Let's talk about REINCARNATION again....by special request.

reply to post by logical7


Well, If we includes the reincarnation into animals into account.

Animals indeed existed before humans as well as co-existed. There are animals, plants, insects and other forms of lives are born every nanosecond, so time travel is not necessary.

I think reincarnated into a worm and such will just delay you stay in earth, unless you can satisfy you needs as a worm and not have any attached feeling to reborn again.

I think being born as a human makes you satisfy your needs faster, and killing and murdering just sets you back from reaching the nirvana.

This is my opinion on various reincarnation.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by logical7

 

The All didn't exist before you because you have been here for eternity, only as different people and different places.

It is true that the All does not "require" your current incarnation to exist but it does need something to perceive in order for it to exist. We are all One with existence.

Without us, as in consciousness, there would be no reason for the universe to exist because life would not exist to perceive it. The All is self sustaining just as we are self sustaining. We (the All) require the All to sustain our life, hence self sustaining. The All contains everything and is everything, so you requiring the All to exist is the All requiring the All.

Hopefully that makes sense.

No it doesnt, you are forgeting the initial cause.
What made the universe to come into existence should be existing before and without the need of it. But created it to express Himself/Itself and created percieving beings to percieve that expression. Creating is a concious decision so there has to be a Conciousness before the universe came into existence. We can be a part, we can be completely seperate yet dependent on that conciousness but we cant be All and All cant be just us(the universe) and even if the universe disappeared the First Cause or better the Conciousness/Intelligence that started it all will keep on existing.

reply to post by logical7

i agree with your points, but what about a murderer existing to just teach a lesson to a previous life murderer. How will that loop end?

Good question!!

Perhaps rather than someone 'becoming a murderer' to teach the lesson to a murderer, instead the previous-life murderer has to endure having a loved one killed - or ALL of their loved ones killed....whether in an accident, or by a murderer, or cancer, or whatever disaster - so they gain empathy for those left behind - and realize the ramifications of murder go FAR beyond just ending the life of that one person
(which is bad enough)
---rather, MANY people suffer. Perhaps the "last murderer" will be the one that turns the whole trajectory toward betterment...??

reply to post by luciddream


Are you suggesting that worms "feel emotions"?
That they are "self-aware"?




Also, there are different schools of thought on that point.
Some versions of reincarnation include the possibility of becoming a different life form -
others say, once a human you stay a human until you're done becoming ready.

On the other hand,
some say that whales, dolphins, and elephants (for example) are the ultimate incarnation.
Too bad they can't "speak our language" so much.

We can, however, learn to understand THEIR language. I have two dogs in my house. I hang out with them all day, and we interact constantly. A certain look, a particular sound, eye movement, body language; I can tell what they want....it takes a long time to get to that point, and constant observation....

but really WATCHING their behavior, and paying attention to the gestures that precede a certain behavior - can allow us to figure out where their head is. What it is they are doing, or want.

I won't go into stories here, but be sure I COULD go into example after example......

reply to post by logical7


What if there was no first cause? That's the point of the video, that the All is eternal and so are we. There has to be some eternal component to the universe, right? If there wasn't then we wouldn't be here. That eternal component is consciousness, consciousness gives rise to EVERYTHING else. Without consciousness there is only darkness and nothing.

If we are not the All then why are we made up of the same elements and atoms as everything else? Take any molecule, protein, atom, etc. within your body and you will find it everywhere else in the universe. We are the All experiencing itself and we require the All to exist. Without yourself what are you? Nothing.

Self-sustaining means the All sustains itself and since we are the All and we require the All to exist then we require ourselves. It's really simple but hard to grasp.

Think of it this way, when a scientist studies an atom he is using his brain. The brain is nothing but trillions of atoms lumped together, so him studying an atom is nothing more than atoms trying to understand other atoms (itself).Hopefully that helps a bit.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by jhill76

 

Does this indicate (I'm trying to understand the "cycles" thing) - that, as some believe - we reincarnate in "groups" - perhaps in different genders or relation to one another (for example, this time I'm my dad's daughter, next time I'm his little brother and he's a girl) - but, we know each other?

This is how it seems to me when I've met certain people and had the "BAM!" feeling of knowing them - from just ONE LOOK into their eyes...
and it seems I've known them - even been "looking for them" - forever?

In a sense as family relations, but gender will stay the same for the most part. This is where it gets tricky as you may say. Take a gay male for example, he is very feminine. His spirit is that of a female, and not of male. Your spirit gender will always stay the same.

Yes, that is correct on the second part. Usually when you get that feeling, you have known them from before or even above. I say or, because not all interact above as the rest do.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by luciddream

 

Are you suggesting that worms "feel emotions"?
That they are "self-aware"?

No i'm not suggesting that. That is exactly why i say that if we take reincarnation into different life forms into account, being born as a worm is punishment because they can't satisfy/express all their needs like a human can, so they will be born human again to satisfy those needs.

Doing evil deeds just delays you in this "world". The worm was just an example. *poor worm*


I understand why you say those creatures like Dolphins and elephant, they are generally noble creatures, but they do commit violence(not sure about elephant but dolphins do).

reply to post by luciddream


I can actually see the soul of an individual becoming one, slowly and peacefully, with the worms, as the body decays in the ground, eventually becoming one with the earth.

Maybe then, clinging to the roots of a big Banyon tree, and growing up with the tree and housing birds and insects, lovingly and joyfully and peacefully, just being one with the tree.

Then one day, a young couple, madly in love, picnics under the tree and catches your attention. You decide to be with them for awhile, taking their baby's body. And it all starts over again.

reply to post by windword

Then one day, a young couple, madly in love, picnics under the tree and catches your attention. You decide to be with them for awhile, taking their babies body. And it all starts over again.

GREAT concept, wind!

Could very well be.....

This thread is really fascinating to me. I'm happy so many have stayed involved in it. I don't know about you guys and gals, but I've gotten LOTS to think about from this. I should thank logical7 for suggesting we visit reincarnation again.

BTW, that vid was really awesome, my friend!

reply to post by windword


I like your concept, but i don't think it would make sense if the souls decide where they want to born. There is probably a system that regulates who goes where.

reply to post by luciddream


Maybe. But maybe some, sometimes do get to choose. Or maybe they get permission!

reply to post by luciddream

I think being born as a human makes you satisfy your needs faster, and killing and murdering just sets you back from reaching the nirvana.

i think humans have the worst. Most greedy, never saw animals kill for fun. Being born as animal will give a better chance for nirvana.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

i agree with your points, but what about a murderer existing to just teach a lesson to a previous life murderer. How will that loop end?

Good question!!

Perhaps rather than someone 'becoming a murderer' to teach the lesson to a murderer, instead the previous-life murderer has to endure having a loved one killed - or ALL of their loved ones killed....whether in an accident, or by a murderer, or cancer, or whatever disaster - so they gain empathy for those left behind - and realize the ramifications of murder go FAR beyond just ending the life of that one person
(which is bad enough)
---rather, MANY people suffer. Perhaps the "last murderer" will be the one that turns the whole trajectory toward betterment...??

edit on 7-1-2013 by wildtimes because: (no reason given)

good enough explanation!! But if you bring cancer in and in general karma then who is doing it? a preset accounting system or the Source, Active?
It has to be a big big big supercomputer to dispense karma.

reply to post by logical7

good enough explanation!! But if you bring cancer in and in general karma then who is doing it? a preset accounting system or the Source, Active?
It has to be a big big big supercomputer to dispense karma.

Well,
yes, it would, wouldn't it?
Hence: "God"
The Source.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by logical7

 

What if there was no first cause? That's the point of the video, that the All is eternal and so are we. There has to be some eternal component to the universe, right? If there wasn't then we wouldn't be here. That eternal component is consciousness, consciousness gives rise to EVERYTHING else. Without consciousness there is only darkness and nothing.

If we are not the All then why are we made up of the same elements and atoms as everything else? Take any molecule, protein, atom, etc. within your body and you will find it everywhere else in the universe. We are the All experiencing itself and we require the All to exist. Without yourself what are you? Nothing.

Self-sustaining means the All sustains itself and since we are the All and we require the All to exist then we require ourselves. It's really simple but hard to grasp.

Think of it this way, when a scientist studies an atom he is using his brain. The brain is nothing but trillions of atoms lumped together, so him studying an atom is nothing more than atoms trying to understand other atoms (itself).Hopefully that helps a bit.

edit on 7-1-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

edit on 7-1-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

then you are suggesting that this all just existed as we see it. Universe is not static. Any if you say cyclical then again who, how , when it started?

reply to post by logical7


The universe never changes because it never ceases to change. It is always evolving and growing.

Where it started is with you and me and everyone else. Jesus has the answer once again.

Matthew 20

16 "So the last will be first, and the first will be last."

If the beginning is the end and the end the beginning, then there is neither, there is only the "is".

reply to post by logical7


I would like to believe that.. that Animals were once good humans, living peacefully in their possible last reincarnation before reaching nirvana.

Humans might be the worst of the worst, and if needed to be, have the potential to be the best of the best.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by logical7

 

The universe never changes because it never ceases to change. It is always evolving and growing.

Where it started is with you and me and everyone else. Jesus has the answer once again.

Matthew 20

16 "So the last will be first, and the first will be last."

If the beginning is the end and the end the beginning, then there is neither, there is only the "is".

edit on 7-1-2013 by 3NL1GHT3N3D1 because: (no reason given)

with all respect, change being constant kind of philosophy is just mumble jumble.
It doesnt mean anything if you stand back and observe.
But Jesus pbuh made complete sense, just he wasnt speaking about universe but a parable of labourers who got a penny when some worked whole day while others just an hour

So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few
chosen.

it just means a believer in God from birth/childhood etc or someone who believed in his/her last years even few days before dying will get equal reward and the long term believers shouldnt whine.
Now back to topic.
Arent you choosing to ignore the origin of universe and making it exist from ever and exist forever. Why?

reply to post by luciddream

Animals were once good humans, living peacefully in their possible last reincarnation before reaching nirvana.

?? good humans dont become animals right?
The theory you suggested grades from worms to humans as worst to best.
And if animals are better at providing nirvana then it doesnt fit. I believe animals are innocent beings not prisioner souls paying karma.
Animals are less free in choice and more connected to divine.
Also if that theory is true then we are obviously in a time with much sins and should see explosion of worms and animals. But the opposite is happening, humans are destroying species each day, therefore its more likely that the theory is not true.

reply to post by logical7


The parable means that everyone gets the same reward, no matter what time they put in or what they believe in, in my opinion. Those who grumbled (non-believers) got the same reward as those who were humble (believers).

First you say the universe is not static and now that I agreed with you you call it mumbo jumbo? Come on, that's not fair.

I could say the same thing about you ignoring the eternal universe. I don't ignore the creation of the universe because I don't believe it was ever created.