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Let's talk about REINCARNATION again....by special request.

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posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 03:18 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen
 





Could you speak or write Japanese as a young child? Everything else is anecdotal (and again, I don't disagree that you had these memories, just the validity of them,) but if you could remember being Japanese, could you speak or read the language that a Japanese person could? If so, that would be non-anecdotal evidence.


That is not a valid argument to verify the validity of memories. No child is born already knowing how to read or write language. It all has to be learned. People have difficulties remembering what happen a year ago, little alone specific details of a past life in order to satisfy skeptics.

Yes, but in the case of what you're saying, you aren't remembering yourself as a child, but as an adult, so you should be able to "remember" Japanese, the same as you would remember religious or cultural aspects of that life.


You're just repeating the same argument that the memory of a past life should be complete and coherent. But, the philosophy or theology of reincarnation doesn't work that way. We have glimpses of meaningful portions, not lucid memories of an entire life.

My memories were mostly of my garden and my daily devotion to Buddha.


Memories are tricky things -- there's no reason to think it impossible that, some time prior to those experiences, you were exposed to some aspects of Asian culture without remembering it happening. You didn't say that you "remembered Buddhism", rather that you made a statue that resembled Buddha, which was a bit of a cultural fad in the 50s and 60s here in the US (I remember my Dad having some Buddhist stuff sitting around the house when I grew up.) It seems odd that you'd associate Buddha with Japanese religion, when he plays a pretty minor part in Shinto, the dominant Japanese religion.


I didn't associate Buddhism with Japan, I remembered being a Buddhist in Japan. I think you're marginalizing the influence of Buddhism on Japanese culture and it's history. Buddhism was not contradictory to the Emperor's imperiality.

I didn't make a statue that resembled Buddha. I set out and made a statue of Buddha. I can still see it my mind, and my mind it was a perfect replica of the statue that I knew. I made with him curly hair, like this:



Not this:



Which is a Chinese Buddha.

I have told you very little of my memories of that life time in this thread. I'll just add that when I died I was young and very wealthy. I was married to man that wasn't faithful to me, and carried on with concubines on an equal playing field as me. That made me mad, sad and depressed. I prayed to Buddha for happiness and fertility in my marriage, and wrote little notes on paper that I left for him. I prayed for a son so that my husband would respect me more.

We were on a fancy ship, around 1920ish, when it was hit by a rouge wave that capsized the ship. My husband was in the dining room and I was using the bathroom below, at the time. I remember the boat turning upside down and sewage on my head in the tiny cabin, before being overtaken by water and drowning.

I'm not offering my story as proof. My personal experience is only an anecdote of western Christian suppression and ignorance. And that these memories are not as rare as one may think, but are ignored or misunderstood for various reasons. We are trained to reject them as evil or absurd.

I assure you that there was no Buddhist or Japanese influence in my environment at that time. I started relaying these stories at a very young age, from 3-9 years of age. I was very sheltered in our white Christian supremacy. It was my persistence that made my mother blow things out of proportion.


Combined with a Mom that sounds like she blew things out of proportion pretty easily, it just seems possible that these memories were grounded in something other than having actually been a Japanese woman in a previous life. Again, I believe that you had these memories, and the experiences that you described really happened, I just question whether reincarnation is the only explanation, and if it's not, whether it's the most likely.


You will always be able to poke holes in one's story. It's just that there are too many stories, heard and unheard to debunk them all. Just like any other spiritual revelation, it's subjective to the believer.


]
edit on 8-1-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)




posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 03:38 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


Thank you for your detail. As I said, I believe that you had these memories. I just think that they come from a different source than you do. The fact that you recall such rich detail but didn't know anything about the language is the non-anecdotal evidence at hand -- while one could make up stories about another life based on incidental cultural influences, or remember them differently at age 50 than they actually existed at age 5, is quite plausible, but knowing a foreign language without exposure would be quite another thing (yes, I'm familiar with xenoglossy -- no I don't believe in it, lol.)


I assure you that there was no Buddhist or Japanese influence in my environment at that time.

This, however, I disagree with -- you have no way of remembering all aspects of your life at, say, the age of three, so you can't say that there was no chance of "cultural contamination", because you have no way of knowing that. All you can do is relate what you remember, and you don't remember any, but that doesn't mean that there weren't any.


My personal experience is only an anecdote of western Christian suppression and ignorance. And that these memories are not as rare as one may think, but are ignored or misunderstood for various reasons. We are trained to reject them as evil or absurd.

I also disagree with this -- I've never known anyone "in real life" who claimed memory of past lives, and I've spent a lot of time with some pretty esoteric characters over the years, and the lack of hard scientific evidence that validates the claims of those indicates that I'm not unusual. The more practical explanation is that hardly anyone has these memories.

Christianity doesn't control the world -- if memories of past lives were real, millions would have them, there would be hard evidence that they are valid, and there would be no question of the fact. Blaming Christianity doesn't do anything to further your case, sorry.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 04:06 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 





Thank you for your detail. As I said, I believe that you had these memories. I just think that they come from a different source than you do. The fact that you recall such rich detail but didn't know anything about the language is the non-anecdotal evidence at hand -- while one could make up stories about another life based on incidental cultural influences, or remember them differently at age 50 than they actually existed at age 5, is quite plausible, but knowing a foreign language without exposure would be quite another thing (yes, I'm familiar with xenoglossy -- no I don't believe in it, lol.)

This, however, I disagree with -- you have no way of remembering all aspects of your life at, say, the age of three, so you can't say that there was no chance of "cultural contamination", because you have no way of knowing that. All you can do is relate what you remember, and you don't remember any, but that doesn't mean that there weren't any.


I did actually learn to speak and write in Japanese as a young child, and had a penpal from Japan who was trying to learn English. She wrote to me in English, and I wrote back to her in Japanese. Coincidentally, my daughter is fluent in Japanese.

Whatever influence that you suppose was in my environment that was of a Buddhist or Japanese nature was not prevalent enough for me to remember as an adult, but the memories of this Japanese "person" are vivid. It should also be noted that this is only one of many, many memories of many other lifetimes.



I also disagree with this -- I've never known anyone "in real life" who claimed memory of past lives, and I've spent a lot of time with some pretty esoteric characters over the years, and the lack of hard scientific evidence that validates the claims of those indicates that I'm not unusual.


Funny how I seem to have met and worked with so many? Maybe you don't know that many kinds of people after all, or maybe they don't feel safe enough to open up to you, or no opportunity was presented. Start a thread here on ATS asking people about their memories, and I guarantee you that your statistics will change!


The more practical explanation is that hardly anyone has these memories. Christianity doesn't control the world -- if memories of past lives were real, millions would have them, there would be hard evidence that they are valid, and there would be no question of the fact. Blaming Christianity doesn't do anything to further your case, sorry.


Christianity has been in charge of the controls of the western mindset enough to offset any honest research into the subject. It has vilified reincarnation, spiritualism, channeling, yoga meditations, etc. citing these systems as being of Satan. I blame Christianity generally for the mockery, suppression of and oppression of those who practice and believe in such systems, in the western world.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by windword

I also disagree with this -- I've never known anyone "in real life" who claimed memory of past lives, and I've spent a lot of time with some pretty esoteric characters over the years, and the lack of hard scientific evidence that validates the claims of those indicates that I'm not unusual.


Funny how I seem to have met and worked with so many? Maybe you don't know that many kinds of people after all, or maybe they don't feel safe enough to open up to you, or no opportunity was presented. Start a thread here on ATS asking people about their memories, and I guarantee you that your statistics will change!

Apart from one person, I don't consider that I know anyone on ATS "in real life"


That said -- there's no point to it. Just asking people to pipe up is hardly a scientific survey, and as I've said over and over, I believe that people have what they believe are memories, but they are the result of dreams, fantasies, escapist and coping scenarios, etc. We know for a fact that people have all of these, but we don't know for a fact that people remember past lives, so it is highly unlikely that this is what's happening.



The more practical explanation is that hardly anyone has these memories. Christianity doesn't control the world -- if memories of past lives were real, millions would have them, there would be hard evidence that they are valid, and there would be no question of the fact. Blaming Christianity doesn't do anything to further your case, sorry.


Christianity has been in charge of the controls of the western mindset enough to offset any honest research into the subject.

Again, you're projecting your own dislike of Christianity where it doesn't belong -- there is science in the eastern world, and in the secular western world, so where are the scientific studies and millions of people testifying to reincarnation in those areas?

Unless you want to claim that reincarnation stopped about 40 years ago, you need to account for a reason that there is no credible evidence for it -- the "blame Christianity" screed lost its credibility quite a while ago.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 06:00 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword

I also disagree with this -- I've never known anyone "in real life" who claimed memory of past lives, and I've spent a lot of time with some pretty esoteric characters over the years, and the lack of hard scientific evidence that validates the claims of those indicates that I'm not unusual.


Funny how I seem to have met and worked with so many? Maybe you don't know that many kinds of people after all, or maybe they don't feel safe enough to open up to you, or no opportunity was presented. Start a thread here on ATS asking people about their memories, and I guarantee you that your statistics will change!

Apart from one person, I don't consider that I know anyone on ATS "in real life"


Well, I suppose that spending 27 years on Maui and meeting so many so called spiritualist leaders and pilgrims that came to the island for some spiritual retreat or conference, puts me in a different category of influence. Reincarnation was mainstream spiritualism in my circles and I worked with many people exploring the subject.


That said -- there's no point to it. Just asking people to pipe up is hardly a scientific survey, and as I've said over and over, I believe that people have what they believe are memories, but they are the result of dreams, fantasies, escapist and coping scenarios, etc. We know for a fact that people have all of these, but we don't know for a fact that people remember past lives, so it is highly unlikely that this is what's happening.


I don't know how one would set out to perform a valid survey to verify the pre-existence of the soul and reincarnation. I can't see that many parents would want to subject their children to such scrutiny, evaluation and public exposure. And, as has already been put forth, reincarnation theory explains why the coherent memory of facts and patterns of the previous individual's life may be non-essential or even detrimental to their spiritual growth.




The more practical explanation is that hardly anyone has these memories. Christianity doesn't control the world -- if memories of past lives were real, millions would have them, there would be hard evidence that they are valid, and there would be no question of the fact. Blaming Christianity doesn't do anything to further your case, sorry.



Christianity has been in charge of the controls of the western mindset enough to offset any honest research into the subject.

Again, you're projecting your own dislike of Christianity where it doesn't belong -- there is science in the eastern world, and in the secular western world, so where are the scientific studies and millions of people testifying to reincarnation in those areas?

Unless you want to claim that reincarnation stopped about 40 years ago, you need to account for a reason that there is no credible evidence for it -- the "blame Christianity" screed lost its credibility quite a while ago.


It's erroneous to say there is no credible evidence, especially since you refuse to review the many documentaries presented on the subject. There is just as much credible evidence for the miracles that Christians assert as evidence of their religion as there is for reincarnation. Reincarnation pre-dates Christiantiy by thousands of years, and was taught by some very high minds, including Pythagoras, Benjamin Franklin, and Freidrich Nietzsche.

Reincarnation didn't stop happening because of Christianity. But it would be dishonest to say anything other than that for over 1000 years, Christianity waged war on any kind of acknowledgment of spiritual revelation that hasn't been pre-ordained by Christian scripture. I can think of no other religion that has put forth so much effort to squash alternative thoughts and claims of personal revelations, other than Christianity. There is no other way to prove reincarnation other than by personal revelation.



edit on 8-1-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 06:19 PM
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Originally posted by windword
It's erroneous to say there is no credible evidence, especially since you refuse to review the many documentaries presented on the subject.

I long ago determined a policy for myself that I would generally not watch videos. Typically, they're insanely long and the relevant information could have been passed on with a short post. They tend to be directed at people who are passive, not critical thinkers, and depending on the time of day, I am often not able to watch them anyway.

Finally, I appreciate people who find sources, cite them, and allow me to do my own digging from them. Videos are usually "talking heads" who present opinion as fact, are asked the questions I wouldn't and not asked the ones that I would, and rarely actually cite a source that you can go look up.


There is just as much credible evidence for the miracles that Christians assert as evidence of their religion as there is for reincarnation.

Know what? I don't really believe in miracles either, not as presented in the present age, at least.


Reincarnation pre-dates Christiantiy by thousands of years, and was taught by some very high minds, including Pythagoras, Benjamin Franklin, and Freidrich Nietzsche.

That's an appeal to authority that doesn't really further your point -- many brilliant people have preached Christianity in the past, but that doesn't make Christianity true.


There is no other way to prove reincarnation other than by personal revelation.

Which brings us full circle to my original statement -- reincarnation makes no sense without accumulated memory, and it is readily apparent that only a minuscule percent of the population, if any, experiences anything that would resemble accumulated memory.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 07:06 PM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 


And you don't see the church hoarding money as a problem? If the ones who dictated what went into the bible were greedy then what makes you think they didn't arrange the bible in such a way to maximize their profit?

Having a god who threatens you to eternal damnation all the while passing the offering plate around is a pretty sure-fire way to maximize profits, don't you think? I'm sure the Romans thought so.
edit on 8-1-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 07:15 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 






There is just as much credible evidence for the miracles that Christians assert as evidence of their religion as there is for reincarnation.



Know what? I don't really believe in miracles either, not as presented in the present age, at least.


Yet, you have argued the resurrection of Jesus to be true.




Reincarnation pre-dates Christiantiy by thousands of years, and was taught by some very high minds, including Pythagoras, Benjamin Franklin, and Freidrich Nietzsche.


That's an appeal to authority that doesn't really further your point -- many brilliant people have preached Christianity in the past, but that doesn't make Christianity true.


Yes, it's an appeal to authority, to address your argument that because science hasn't been able to prove that reincarnation is true in the past 40 years, it is therefore is false, and the idea that Christianity's suppressive and oppressive effects on the subject for the past 1000 years moot.



There is no other way to prove reincarnation other than by personal revelation.



Which brings us full circle to my original statement -- reincarnation makes no sense without accumulated memory, and it is readily apparent that only a minuscule percent of the population, if any, experiences anything that would resemble accumulated memory.


The concept of reincarnation hasn't changed for thousands of years. Brilliant leaders and philosophers dealt with the same issues then as you are questioning here today. They didn't see the concept of reincarnation to be flawed or illogical because of the accumulated memory problem that you cite.

This all boils down to your opinion on the matter and nothing more. There is no more need to prove reincarnation scientifically, for spiritual and religious purposes, than it is to prove any other school of philosophy or theology.

It's fine for you to remain unconvinced of reincarnation as much as I remain unconvinced that Jesus rose from the dead and was a God. There is no more logic in Christianity than in reincarnation.

I have added YouTube videos, exposed my personal experience and have lowered myself to "appeal to authority" in order to change the off-topic direction that the rhetoric from the bible thumpers are taking, who are attempting to derail this thread by citing verse upon verse of Bible scripture, and are claiming that reincarnation HAS to be false because Christianity is true!



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 09:06 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


So, what exactly have you learned about yourself and God through all of these many lifetimes that you remember?

And just how many lifetimes do you think you've lived?

Why do you think you keep coming back?



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 10:06 PM
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Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by wildtimes
 


i agree with your points, but what about a murderer existing to just teach a lesson to a previous life murderer. How will that loop end? Unless the last murderer does it for justice and so the killing doesnt taints his soul. And a rapist learning a lesson without turning into a girl in next cycle and being raped but again a rapist is required and no man can rape for justice, thats just sick! So a rapist has to be taught a lesson some other way.
I understand that nobody can claim to be morally superior to dispense justice for every tiny error. But a justice system at some level is a must for a good society.


The loop ends basically when you do not take the easy way. When revenge, rage, hate and etc are not present anymore, when you see that being and feel sorry for his mistakes. It is not an easy path. The idea is only complete when you think and realize that there is a punishment at the other side as well, although it is not an eternal one, but a trial...something far more painful and arduous. You cannot escape this and it only ends with true redemption, humility and resignation.

The learning cycle has 2 ends: here and at the other side



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 10:07 PM
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Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by windword
 


So, what exactly have you learned about yourself and God through all of these many lifetimes that you remember?


Glad you asked!

I learned that eternity begins now and your life shouldn't be wasted on thoughts and worries of the afterlife, any more than we should be worried about things that are behind us and in the past.

I learned that who I am can't be contained or trapped within the small existence of being human. The soul is as big as it is aware.


And just how many lifetimes do you think you've lived?


I think we are all on a "Hero's Journey" here on earth, but that we also exist on or in other planes or dimensions simultaneously, through our higher selves. This journey is cyclic, like the grades of school, working towards a goal.

"Christ" is an archetype of higher myself, just a bit ahead of me on the path, and like a rainbow, the closer I get, the more it moves away. But I am compelled to follow that rainbow. Along the way, there are valleys lined with huge mountains that watch and guide the path. Sometimes I come across a meadow so sweet, I linger and take a break from my journey, to tarry and smell the roses!

I'll get there when I get there. After all, I have all of eternity to arrive.

Sometimes, I spy adventurous looking detour into canyons and up high, high mountains, that require endurance and courage, to take on. I don't always make it to the summit in the first try, but I challenge myself to try, try again, until I get to the top! It's only myself that I challenge, and only myself that appreciates the beauty of the heights that I am able to achieve.


Why do you think you keep coming back?


I haven't achieved my goal yet. That goal, I believe, is to remember who I am. Or, for Adjensen, let me put it in a way that would meet his expectation of what reincarnation should be:

To encompass the accumulated memory of my challenges and battles, victories and treasures of experience and the love that I gave and received, and all that I learned about myself, and therefore God.

When I have that, I'll be done with this journey, and on to another one. After all, eternity is a long, long time.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 10:11 PM
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reply to post by Taunos
 





The loop ends basically when you do not take the easy way. When revenge, rage, hate and etc are not present anymore, when you see that being and feel sorry for his mistakes. It is not an easy path.


Exactly. The loop of karma ends when we stand up and say it ends! It's not easy not to get sucked into revenge and punishment. But you have to "pull away" and take another path, even if you don't know where it will take you.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 10:16 PM
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Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by windword
 


So, what exactly have you learned about yourself and God through all of these many lifetimes that you remember?

And just how many lifetimes do you think you've lived?

Why do you think you keep coming back?


Most of the times we ask to come back. It might sound crazy to have all this over again, but when you evolve and learn at the other side, you realize that as long as you have something to finish or to actually learn or atone for, you need to come back. Some lessons can't be learned there, there are lessons that only the trial of living the arduous life in flesh, with corruption, pain and tears all around you (what we see in this world) are learned. Those will make you really (and I mean REALLY) realize what is right and what is wrong.

I can say that the most valuable lessons I had so far were the painful ones, lessons that cannot exist in a place without pain or corruption. Those I would never learn there and I can say I grew up a lot during the hard times, I see the world with different colors. When your moral principals evolve, you can say you learned something and you judgement will be different towards similar troubling situations.


edit on 8-1-2013 by Taunos because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 11:52 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen
 






There is just as much credible evidence for the miracles that Christians assert as evidence of their religion as there is for reincarnation.



Know what? I don't really believe in miracles either, not as presented in the present age, at least.


Yet, you have argued the resurrection of Jesus to be true.

I'm not sure that I've made such an argument on ATS, but that's not what I said -- I don't believe in miracles, as they are presented these days.




Reincarnation pre-dates Christiantiy by thousands of years, and was taught by some very high minds, including Pythagoras, Benjamin Franklin, and Freidrich Nietzsche.


That's an appeal to authority that doesn't really further your point -- many brilliant people have preached Christianity in the past, but that doesn't make Christianity true.


Yes, it's an appeal to authority, to address your argument that because science hasn't been able to prove that reincarnation is true in the past 40 years, it is therefore is false, and the idea that Christianity's suppressive and oppressive effects on the subject for the past 1000 years moot.

Why do you insist on couching all of your arguments in negativity regarding Christianity? I'm not a psychologist, but I suspect that someone who was would wonder whether all of your "anti-Christian" beliefs might not simply be a rejection of your mother's fundamentalism, rather than genuine belief, given that level of negativity.


I have added YouTube videos, exposed my personal experience and have lowered myself to "appeal to authority" in order to change the off-topic direction that the rhetoric from the bible thumpers are taking, who are attempting to derail this thread by citing verse upon verse of Bible scripture, and are claiming that reincarnation HAS to be false because Christianity is true!

I think that most impartial observers would note that I am neither a "Bible Thumper", nor have I couched my arguments against your point of view in any religious form.

My objection to reincarnation, as I have made clear throughout my posts on this thread, is based on a logical and empirical analysis of the claims being made, not on any dogmatic approach. As I have demonstrated repeatedly, there is significant evidence that those who believe in "past life memories" are confused by their misinterpretations of dreams, fantasies and coping mechanisms. There is little to no scientific evidence that such beliefs are actually grounded in past life memories, significant evidence that these memories are invalid and often prompted by over zealous supporters who claim to be investigators, and no reason to believe that reincarnation is a valid premise, given the lack of accumulated memory.



posted on Jan, 9 2013 @ 01:25 AM
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reply to post by adjensen
 





I'm not sure that I've made such an argument on ATS, but that's not what I said -- I don't believe in miracles, as they are presented these days.


I'm pretty sure that you have. What do you mean by present day miracles? Do they include personal revelation?



Why do you insist on couching all of your arguments in negativity regarding Christianity? I'm not a psychologist, but I suspect that someone who was would wonder whether all of your "anti-Christian" beliefs might not simply be a rejection of your mother's fundamentalism, rather than genuine belief, given that level of negativity.


I was seeing the thread being hijacked by Christian rhetoric and scriptural references, references to demons being responsible for children's memories, and suggestions that reincarnation is false because Christianity is true. In order to bring the thread back on topic, I posted this:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

To which you posted this:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Here you discount the memories of people, of all ages, as being influenced by their preconceptions, upbringing and environment, therefore they are unreliable and invalid.

I point out that the same can be said of people who have Christian religious experiences. Thus the Christian analogy..................


Not all, but many Christians use the Bible to prove their beliefs and to discredit anything different from what they have been taught. This too is programming, that is equally suspect but widely accepted in today's society. I'm trying to point out the hypocrisy of favoring one system's personal revelations and beliefs as more valid and logical than the other, as has been the norm, at least here in the USA.

I've seen many religious fanatics of the Christian persuasion. But, I haven't seen any preachy, demon blaming, reincarnationists condemning Christians to hell.



As I have demonstrated repeatedly, there is significant evidence that those who believe in "past life memories" are confused by their misinterpretations of dreams, fantasies and coping mechanisms.


No, you haven't. There is not significant evidence of any such claim. The same generalization can be made of anyone who claims to have had a spiritual experience of any kind.


There is little to no scientific evidence that such beliefs are actually grounded in past life memories, significant evidence that these memories are invalid and often prompted by over zealous supporters who claim to be investigators, and no reason to believe that reincarnation is a valid premise, given the lack of accumulated memory.


No, there isn't scientific evidence that those experiences are invalid. Science can't even verify the existence of a soul, little alone it's pre-existence and reincarnation. The only answer your science has presented is psychological defect.

There are plenty of over zealous Christians who get their "higher" education at religious institutions, ignoring scientific academia, who make it their life work to promote their own psychologically defective fantasies and coping mechanisms too. These people can't see past their bias and present their illogical arguments like Jesus rising from the dead, dying for the sins of the world and a GOD that sits outside of the universe, watching us all the time, and making stuff happen.

Given my expectations of God, the Christian model is an invalid premise.

Your expectation that reincarnation should present accumulated memory, on demand, is YOUR expectation and not a premise of the philosophy and theology behind it. That is your "bar" that you have set for acceptance of reincarnation. It isn't a valid argument to those that subscribe to it.

Your opinion and rejection of reincarnation, and those who claim personal revelation of it's truth, is noted.


edit on 9-1-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 9 2013 @ 05:50 AM
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reply to post by windword
 



I haven't achieved my goal yet. That goal, I believe, is to remember who I am. Or, for Adjensen, let me put it in a way that would meet his expectation of what reincarnation should be:

To encompass the accumulated memory of my challenges and battles, victories and treasures of experience and the love that I gave and received, and all that I learned about myself, and therefore God.

When I have that, I'll be done with this journey, and on to another one. After all, eternity is a long, long time.


Just so I understand what you're saying, there is no greater purpose for these lives other than an eternity of experiences to discover new things about yourself and the universe around you (which is part of yourself)?

After all of the lives you've lived, what do you still consider your greatest weaknesses?



posted on Jan, 9 2013 @ 05:58 AM
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reply to post by Taunos
 


So, Taunos, have you reached your goal?

Is this your last trip back here?

Or do you believe this cycle goes on for eternity too?

By the way, what do you remember about your past lives and what have you learned so far from them, specifically?


edit on 9-1-2013 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 9 2013 @ 08:49 AM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen
 





I'm not sure that I've made such an argument on ATS, but that's not what I said -- I don't believe in miracles, as they are presented these days.


I'm pretty sure that you have. What do you mean by present day miracles? Do they include personal revelation?

In rereading that, I retract my statement that I've not argued the case for Christ's resurrection on ATS, I'm also pretty sure that I have. However, I stand by my actual statement that I don't believe in present day miracles -- Mary appearing to people, faith healing, prophets, etc. I believe that God interacts with people on a personal basis, I've seen evidence of this in my life, but I think most, if not all, of these "showy" events are not legitimate.


I was seeing the thread being hijacked by Christian rhetoric and scriptural references, references to demons being responsible for children's memories, and suggestions that reincarnation is false because Christianity is true. In order to bring the thread back on topic, I posted this:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

To which you posted this:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

If you read the page that I cited, which apparently you didn't, you'd see that it's an atheist's argument, predicated on science, not a Christian one based on theology. When I said I'm not basing my objections on Christianity, I mean it -- no, reincarnation is not a part of Christianity, but neither is evolution, and I believe in that, and neither is the prospect of extraterrestrial life, and I think that possible.

I'm not some "cookie cutter" Christian or the modern day equivalent of your mother and whatever goofy preacher she followed that believed that a kid who thought she was reincarnated needed an exorcism (aside: I assume that wasn't a Catholic exorcism -- that requires a priest with the permission of Bishop, which wouldn't have been granted in your case, because you clearly weren't "possessed.") My views on God and Christianity are significantly different from most peoples', so please stop painting me with a brush that you reserve for fundamentalists, Pentecostals and other people that you've put into a stereotyped box in your mind.


No, there isn't scientific evidence that those experiences are invalid. Science can't even verify the existence of a soul, little alone it's pre-existence and reincarnation. The only answer your science has presented is psychological defect.

Science can't prove the supernatural, no, that's beyond its scope. But it can disprove it by demonstrating the natural explanation for something that's claimed to be supernatural, and so far as I've seen, that's generally been the case.

Again, if reincarnation is real, there should be millions of people who experience it, and yet we have a veritable handful of claims, and those which are investigated, scientifically, rather than superficially, are shown to have, at best, the potential for cultural contamination, meaning that they are useless for scientifically demonstrating that reincarnation is real.


Your expectation that reincarnation should present accumulated memory, on demand, is YOUR expectation and not a premise of the philosophy and theology behind it.

Yes, it is, and if you go back and read through this thread, I never demanded that anyone agree with me. You believe in it, that's fine, but if you can't answer the question of how anyone is supposed to benefit, improve or grow without accumulated memory, then my objection still stands as a valid one.



posted on Jan, 9 2013 @ 09:20 AM
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Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Taunos
 


So, Taunos, have you reached your goal?

Is this your last trip back here?

Or do you believe this cycle goes on for eternity too?

By the way, what do you remember about your past lives and what have you learned so far from them, specifically?


edit on 9-1-2013 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)


Hi, Deetermined. I can't say it is my last trip here, but I'm doing my best to do everything right. Every cycle is a step towards the right path and it is not an infinite cycle. First, Earth is not the only world and there are way more evolved worlds out there, worlds where you learn different lessons, where there is no evil.

When you reach a superior moral level, you will not need to enter in life cycles. The higher spirits always work helping our brothers to reach such level. At the spiritual world we never stop working, studying and helping our brothers. You might choose to reincarnate to help a very dear person, you might return as a father to teach your son (who is not evolved as you are - usually that's what happens) principles of righteousness and good.

There a vast horizon of possibilities, but remember we never stop working and the cycles are no infinite.
edit on 9-1-2013 by Taunos because: grammar



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