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Let's talk about REINCARNATION again....by special request.

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posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 12:06 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


Hey, thanks.
Yes, I think you're right - where it isn't ridiculed, it is looked into.

But....
what does Austin City Limits and Sting's song have to do with kids remembering? Yes, I heard the Biblical/religious tones....
I thought maybe there'd be overlaid pictures and quotes from kids...

Sorry if I'm being dense!

That happens .....
a lot.




posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 12:10 PM
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Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
 





A camel going through the eye of a needle? Read: impossible. So that means it is even more impossible for the rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. So since the church is the richest in the world, wouldn't that mean it is impossible for them to get there? Yes!


The "eye of the needle" was the smaller gate within a larger gate in Jerusalem. The larger gate was closed at night and people could only enter into the city through the smaller gate at night. Not impossible for a camel to go through, but it was much more difficult.



Unfortunately, this is just a Sunday school story, and a myth. It's an apologetic for the scripture that makes it impossible for a rich man to enter heaven, according to Jesus. The rich folks that were pushing Christianity couldn't reconcile the story with their own hypocritical lifestyles. So they had to invent a story, so that the rich could still keep their wealth, and convince the poorer populations to stay poor and give up any hope of wealth.


Just where is that gate in Jerusalem?

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."

(Matthew 19:24) For the last two centuries it has been common teaching in Sunday School that there is a gate in Jerusalem called the eye of the needle, through which a camel could not pass unless it stooped and first had all its baggage first removed. After dark, when the main gates were shut, travellers or merchants would have to use this smaller gate, through which the camel could only enter unencumbered and crawling on its knees!

Great sermon material, with the parallels of coming to God on our knees without all our baggage. A lovely story and an excellent parable for preaching but unfortunately unfounded! From at least the 15th century, and possibly as early as the 9th but not earlier, this story has been put forth, however, there is no evidence for such a gate, nor record of reprimand of the architect who may have forgotten to make a gate big enough for the camel and rider to pass through unhindered. www.biblicalhebrew.com...



Many people have tried to explain this phrase. We believe it means exactly what it says, and does not need watered-down explanations to make it easier for a rich man to enter Heaven. We will show you why.

Small gate?

Some say the needle's eye, or the eye of the needle, was a small gate at the entrance of Jerusalem and other cities. When the city-keepers had locked the main gates, camels and their owners who arrived after hours could squeeze through this gate.

But scholars have searched in vain to find ancient evidence that people referred to any of these gates as “the eye of a needle”.
www.creationtips.com...






edit on 8-1-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 12:14 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


Ooops!


I didn't know that I had that in queue! It's fixed now!


It is a cool song!
edit on 8-1-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by windword
It seems that where people do believe in reincarnation, people are less likely to be scared or think the children are "demon possessed" because of their memories, and therefore their claims are researched instead of mocked or dismissed as childhood fantasy.


... and when researched, there often is a prosaic, rather than supernatural, explanation behind it:

Reincarnation all over again. Set your "skeptical about skeptics" hat aside for the moment and read it through to the end.

Oddly enough, according to the foremost scientific reincarnation researcher, when people do believe in reincarnation, their children's stories are completely in harmony with their beliefs, even when in direct conflict with other groups' beliefs in the same phenomenon.


He is referring to the fact that (according to Stevenson), reincarnations appear to coincide with the cultural beliefs of the society in which they are reported. For example, in cultures where they believe that you cannot change sex in a reincarnation, they don’t report cases of changed sex reincarnation. To me, these are indications that the children and/or the adults observing them are (knowingly or subconsciously), applying their pre-learned cultural beliefs to make the stories fit. In other words, this is a reason to doubt reincarnation. (Source)

(In that text, "Stevenson" refers to Ian Stevenson, whose fellow scientists saw him as naive and too accepting of incomplete data in making his studies.)



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 12:21 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


Let's take a look at someone who has studied this phenomena and what these children have to say.

"Stevenson studies children who remember past lives"

www.virginia.edu...

Let's look at the second paragraph...


The child remembered lying in a hospital longing to speak with Leila, the daughter of a Lebanese woman who had died thousands of miles away in Virginia. The child could name all the woman's relatives and recalled wanting to ask her brother to ensure that her daughters received her jewels.


One of the first messages this deceased spirit wants to pass on to their surviving relatives is where their jewels are?

Here's another one...


In such a case in Lebanon, for instance, a 5-year-old boy talked about a village that was 50 kilometers away, describing events in a man's life and naming his relatives, Stevenson said. "He also talked a great deal about a woman who turned out to have been his mistress and described [a rifle] the man had owned," he said.


Mistresses and guns?


He added that children in Asia are also often discouraged from speaking about the past lives they remember -- not from skepticism, but because they don't like what the child says, or they believe the child may become ill because of the apparent memories.

"These children can be troublesome, especially if they say they came from a higher class or caste, and they grumble about the food and the clothes. They can also become tediously repetitive in talking about their past life, sometimes including pretty sordid murders," he said.


Grumbling about food and clothes?

Murders?

Of course, I've already shared where I think this information truly comes from.





edit on 8-1-2013 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 12:28 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


And so it is with Christians who see visions of St. Mary, or hear the voice of God.

That doesn't mean that these experiences aren't true. But, it's been my experience that Christians have a history of fear and mockery of all things that have to do with reincarnation, mystic spiritualism, Buddhist meditating, clairvoyance or channeling, etc.

They burned witches and hung heretics and the effects of centuries of this kind of spiritual oppression has left the western world bereft of alternative spiritual themes, such as reincarnation.

The example of the persistence in the belief, in the face of science, of the resurrection of Jesus, to the point where the Catholic Church has commissioned Catholic pathologists to prove, without a body, that Jesus really did die at crucifixion, illustrates the hypocrisy of calling reincarnation a fringe delusion that is fed only through those who already believe it, while the resurrection of Jesus is supposedly scientific and logical.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 12:31 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


The eye of the camel gate...

Scroll through the pictures at the bottom here...

www.okumc.org...

and here...

www.krystalheath.com...

and here...

theaventuradelavida.blogspot.com...



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 12:32 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 



Oddly enough, according to the foremost scientific reincarnation researcher, when people do believe in reincarnation, their children's stories are completely in harmony with their beliefs, even when in direct conflict with other groups' beliefs in the same phenomenon..


EDIT: SORRY, FIRST VERSION INCLUDED WRONG QUOTE FROM ANOTHER MEMBER AND THREAD. DOH!!

adj,
did you watch the video program that wind posted? It has Stevenson himself discussing the 'frailties' of the research. Ian Stevenson is the foremost researcher on these phenomena.....

he even hired a lawyer to review his thousands of files to ensure that they were objective and scientific. Unfortunately, he was unable to say "aye" or "nay" to the discovered 'facts' around the children's memories. He's no hack. But, he honestly admits that further research needs to be done, even that it may not be possible to prove it.

That doesn't mean it isn't a possibility, though. Yes, yes, the power of suggestion, overheard stories, kids with "imaginary friends" - but nevertheless, there are very compelling cases, in my opinion.

------------------------------------------

@ Dee:
I gather you are actually looking into the research and resources....and I want to thank you for doing so.

None of us really know the truth. We can only guess. It's natural to seek others who don't dismiss our opinions (I figured out a a very young age - preteen - that I could find ANYONE to back me up in ANY situation or thought I had, and that it was all too easy to go to only THOSE PEOPLE when I wanted support).

I try very hard to stay open-minded, and to sort through all the interpretations and ideas of things spiritual - from every culture -- and amalgamate them in my mind to find the one common denominator that we all share.

I'm, for now, convinced only that Laughter, Tears, Smiles, Frowns, Grief and Joy are ONLY truly Universal phenomena that bridge the chasms between all of us. (Aside, of course, from needing to breathe, eat, sleep, and have water)....

Perhaps....?
maybe....?
God really IS just Laughter, and Love;
and Music is our human-particular most spiritual product....
edit on 8-1-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)


--------------------------
@windword:
ADDITIONAL EDIT: That's TWO OF US in this very thread who had cued up a different copy/paste and inserted it.
Uh Oh!!!

edit on 8-1-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 12:36 PM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 



Grumbling about food and clothes?

Murders?

Of course, I've already shared where I think this information truly comes from.

Just to be clear.....
you think this information comes from "demons", right? Even if the claims can be corroborated by the "survivor" families?

To me, it simply shows that the reason that person reincarnated was BECAUSE they were still flawed, still materialistic, still attached to fleshly things.

If they weren't - they'd have ascended and not had to come back to "retrain" or "learn".



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 12:37 PM
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Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by windword
 


Let's take a look at someone who has studied this phenomena and what these children have to say.

"Stevenson studies children who remember past lives"

www.virginia.edu...

Let's look at the second paragraph...


The child remembered lying in a hospital longing to speak with Leila, the daughter of a Lebanese woman who had died thousands of miles away in Virginia. The child could name all the woman's relatives and recalled wanting to ask her brother to ensure that her daughters received her jewels.


One of the first messages this deceased spirit wants to pass on to their surviving relatives is where their jewels are?


Who are you to judge a person's priorities and concerns of their unfinished business and worries about how they left their state of affairs and their loved ones, who they still care about and remember?


Here's another one...


In such a case in Lebanon, for instance, a 5-year-old boy talked about a village that was 50 kilometers away, describing events in a man's life and naming his relatives, Stevenson said. "He also talked a great deal about a woman who turned out to have been his mistress and described [a rifle] the man had owned," he said.


Mistresses and guns?


There is a reason why people come back. They are still attached to their stuff and have lessons to learn. Do you think that sinners wouldn't reincarnate with their sin?



He added that children in Asia are also often discouraged from speaking about the past lives they remember -- not from skepticism, but because they don't like what the child says, or they believe the child may become ill because of the apparent memories.

"These children can be troublesome, especially if they say they came from a higher class or caste, and they grumble about the food and the clothes. They can also become tediously repetitive in talking about their past life, sometimes including pretty sordid murders," he said.


Grumbling about food and clothes?

Murders?

Of course, I've already shared where I think this information truly comes from.


Just because you don't understand how ills can be remanifested in the re-born, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.


"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.





posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 12:41 PM
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Originally posted by windword
reply to post by adjensen
 


And so it is with Christians who see visions of St. Mary, or hear the voice of God.

What does this have to do with anything? Did you read the articles that I posted? Neither has anything to do with Christianity.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 12:42 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 


Yes, I think it's demons feeding children this information, but you make a good point about these being souls that obviously didn't evolve.

Is the research on these children so new that we don't have follow-up on how their adult lives are progressing?



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 12:45 PM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 


I don't see any proof in any of your links.

Scholars and archaeologist can't find the supposed gate. I think that it's probable that small doors have been photographed and claims have been made, but they are not valid assertions, or scholars would say so. There's a place in Syria that claims to house the still living burning bush that Moses talked to, too. There's also a tourist spot in Turkey boasting possession of and charging money to see "Noah's Ark."

Tourists will pay to see anything and there's a sucker born every minute.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 12:46 PM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 

No, in the video that windword posted, they brought up the case of a little girl in India, born in the 1920s, who was interviewed right up to four days before she died as an old lady.

It's a very interesting field of study. I would LOVE to be a researcher into this stuff.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 12:49 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


We're discussing reincarnation. The "visions" and "channeling" that some people claim come from "Jesus" or the "GLF" or whatever are equivalent -- in a sort of lame way -- to the "memories" of these kids.

What little kid knows about jewels and guns and murders and mistresses? Very few, and even if they have heard conversations, we have to remember that they are little kids - who don't understand those concepts until later age.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 12:49 PM
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reply to post by wildtimes
 





-------------------------- @windword: ADDITIONAL EDIT: That's TWO OF US in this very thread who had cued up a different copy/paste and inserted it. Uh Oh!!!


DEMONS! Trying to silence us from telling the truth!



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 12:53 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
did you watch the video program that wind posted? It has Stevenson himself discussing the 'frailties' of the research. Ian Stevenson is the foremost researcher on these phenomena.....

No, I don't watch videos generally.


he even hired a lawyer to review his thousands of files to ensure that they were objective and scientific. Unfortunately, he was unable to say "aye" or "nay" to the discovered 'facts' around the children's memories. He's no hack. But, he honestly admits that further research needs to be done, even that it may not be possible to prove it.

From what I've read, the majority of his studies were of things that had already happened, and so were anecdotal, and he demonstrated signs of experimenter bias, leading questioning and invalid conclusions on presented evidence. Having an attorney review your scientific studies sounds bizarre -- that's not peer reviewed, that's hiring someone of dubious qualifications to agree with you. Everything that I've found on other scientist's conclusions on Stevenson and his techniques in this area is negative, so he's not a credible researcher, in my opinion.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 12:54 PM
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reply to post by windword
 

SSSHHHH!!
You'll give us away!!!


No, but seriously, I'm delighted to see that contributing members are looking into the research and info.



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 12:58 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


From what I've read, the majority of his studies were of things that had already happened,

What do you mean, "things that had already happened"?

My study of Stevenson's research indicate that he would hear of a case of a little child having memories, contact the family of the child, look into the child's claims, and try his level best to be objective about how that child could have known about a family in a distant place - which the child, in this lifetime, had never visited - and that the details were often confirmed as to "family members", locations of homes, how the towns had "changed", etc.

He went to great lengths to MAKE SURE they were not fraudulent, adult-conspired claims between families who knew one another. MANY times, the families did not know of the existence of each other until the child brought it up.

Unfortunate that you chose not to watch the video. It presents both sides, actually - a skeptic and dismisser, as well as some case studies AND Dr. S himself discussing his findings. He's more than willing to concede that his efforts are "inconclusive", although there were MANY instances in which the child seemed to be on target.

The problem was that their memories became hazy, or they didn't get "everything" correct. But many things, they DID get correct.

edit on 8-1-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 8 2013 @ 12:59 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
What little kid knows about jewels and guns and murders and mistresses? Very few, and even if they have heard conversations, we have to remember that they are little kids - who don't understand those concepts until later age.

The problem that I have with this whole area of discussion is not believing it to be true -- as I said before, I believe that people have these experiences, I just don't believe that they're real -- but in claiming that there is some scientific evidence that proves anything. Everything posted thus far is not scientific -- it's anecdotal, meaning that there is no way of knowing if the kid "remembered" owning jewels and guns, or if he picked up the concept from television, or from an adult, or was convinced that he had a past life from a "helpful" adult.

The link that I provided earlier about the boy who it was claimed was a WW II fighter pilot is a great example. From the seed of a small incident (the visit to a museum) a whole elaborate story was constructed, one which proved to be false once it was dug into.



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