians 11:14-15, that's why: "Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness." You can recognize them by their words. These days, "Christian" pastors do almost nothing but tell everyone This is a sin, and That is a sin. If they truly believed scripture, they'd never say such things because they would know that doing that has no effect other than creating, out of thin air, new ways in which people (not just Christians) can sin. Every clean-shaven man standing behind a pulpit and telling people they're still bound by the laws of Leviticus can only be working for Satan, literally. There's no other possibility (except them being totally ignorant of scripture, in which case, they shouldn't be trying to preach at all). Every preacher who says "Being gay is a sin" (or "God hates fags," to coin a phrase) is, knowingly or not, working for Satan. I guarantee it. All it's done is to convince over a billion people to hate those they shouldn't hate.

It isn't all about sex, either. It's also why Catholics believe a man sitting in a little booth can absolve them of sin even though the Bible states unambiguously that only God can absolve sins. Yes, we're supposed to forgive each other for sinning against us, but true and final forgiveness comes only from God. If any Catholic ever truly read the Bible, they'd run away from Catholicism like a spanked poodle. And don't quote John 20:23 at me; that power was granted only to Christ's Disciples. It was a non-transferrable one-off. Peter didn't pass it on to Pope Linus (the second Pope). It's just another way Satan got his hooks into Christ's followers.

Your motivations for doing what you did also enter into the equation. Let me show you how the same action can be either sinful or not sinful with a little example. You're going out to dinner with friends. Your wife appears and asks if her tight jeans make her rear end look huge, which they do. If you have nothing but her interests at heart, you'll tell her "yes" apologetically because you don't want to see her embarrassed. That's not a sin. Telling her "no" even though you know she'll be embarrassed in public will keep her from getting mad at you but it doesn't help her. It's thus selfish and sinful. However, if you tell her "yes" because you like poking fun at how fat she is, it's a sin. And if you tell her "no" because her big posterior is actually beautiful to you, it's not a sin.

The basic point is this: You make the call!

So now perhaps you see why it's so important to not let "men of God" create your system of beliefs. The preachers have been corrupted by Satan so that they can corrupt others by creating more and more things for us to feel guilty about. His lies are the reason the world is a place of bitterness instead of the jewel of the Milky Way. He's why we've suffered for as long as we've existed on Earth, literally. Why would anyone follow him? It'd be like worshiping a scorpion. Those things are evil. Don't be evil. "Whatever you believe about these things, keep between yourself and God." We'll all be a lot happier for it.

And watch this video too, by the way. It'll help. Mark Driscoll is just about the only Christian preacher I've ever found myself agreeing with.

What is moral is what you feel good after, and what is immoral is what you feel bad after.
-Ernest Hemingway

The problem with the teachings of the bible is that it was written a very long time ago by people who were by our standards very uneducated in ways of science and how the Universe actually works and it was written to control the more uneducated masses who for no fault of their own were mostly illiterate and therefore believing everything that their highly educated for the time priests told them.
Not to mention the many books deemed unworthy by Constantine that were cast aside and you get Constantines version of what is right and what is wrong.
I have no problem with the ten commandments for the most part are good rules to live by.
I have problems with people who blindly spout scripture they have been brainwashed to believe.
I agree that the majority of Religous leaders seem to be working for darker forces and certainly not for the good of their parishioners.

reply to post by kudegras

I don't believe science has anything to do with sin. And I've read a whole lot of the Apocryphal books, too; I've seen nothing that suggests I'm wrong about this. As for the Ten Commandments, every single one of them is covered by Christ's One Commandment: "Love everyone, including God." And it isn't the scripture brainwashed people spout that's the real problem; the problem is when they listen to men who twist scripture into meaning whatever they want it to mean and teach that interpretation to others as if it was scripture. That's what brainwashes them, not the scripture itself.

Forget everything you know about scripture and how to interpret it, then read it again with an open mind. You'll be amazed at what you've been missing all these years.

reply to post by Thought Provoker

To be honest I think everyone walking this earth right now has sinned many times if you go by the laws as laid down in the bible.
So Hell is going to get mighty crowded isn't it. I think the best one is do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Live by that rule and I think you should be OK.

reply to post by kudegras

"Do unto others" is just another way to say "Love everyone." It's the only rule to live by. And of course everyone on earth sins, all the time. Hell will indeed be full. Everyone would end up there if not for Jesus' "giving up the Ghost" for us. Even if you do sin, being a willing follower of and believer in Christ will save you from a one-way ticket down the wide and easy path into downtown Hell... but the more you sin, the bigger the burden you place on him and everyone affected by your sin. So the less you do it, the better.

Originally posted by kudegras
I think the best one is do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Live by that rule and I think you should be OK.

Eternity is far too long to just HOPE you are "OK"...

If loving your neighbor was all that was necessary, Jesus' death was for NOTHING.

The Bible is clear that only those whose names are written (by God) in the book of life will be saved.

And He does not write any names there that have not been washed from their sins by the Blood of His Son.

"In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins." -Colossians 1:14

Hebrews 9:22, "...without shedding of blood is no remission. (forgivness )"

“Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot."
-1st Peter 1:18,19

...and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin" (1st John 1:7).

reply to post by Thought Provoker


What I have never got and am afraid never will is how the son of God by being crucified by the Romans for the sins of man exempts man in some way. I mean he would have known his death wasn't permanent after all he is the son of God, and that for a small period of pain (small by his standards as he is immortal) that mankind has been saved.
I dont want to blaspheme but if I knew it was all to be hunky dory later, you can nail me to the cross now.
Because in a couple of days I am going to be as good as Gold.
That story I am afraid, is one that was written to control uneducated people of the time and for some reason is still spoken with revenance today.
I do believe in a creator, and I do believe in living a good life. But the bible contradicts itself left right and centre and I believe has become irrelevant in this day and age.

reply to post by Murgatroid


For my opinion read my above post.
Peace

reply to post by kudegras

After everything is said and done...

We will stand before a living God and ALL of our opinions will mean NOTHING.

reply to post by kudegras

Jesus died without sinning. Therefore, he died while still spiritually connected with God, and Jesus' spirit is still quite alive and well. That makes him a "bridge" between this world, through what he called "the veil of flesh," into God's kingdom. Only those who are without sin can get there, and Jesus bought the right to absolve us of sins and make us worthy to get into God's kingdom by sacrificing his own spirit for our sakes. He was a literal "blood sacrifice" that meant a lot more than sacrificing a ram or a goat. He's "holding the door open" for us, and if we go through him we're washed clean of sin, and can get to salvation. Otherwise not. He's the only way for a sinner to have eternal life with God. If you or I were to try doing the same thing it wouldn't work because we're not sinless.

As for the uneducated people of the time, they weren't even allowed to read the Bible themselves. It was actually illegal under Church law. They could only listen while some "approved" authority figure, like a Pharisee or, later, a Priest, read it to them. There's no telling what twisted blasphemies came out of their mouths.

I'd be happy to analyze any Biblical contradictions you can find for you. Just name them.

Sin is just a tactic religions use to control people through fear and/or guilt. Simple.

The list of sins named in the Bible haven't been updated for centuries.

Sins are an open door to experiences that you may regret, but also they can make you wiser somehow.

Congrats for your first thread.

reply to post by Murgatroid

Fabulous video... but one must believe their life consists of more than the red tape before one will begin to think about their post-Earth existence. There's gonna be a whole lotta really surprised people, come Judgement Day...

Originally posted by SpearMint
Sin is just a tactic religions use to control people through fear and/or guilt. Simple.

You are confusing TRUTH with religion.

They have NOTHING in common.

Originally posted by SpearMint
Sin is just a tactic religions use to control people through fear and/or guilt.

I have no choice but agreeing with that. But consider the semantics. A "religion" is a system of control invented by man. It is not something created by anyone in The Trinity. It therefore cannot help but be flawed, and it can easily be used, like any hammer, to either create or destroy. It's all in the motivations of whoever wields it. Jesus Christ was never meant to be used as a weapon or means of control; that's all man's doing.

Originally posted by Murgatroid

Originally posted by SpearMint
Sin is just a tactic religions use to control people through fear and/or guilt. Simple.

You are confusing TRUTH with religion.

They have NOTHING in common.

I don't understand what you're trying to say. I know religion is nothing to do with truth, but you're saying truth uses sins to control people? That's what religion does, you're contradicting yourself.

Originally posted by Trueman
The list of sins named in the Bible haven't been updated for centuries.

None of the Bible's original manuscripts have been updated for centuries. It's as true now as it's always been... and I'd include most of the Apocrypha in that, especially the Gospel of Thomas.

Sins are an open door to experiences that you may regret, but also they can make you wiser somehow.

We do learn from our mistakes when we choose to... thank God.

Congrats for your first thread.

Thank you. It's fun so far.

reply to post by SpearMint

You're absolutely right. If it is the truth that there is no God, then there is no sin either. Neither is there any hope for anyone after death. You just wink out. But if there is a God, you'd be sacrificing eternal happiness just so you can be right. I've never understood why atheists choose to believe there's no hope, no God, no salvation, no afterlife. Wouldn't you truly (and logically) rather have something to look forward to than a void of non-existence?

Originally posted by SpearMint
Wrong, sins do not exist in Atheism. I know it's counter-intuitive to a religious person, but try to use logic when replying to me.

1) You are NOT speaking to a "religious person"

2) Atheism IS a religion

Which in this case makes YOU the religious person...

Originally posted by Thought Provoker
A "religion" is a system of control invented by man.