Let's talk about REINCARNATION again....by special request.

reply to post by Taunos


Do you care to share any of your own personal experiences with us?

Who are you in this life and what are you here to accomplish?

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Taunos

 

Do you care to share any of your own personal experiences with us?

Who are you in this life and what are you here to accomplish?

I'll make a post later about some experiences (kinda running here, moving to a new job tomorrow). The idea of accomplishment is a bit different. You are not here to reach one single goal, but many all of them through your entire life. Lessons may vary I think, a simple example is the one we said before about the killing. Picture you and a brother going through cycles of revenge killing each other causing suffering to yourselves and your families. When one of you stop the cycle you can say that a goal was achieved, you end the revenge and feel sorry for your brother. That is a huge step, to overcome anger, hate and etc.

Of course you can think that someone could teach you that, but listening is different than feeling it. When you go through something that changes your way of viewing a situation (always changing for the better) you can say something was learned. It is hard to say but the most valuable lessons are the painful ones. Like a son or daughter that does not value his/her mother, but the pain of seeing her pass can change that (PLEASE I'm not saying anyone's mother will die to teach you a lesson).

I can say that seeing my mother fight her whole life alone, raising two children with almost no money taught me how to value her and created a strong bond between my bother and I. She always manages to bring out the best of us, and I'm pretty sure she is only here to help my brother and I.

Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by windword

 

I haven't achieved my goal yet. That goal, I believe, is to remember who I am. Or, for Adjensen, let me put it in a way that would meet his expectation of what reincarnation should be:

To encompass the accumulated memory of my challenges and battles, victories and treasures of experience and the love that I gave and received, and all that I learned about myself, and therefore God.

When I have that, I'll be done with this journey, and on to another one. After all, eternity is a long, long time.

Just so I understand what you're saying, there is no greater purpose for these lives other than an eternity of experiences to discover new things about yourself and the universe around you (which is part of yourself)?

Pretty much. But, in discovering these new things, I am also understanding the nature of god, which is part of myself.

What will you do with eternal life and eternity?

After all of the lives you've lived, what do you still consider your greatest weaknesses?

Fear of heights!

Height = Falling, Success = Failure, Acceptance = Rejection

There is a fear of pursuing these things, because of the opposite possibility.

I have a little anecdote to share;

Many years ago, I met a person - virtually by chance, it seemed.

I looked into this person's eyes, and felt that "BAM!" feeling I've mentioned elsewhere --- a feeling of recognition, and a sort of "whoa!" kind of surprise, and at the same time undeniable "soul shock," I guess you could call it.

I wanted to "connect" with this person on an individual basis;
In the end, my heart was broken by deception, lies, betrayal, theft, inconsistency, and a loss of innocence that eclipsed anything I had ever endured before. A part of me had died; a chunk of my life energy and the love I have to give was gone forever, and what remained was badly beat up.

For years, I was plagued by "intrusive thoughts" about this person every day - yes, YEARS of daily unwanted thoughts - eventually, some days would go by without a memory; and then weeks, and then months, until I finally realized I was "over it." Like an addiction that I had finally overcome completely.

Then one day, like a test, I saw an image of them on the internet. And you know what? I felt nothing. No anger, no heartache, no longing.

At that moment, I knew the lesson was learned. (For me, I doubt for them, though).

I knew I had no more "business" to clear up with that person.
Previous life's unfinished business, now had reached its conclusion, I believe.

Just a little story of mine.

reply to post by adjensen

If you read the page that I cited, which apparently you didn't, you'd see that it's an atheist's argument, predicated on science, not a Christian one based on theology. When I said I'm not basing my objections on Christianity, I mean it -- no, reincarnation is not a part of Christianity, but neither is evolution, and I believe in that, and neither is the prospect of extraterrestrial life, and I think that possible.

The Dalai Lama once said that "If science finds Buddhism to be wrong, then Buddhism must change."

It's the same with Christianity, and many Christians have been able to embrace the concept of evolutionary processes without loosing their faith. Additionally, the Pope has declared that belief in extraterrestrial life is not incompatible with Christianity.

I did read, or at least looked over, the link that you provided. I didn't make the connection that the author was an atheist, but it doesn't matter. The author dismisses personal spiritual experience of pre-existence based on non-spiritual measurements. Until science can prove, one way or the other, the existence of the soul, any conclusion as to the validity of these experiences CAN NOT be patently dismissed.

I'm not some "cookie cutter" Christian or the modern day equivalent of your mother and whatever goofy preacher she followed that believed that a kid who thought she was reincarnated needed an exorcism (aside: I assume that wasn't a Catholic exorcism -- that requires a priest with the permission of Bishop, which wouldn't have been granted in your case, because you clearly weren't "possessed.") My views on God and Christianity are significantly different from most peoples', so please stop painting me with a brush that you reserve for fundamentalists, Pentecostals and other people that you've put into a stereotyped box in your mind.

Please don't take my posts so personally. All kinds of Christians, with significantly different beliefs, including fundamentalists, are participating in this thread, and presenting their brand of beliefs as arguments against the concept of reincarnation. I wonder if some of the Christians that are posting their belief that demons are responsible for past life memories would take their child to a preacher for some sort of exorcism too.

I am using my answers to you to address other's arguments, as well as your's. I'm not painting YOU into a corner or placing YOU in a box.

Science can't prove the supernatural, no, that's beyond its scope. But it can disprove it by demonstrating the natural explanation for something that's claimed to be supernatural, and so far as I've seen, that's generally been the case.

Science can show, by natural explanation, how a tree grows leaves and drops fruit, houses birds and insects, but can't prove that god designed it that way. Science's inability to isolate the supernatural from natural explanation is not prove that the supernatural doesn't exist.

Science can't prove the existence of the soul, which is believed to be supernatural. That doesn't mean that the soul doesn't exist or that it didn't pre-exist.

Again, if reincarnation is real, there should be millions of people who experience it, and yet we have a veritable handful of claims, and those which are investigated, scientifically, rather than superficially, are shown to have, at best, the potential for cultural contamination, meaning that they are useless for scientifically demonstrating that reincarnation is real.

All religious experiences are useless for scientific verification. Millions have claimed to have spiritual experiences and millions HAVE experienced glimpses of reincarnation.

Your argument appeals to truth in numbers. When has there ever been some kind of collective registry for all those who experience past life memories, to record them and and subject them to scrutiny? For the few people, in modern times, that publicly announce their memories, and trot their kids out publicly for scrutiny, there are thousands who keep their revelations privately to themselves.

Your expectation that reincarnation should present accumulated memory, on demand, is YOUR expectation and not a premise of the philosophy and theology behind it.

Yes, it is, and if you go back and read through this thread, I never demanded that anyone agree with me. You believe in it, that's fine, but if you can't answer the question of how anyone is supposed to benefit, improve or grow without accumulated memory, then my objection still stands as a valid one.

Your question has been answered, but you choose to reject the answer. In the philosophy and theology of reincarnation, the veil of forgetfulness, is a necessary part of re-birth.

Buddha reached enlightenment WHEN he remembered all his incarnations as one.

reply to post by wildtimes


Actually, I thought that was the exact experience that every woman was forced to face in their lifetime, whether one life or many!

reply to post by wildtimes


It is possible that said person was your pair, but they messed up and now they have been removed.

reply to post by windword

I wonder if some of the Christians that are posting their belief that demons are responsible for past life memories would take their child to a preacher for some sort of exorcism too.

NOT! Prayer, maybe. Exorcism, absolutely not.

I think possession cases are rare. I think demons mostly come and go. Probably why most children forget by a certain age.

If I had a child with past memories, I think I would take my child to a psychiatrist first to get a medical professional opinion, join a support group of other parents with similar children, start a whole field of research on my own to find out if there were any common behaviors or traits among the children, and keep going until I could get some kind of sense of a truth.

Has there ever been a study done on the physical commonalities of people who remember past lives?

Originally posted by windword

Science can't prove the existence of the soul, which is believed to be supernatural. That doesn't mean that the soul doesn't exist or that it didn't pre-exist.

Actually, there are those who figure that the soul is natural, not supernatural, but that isn't the point -- science can be used to prove, and disprove, something like "past life memories", because they are observable, which is what the limitation of science is -- it can only address things that are measurable and observable, and someone saying that they had these memories, and validating them is something which is observable.

However, and this is the giant "however" of the discussion, said scientific study is invalid if it cannot establish, without doubt, that there was no cultural contamination, and that's the problem with all of the studies that I've seen, why "reincarnation research" is considered pseudo-science and why none of these reports can be said to do anything other than provide anecdotal evidence.

For the few people, in modern times, that publicly announce their memories, and trot their kids out publicly for scrutiny, there are thousands who keep their revelations privately to themselves.

What is your source for this claim, or that millions have seen "glimpses" of past lives?

Your question has been answered, but you choose to reject the answer. In the philosophy and theology of reincarnation, the veil of forgetfulness, is a necessary part of re-birth.

What you are describing is a process -- do you believe that there is such a process? Who administers it, and to what end?

As to whether it addresses my question, it does not, it merely explains why almost no one has these memories. If someone lives one life and is a serial rapist, and in their next life they're a woman who is raped, how is any connection made between the two lives if the woman doesn't remember being a rapist and the rapist doesn't remember being raped?

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword

Science can't prove the existence of the soul, which is believed to be supernatural. That doesn't mean that the soul doesn't exist or that it didn't pre-exist.

Actually, there are those who figure that the soul is natural, not supernatural, but that isn't the point -- science can be used to prove, and disprove, something like "past life memories", because they are observable, which is what the limitation of science is -- it can only address things that are measurable and observable, and someone saying that they had these memories, and validating them is something which is observable.

However, and this is the giant "however" of the discussion, said scientific study is invalid if it cannot establish, without doubt, that there was no cultural contamination, and that's the problem with all of the studies that I've seen, why "reincarnation research" is considered pseudo-science and why none of these reports can be said to do anything other than provide anecdotal evidence.

This is an invalid argument because reincarnation proposes that the soul often reincarnates back into the same culture, the same area, the same family and even the same household.

Past life memories can only observable within a certain time period and with certain facts being available. Who could prove that I hadn't once lived as a whale, as bird or a tiger? Who could prove that my memories of living the life of a friar in 16th century France, with my father as one of my monastery brothers, are false?

I could claim that I am Alice B. Person, who died in 1949 of a heart attack and was buried in my favorite yellow dress at XXX Cemetery. I could name my husband and my children and describe my house and kitchen. That still wouldn't prove that I was Alice, and wasn't visited by Alice's ghost or hadn't overheard some random person talking about Alice and her family at a diner?

For the few people, in modern times, that publicly announce their memories, and trot their kids out publicly for scrutiny, there are thousands who keep their revelations privately to themselves.

What is your source for this claim, or that millions have seen "glimpses" of past lives?

There is no shortage of people who write post, articles, books and produce documentaries presenting their own and other's claims of past life memories, in modern times. There are generations of Tibetan Monks and devout religious leaders and followers, through the ages, who have proclaimed knowledge of pre-existence. There is no religion on the planet that, through some sect, hasn't embraced the concept of reincarnation.

The longevity, persistence, cultural agreement and sheer numbers of proponents to the concept of reincarnation that permeated throughout the history civilization, enduring through wars and natural disasters, dictates that millions of individuals would have identified certain personal experiences as reincarnative revelations.

Your question has been answered, but you choose to reject the answer. In the philosophy and theology of reincarnation, the veil of forgetfulness, is a necessary part of re-birth.

What you are describing is a process -- do you believe that there is such a process? Who administers it, and to what end?

Yes, I think that reincarnation is a process. The question of who administers it is answered through an individual's religious bend, whether it be Buddhist, Hindu, Sikh, Jewish or Christian, the question of why we are here and what our purpose is, is always a personal justification of our belief in god or a supreme being or conscience higher awareness.

As to whether it addresses my question, it does not, it merely explains why almost no one has these memories. If someone lives one life and is a serial rapist, and in their next life they're a woman who is raped, how is any connection made between the two lives if the woman doesn't remember being a rapist and the rapist doesn't remember being raped?

Again, your lack of testimonial sources and access to people who "believe" is limited by your environment, your willingness and desire to investigate the phenomena, and your pre-disposed dismissal of reincarnation and proclaimed memories to be invalid.

reply to post by Deetermined


This wasn't your typical 'we broke up "broken heart",' though. I've had those before...
this was a gut-wrenching, devastating wrecking ball that slammed into my very being and almost destroyed me.

I've had several long-term, committed relationships; I've had heartaches, and regrets, and sorrow - but this, Dee, this was above and way beyond the pale of a typical 'broken heart.'
This was a SOUL-PIERCING experience; the influence of which affected EVERY ASPECT of my life, for a long, long time. It messed with my entire family; and there are still scars, make no mistake.

I won't go into all the details here; I've already edited out the parts that were "superfluous" to my point.

I've known PLENTY of women who have never endured that sort of 'spiritual assault'; break-ups, sure, lost loves, yes...but this scale....was something far different.
If you want to talk about demons, well - this is the one anecdote I might use to consider it. Even so, I don't think the person was possessed, nor a demon, just incapable of reciprocating real love (let alone recognizing it), and was full of a self-destructive self-loathing that had nothing to do with me IN THIS LIFETIME...
but somehow I got sucked into it all the same.

That "somehow" seems to me, is because we were both carrying baggage - our own, but also a bit of each other's -
and we HAD TO DO THIS to get past the ...

the...whatever it was. To break through to the surface and finish up what had been a long-standing mess.

reply to post by Deetermined

I think possession cases are rare. I think demons mostly come and go. Probably why most children forget by a certain age.

Ghaa!!! *facepalm*

No! Nonono, the memories are fleeting because, like many, many memories in this ONE lifetime, they simply fade into the "here and now" of survival, and growth.

These are innocent little kids. They are not "possessed" - !!
the 'latent memory' is most intense as the child reaches total self-awareness in THIS lifetime; but then, because the agony would be too overwhelming AND because their current life is demanding (as all lives are) -- and they become "acculturated" to their current circumstances --
they move on.

Peacefully............SEE EDIT:

EDIT: UNTIL THEY RUN INTO A FORMER LIFE ANTAGONIST OR PARTNER. Then it can all blow up in one's face.

reply to post by wildtimes

If you want to talk about demons, well - this is the one anecdote I might use to consider it. Even so, I don't think the person was possessed, nor a demon, just incapable of reciprocating real love (let alone recognizing it), and was full of a self-destructive self-loathing that had nothing to do with me IN THIS LIFETIME...

some people dont really need any demonic help to be what they are.
Yes mostly its past baggage.
But i dont get what you mean completely? Do you mean that you dont believe possession play any part in past life memories?

reply to post by logical7

Do you mean that you dont believe possession play any part in past life memories?

Exactly correct.
No, 'possession' has NOTHING TO DO with past life memories.

But, I want to make it clear to you that "lingering awareness" of a former lifetime is NOT the same as "possession by demons". One can "possess" memories of a past life -- but it's like "possessing" memories of deceased persons, or of photographs; not like "being overtaken by an outside evil entity."

reply to post by jhill76

It is possible that said person was your pair, but they messed up and now they have been removed.

This makes sense to me, but ---
WHY WAS IT I who had to "remove" them?!

They would have continued on with it. I told them, "I'm done." I was told, "You're not done." I said, "Yes, I am."
"Well, can I have a hug?" (approaching me with embrace-arms)

"No, I won't touch you. Get your things and go."

They walked away to get their things (leaving some behind, and TAKING SOME OF MY THINGS AS WELL), also taking the person who they'd brought on this "surprise visit" with them...(I have no idea what sort of relationship they had with this other person).....then came back and said, "You're not done with me," again, and this time "angrily".

I said, "Yes, I am! You hurt me so bad that a part of me died." That last thing I said to them was, "You'll be happy when you learn how to really love someone, and to be honest."

It's important, perhaps, to note that on our first meeting they had told me, "I'll never be happy," and in response, I had asked them to give me a chance to get to know them better. Yeah, well, boy was I wrong!!!

Maybe I was just being stupid and playing into my own "wishes," but, yeah. I had to remove MYSELF from them; THAT was the hard ending of what was a hard relationship....

reply to post by wildtimes


ok, i get you. But the point here is "you dont believe"
but ok we dont have similar beliefs.
I did get another question, considering that the memories are true, doesnt the deistic attitude towards revelation apply to them?
Why promote/believe "a person claiming to have pastlife memories" while refusing "a person claiming to get revelation from God"??
As Paine said, its only revelation to them, a myth to everyone else. Why not the same for these kids?
Edit- by the way, i made the thread on Jinns and posted a link in this thread, hope you saw it.

reply to post by logical7

Why promote/believe "a person claiming to have pastlife memories" while refusing "a person claiming to get revelation from God"??

Because past-life memories are personal - very individual - too personal to be generally applied to everyone...

A "revelation from God" to be held out to the whole world TELLING THEM HOW TO BEHAVE is completely different.

And yes, I did see your thread, and Starred and Flagged it!

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

Why promote/believe "a person claiming to have pastlife memories" while refusing "a person claiming to get revelation from God"??

Because past-life memories are personal - very individual - too personal to be generally applied to everyone...

A "revelation from God" to be held out to the whole world TELLING THEM HOW TO BEHAVE is completely different.

And yes, I did see your thread, and Starred and Flagged it!

thanks! for the SnF, I'l like your comments too.
And about revelation.
you use these stories to claim and believe in reincarnation.
Why not do the same justice to revelation?
To at least be open to the idea that God does communicate to at least some chosen people.
Or you shouldnt believe in reincarnation till you experience personal pastlife memories. Fair?

reply to post by wildtimes

This wasn't your typical 'we broke up "broken heart",' though. I've had those before... this was a gut-wrenching, devastating wrecking ball that slammed into my very being and almost destroyed me.

I hear you.

It was through a similar experience that I truly learned the difference between obsession and love, but it was impossible to tell the difference at the time. When I finally realized it, I was repulsed. When he looked me up 7 years later to ask to get together again, the thought made me want to puke. Needless to say, I never spoke to him again and it took me even more years than that to stop being repulsed by the thought of him and to forgive and forget.

reply to post by wildtimes

These are innocent little kids. They are not "possessed" - !!

As I've stated earlier in this thread, I never thought they were.

I think possession is rare.

Thanks for clarifying why they lose their memories when they mature.