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Let's talk about REINCARNATION again....by special request.

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posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 01:03 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by adjensen
 


From what I've read, the majority of his studies were of things that had already happened,

What do you mean, "things that had already happened"?

Once the child is testifying to the fact that they had a previous life, it's too late -- if there is a taint that has resulted in this "memory", it's already happened.

The only way that something could be said to be a scientific, bias free study would be to study children who had no exposure to anything that might lead them to believe that they'd lived before. Whether that's possible or not, I don't know, but it's definitely not what Stevenson did.




posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 01:03 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 



The link that I provided earlier about the boy who it was claimed was a WW II fighter pilot is a great example. From the seed of a small incident (the visit to a museum) a whole elaborate story was constructed, one which proved to be false once it was dug into.

Yes, that case was debunked.
But the myriad cases in India over the decades of research have a LOT of credible parts....
what about the little boy in Scotland, who recalled his life on the island of Barra?

Well, if you're not interested in looking into the books and research and documentaries, there's not much we can do except "tell you" what we've discovered in our own expeditions.......


People like to use the word "pseudo-science" to discredit these studies of cases when it comes to these matters, but...isn't all "religious" and "theological study" pseudo-science as well?



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 01:08 PM
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Ian Stevenson, a psychiatrist at the University of Virginia, has devoted his career to the study of cases suggestive of reincarnation. The cases consist of narratives of young children who claim to remember past lives.The cases occur primarily in India, Sri Lanka, South Asia, West Africa, Lebanon, and among Northwestern Native Americans, in cultures and religions in which reincarnation is accepted. Stevenson and his colleagues have collected over 2000 such narratives, but only a much smaller number provide what he considers "strong" evidence.

In the latter cases, Stevenson has performed detailed, nearly contemporaneous investigations that appear to rule-out communication of any kind between the child's family and the relatives of the recently deceased person the child claims to be. In addition, many of the "strong" cases have birth defects or birthmarks at the exact sites of traumatic injuries in the deceased person's life.


litmed.med.nyu.edu...
He did his level best to try to filter out the possible "sensational attention seekers" from the actually bizarre memory phenomena.

I have a lot of respect for him; a person studying a controversial, so-called 'paranormal' occurrence will naturally meet up against a LOT of naysayers and skeptics. And killjoys. (
......
)
edit on 8-1-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 01:09 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


i watched the video and it is interesting although inconclusive as you said.
I got a question that was also raised in the video, that why these cases happen mostly in communities that believe in reincarnation.
The same goes for Jesus pbuh appearing on food,
word Allah on food etc
our brain shows us what we want to see. Maybe a kid watches on tv etc and parents jump on it to validate it.
There is another explanation but it will open a new discussion. JINNS!!



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 01:11 PM
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reply to post by logical7
 


JINNS! , eh?
Looking forward to the thread. You go, you!!!



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 01:11 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by adjensen
 



The link that I provided earlier about the boy who it was claimed was a WW II fighter pilot is a great example. From the seed of a small incident (the visit to a museum) a whole elaborate story was constructed, one which proved to be false once it was dug into.

Yes, that case was debunked.
But the myriad cases in India over the decades of research have a LOT of credible parts....
what about the little boy in Scotland, who recalled his life on the island of Barra?

I've never heard of it, sorry.


Well, if you're not interested in looking into the books and research and documentaries, there's not much we can do except "tell you" what we've discovered in our own expeditions.......

Again, if there are actual scientific studies that have been done, I'd have a look at them, but so far, all I've heard is anecdotal evidence, which is no evidence at all -- I lump it in with the "Heaven is Real" kid, I don't really believe that story, either, even though one might assume I would.


People like to use the word "pseudo-science" to discredit these studies of cases when it comes to these matters, but...isn't all "religious" and "theological study" pseudo-science as well?

No, theology isn't pseudo-science, it isn't science at all -- it's a branch of philosophy.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 01:16 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 



No, theology isn't pseudo-science, it isn't science at all -- it's a branch of philosophy.

Oh boy. Strangely enough, yesterday I took my copy of Dialogues of Plato, a relic from my undergrad years back in about 1980, and started to read it again.

Socrates and Jesus could be VERY EASILY paralleled in what they taught, and how they were put on trial for "corrupting youth" and "refuting common teaching", and sentenced to death...... But, that, too is another thread....



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 01:21 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


I'll try to see if I can find any information on this woman from India, so far I haven't come across it.

In the meanwhile, I'm not sure I care for the odds...



Did they prefer this or the previous life? Over half clearly preferred the present life (55%), about a third had no preference or did not know which life they preferred, and 13% stated that they preferred the previous life that they remembered.



The subjects seemed to be living normal productive lives as far as we could ascertain. One was working as a mathematician in a bank, another as an engineer, and one with computers. There were six housewives, five students, three teachers, and the rest were found in various occupations. Only two were unemployed, which is unusual for Sri Lanka, one was disabled through an accident, and one had become a drug-addict (Sri Lanka has a rather serious drug problem). 87% stated that they were reasonably satisfied with their occupation. Twenty-one people were single, 19 married, and most of them had children. One person was divorced. On the whole the data indicate that our subjects have fared reasonably well in life, probably somewhat above the average for their age group in Sri Lanka.


www.scientificexploration.org...



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 01:23 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by adjensen
 



No, theology isn't pseudo-science, it isn't science at all -- it's a branch of philosophy.

Oh boy. Strangely enough, yesterday I took my copy of Dialogues of Plato, a relic from my undergrad years back in about 1980, and started to read it again.

That's an excellent text, good on you for picking it up again (most people can't wait to chuck Plato out the window when they're done with high school, lol.) When you get to his "Theory of Forms", you'll find why I've always been so keen on the Second Century Gnostic Christians, though I eventually sided with Augustine, rather than them, for reasons of history and logic.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 01:24 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 





The link that I provided earlier about the boy who it was claimed was a WW II fighter pilot is a great example. From the seed of a small incident (the visit to a museum) a whole elaborate story was constructed, one which proved to be false once it was dug into.


There is no proof that the boy's story was and elaborate construct. Even if the boy ws exposed to WW II memorabilia, it could have served to trigger the boy's memory.

I had memories as a young child of being a Japanese woman. I used to tell my mother fairy tales about the moon and the rabbit that lived there, that she thought I was making up. Later, I found them (to my surprise and relief) in Japanese mythology.

When we did papier mache in 3rd grade art, I made a Buddha statue. The teacher was upset and called my mother, who promptly destroyed the "pagan idol" and insured me that anything Japanese was of the Devil. Since I had never been exposed to Buddhism or anything Japanese, living in a strict white Christian neighborhood, my mother could only conclude that it was Satan.

Then she took me to the preacher to have the devil cast out of me, again!
I eventually learned to keep my thoughts to myself. Exorcism is no fun!

There are many stories that are misunderstood, or no one cared to check out, and just went ignored. Just because some appear to have some outside influence, doesn't mean that there is no truth to their memory. No debunker is ever going to convince me that my memories, and there are many, aren't really mine.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 01:26 PM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 


Shanti Devi
Here you go!!!

Shanti Devi (11 December 1926 - 27 December 1987) was born in Delhi, India.[1] As a little girl in the 1930s she began to claim to remember details of a past life. The case was brought to the attention of Mahatma Gandhi who set up a commission to investigate; a report was published in 1936.[2] Two further reports were written at the time, one critical of the reincarnation claims,[3] and a rebuttal thereof.[4] A further report, based on interviews conducted in 1936, was published in 1952.[5] Later in life Shanti Devi was interviewed again, and a Swedish author who had visited her twice published a book about the case in 1994; the English translation appeared in 1998.[6]



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 01:28 PM
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reply to post by windword
 



Then she took me to the preacher to have the devil cast out of me, again! I eventually learned to keep my thoughts to myself. Exorcism is no fun!
Whoa, DUDE!!!
Really? You were subjected to an exorcism?

Oh, please do tell.....
yet ANOTHER thread coming!!



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 01:31 PM
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More on Shanti Devi:

As she knew several details of Kedar Nath's life with his wife, he was soon convinced that Shanti Devi was indeed the reincarnation of Lugdi Devi. When Mahatma Gandhi heard about the case, he met the child and set up a commission to investigate. The commission traveled with Shanti Devi to Mathura, arriving on November 15, 1935. There she recognized several family members, including the grandfather of Lugdi Devi. She found out that Kedar Nath had neglected to keep a number of promises he had made to Lugdi Devi on her deathbed. She then traveled home with her parents. The commission's report concluded that Shanti Devi was indeed the reincarnation of Lugdi Devi.[2]


The commission's report concluded that we was indeed the reincarnation of Ludgi.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 01:35 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen
 





The link that I provided earlier about the boy who it was claimed was a WW II fighter pilot is a great example. From the seed of a small incident (the visit to a museum) a whole elaborate story was constructed, one which proved to be false once it was dug into.


There is no proof that the boy's story was and elaborate construct. Even if the boy ws exposed to WW II memorabilia, it could have served to trigger the boy's memory.

Except that it triggered invalid memories -- the details that he "remembered" were either generic or wrong, and could have been introduced by parents or the "past life proponent" who interviewed him.


I had memories as a young child of being a Japanese woman.

Could you speak or write Japanese as a young child? Everything else is anecdotal (and again, I don't disagree that you had these memories, just the validity of them,) but if you could remember being Japanese, could you speak or read the language that a Japanese person could? If so, that would be non-anecdotal evidence.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 01:45 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


Yes! Probably about 4 times. I was always held down while the preacher was yelling at Satan, who was inside of me. There were about 5 people, all praying loudly and speaking in tongues, and the preacher would pour oil on my head........Quite a traumatic ordeal really.

But it didn't work, apparently, because my mom started taking me to a hypnotherapist, that I remember telling me how to forget things. She had me create a big house inside my head, and delegated rooms for my different memories, then locked the doors and threw the key away, so that they couldn't get out and I couldn't get in.

Lovely, huh? A programmed associative disorder, purposefully installed out of religious fear! All because as a little girl, I claimed to remember living before as an (evil) Japanese Buddhist woman.



I remember defiantly telling my mom that I would never forget and that no one could make me!



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 01:56 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 





Could you speak or write Japanese as a young child? Everything else is anecdotal (and again, I don't disagree that you had these memories, just the validity of them,) but if you could remember being Japanese, could you speak or read the language that a Japanese person could? If so, that would be non-anecdotal evidence.


That is not a valid argument to verify the validity of memories. No child is born already knowing how to read or write language. It all has to be learned. People have difficulties remembering what happen a year ago, little alone specific details of a past life in order to satisfy skeptics.

However, I did remember my previous religion, and some mythologies, without any obvious stimulus encouraging it.

Although, there are some people who, like Mozart, showed signs of genius and specific talents at a very young age, they are very rare, unlike the claims of "remembering." But, I do think that people are drawn back into their previous passions.

I remember wondering why I wasn't able to just sit down and play the piano, and why I had to struggle so much through boring lessons. Being raised Pentecostal, I thought that like speaking in tongues, the language of heavenly angels, I should also be able to play piano in tongues, without effort. Alas!


edit on 8-1-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 01:59 PM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 


God is the Alpha and Omega, which means he is the first and the last, right? That lines up with Jesus' parable of the workers, where he said the last will be first and the first will be last, yes? These workers were everyday people, so why would Jesus imply that they were god by saying they were the first and last (Alpha and Omega)?

Seems like that lines up with my thoughts perfectly, that we are god.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 02:03 PM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 


Is there any evidence that this gate exists or ever existed? Or is it an assumption that the church made fact in order to cover their own deeds? My money is on the latter, personally.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 02:14 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen
 





Could you speak or write Japanese as a young child? Everything else is anecdotal (and again, I don't disagree that you had these memories, just the validity of them,) but if you could remember being Japanese, could you speak or read the language that a Japanese person could? If so, that would be non-anecdotal evidence.


That is not a valid argument to verify the validity of memories. No child is born already knowing how to read or write language. It all has to be learned. People have difficulties remembering what happen a year ago, little alone specific details of a past life in order to satisfy skeptics.

Yes, but in the case of what you're saying, you aren't remembering yourself as a child, but as an adult, so you should be able to "remember" Japanese, the same as you would remember religious or cultural aspects of that life.

Memories are tricky things -- there's no reason to think it impossible that, some time prior to those experiences, you were exposed to some aspects of Asian culture without remembering it happening. You didn't say that you "remembered Buddhism", rather that you made a statue that resembled Buddha, which was a bit of a cultural fad in the 50s and 60s here in the US (I remember my Dad having some Buddhist stuff sitting around the house when I grew up.) It seems odd that you'd associate Buddha with Japanese religion, when he plays a pretty minor part in Shinto, the dominant Japanese religion.

Combined with a Mom that sounds like she blew things out of proportion pretty easily, it just seems possible that these memories were grounded in something other than having actually been a Japanese woman in a previous life. Again, I believe that you had these memories, and the experiences that you described really happened, I just question whether reincarnation is the only explanation, and if it's not, whether it's the most likely.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 02:23 PM
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reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 


Personally, I'll just take it as a blessing that anything that I've gathered in the form of wealth here on this earth has always been taken away from me so, I don't have to worry about it!


I have no desire to go after it either. I've seen what it does to other people in trying and it's not pretty!

Probably why we're warned about it so many times in the Bible.



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