Let's talk about REINCARNATION again....by special request.

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posted on Jan, 4 2013 @ 06:56 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


Josephus himself believed in reincarnation. Josephus was also a military commander who used the concept of reincarnation to rally his troops.


“Do ye not remember that all pure Spirits when they depart out of this life obtain a most holy place in heaven, from whence, in the revolutions of ages, they are again sent into pure bodies.”
Flavius Josephus, Jewish War, Book 3, Chapter 8, No. 5.


I guess he learned that little trick form the Pharisees, as he writes this:


“The Pharisees believe that souls have an immortal vigour in them and that the virtuous shall have power to revive and live again: on account of which doctrines they are able greatly to persuade the body of people.”
Flavius Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18, Chapter 1, No. 3.


I don't see how these words can be misconstrued into thinking they mean anything other than reincarnation.




posted on Jan, 4 2013 @ 07:00 PM
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reply to post by sled735
 


Getting away from the Bible debates going on here...
Have you ever just met someone, and automatically felt so comfortable with them it was like you've known them all your life?
Yes, I have.

Also yes with the visiting a place and having a hair-raising feeling you KNOW you've been there before.

(The former ended in a major crisis-level disaster; the latter was an idyllic trip to Norway 16 years ago....)

Thanks for the resource link.



posted on Jan, 4 2013 @ 07:02 PM
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reply to post by windword
 


Reincarnation is a heresy in the Christian religion... meaning it doesn't matter how much evidence you show that it exists to a Christian... the church fathers say it doesn't... (well most of them)

So that means it can't exist...

Its a popular mind set in Christianity... deny anything other then what we've been taught

edit on 4-1-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2013 @ 07:13 PM
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Originally posted by windword
I don't see how these words can be misconstrued into thinking they mean anything other than reincarnation.

Then you're not trying very hard, because they can obviously be read as discussing resurrection.


The Pharisees believe that souls have an immortal vigour in them and that the virtuous shall have power to revive and live again.

... could mean reincarnation, could mean resurrection... But since the non-mystics didn't believe in reincarnation, it's not valid to cite a passage that could be taken both ways as indicating the less likely of the two.



posted on Jan, 4 2013 @ 07:16 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon


Not only is this contrary to reincarnation principles (as it undermines the idea of karma: bad men do not get another body of a lower form


Which text says this? This doesn't follow the gnostic idea or the hindu version of reincarnation so where did he get this idea from?

I don't know, why don't you email him and ask? His email is jphold@att.net



posted on Jan, 4 2013 @ 07:23 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword
I don't see how these words can be misconstrued into thinking they mean anything other than reincarnation.

Then you're not trying very hard, because they can obviously be read as discussing resurrection.


The Pharisees believe that souls have an immortal vigour in them and that the virtuous shall have power to revive and live again.

... could mean reincarnation, could mean resurrection... But since the non-mystics didn't believe in reincarnation, it's not valid to cite a passage that could be taken both ways as indicating the less likely of the two.


Isn't resurrection a physical thing?

You said yourself "the person is given a new body, not a fixed up old one"... correct?

The Pharisees believe that souls have an immortal vigour...

Which gives the impression that the soul is immortal not the body...

"they are again sent into pure bodies"... which obviously means the body of a baby, which is the ONLY thing on this earth that is "pure"... having recently been with God...

Resurrection implies the new body that is given is your same body...



I don't know, why don't you email him and ask?


Thanks but no thanks... i'll just hang on to the assumption that said author is slightly confused

edit on 4-1-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2013 @ 07:26 PM
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Originally posted by windword
Why didn't Jesus get baptized by the Pharisees in the temple? Because the Pharisee didn't perform baptisms in the temple. Baptisms were a mystical Essene thing, not practiced by mainstream Jews.

Actually, baptism, before Christ, was a Jewish purification ritual.


Baptism -- A religious ablution signifying purification or consecration. The natural method of cleansing the body by washing and bathing in water was always customary in Israel (see Ablution, Bathing). The washing of their clothes was an important means of sanctification enjoined on the Israelites before the Revelation on Mt. Sinai (Ex. xix. 10). The Rabbis connect with this the duty of bathing by complete immersion (Source)

It wasn't unique to the Essenes.


Jesus continually condemned and criticized the Pharisees, and they hated him. He had nothing to do with Sadducees. What's left but his being a representative of the community of the Essenes, a mystical Jewish religious order?

You seem to think that everyone in Israel was either a Pharisee or Sadducee, and barring that, they had to be Essenes. Do some research -- the vast majority of Israelites in the time of Jesus didn't belong to any of them. And to say that, because Jesus argued with and was hated by the leaders of the Pharisees, he had to be an Essene, that's an invalid conclusion.

He clearly didn't live an ascetic lifestyle -- he and his Apostles went to weddings and feasts, they spent time with others, including the unclean Samaritans, tax collectors and Gentiles, at least one of them was married, and so on.


I'm curious as to why you are so threatened by the thought of Jesus have been an Essene.

How is standing up for the truth being threatened?



posted on Jan, 4 2013 @ 07:31 PM
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Originally posted by Akragon
"they are again sent into pure bodies"... which obviously means the body of a baby, which is the ONLY thing on this earth that is "pure"... having recently been with God...

That's a gigantic leap in logic.


Resurrection implies the new body that is given is your same body...

No, resurrection is stated to give one a pure and incorruptible body -- exactly what was cited.



I don't know, why don't you email him and ask?


Thanks but no thanks... i'll just hang on to the assumption that said author is slightly confused

Well then you kind of lose the argument, because just saying "I don't agree with what he says about reincarnation" when you admit you don't know where he's coming from isn't much of a point.



posted on Jan, 4 2013 @ 07:51 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword
Why didn't Jesus get baptized by the Pharisees in the temple? Because the Pharisee didn't perform baptisms in the temple. Baptisms were a mystical Essene thing, not practiced by mainstream Jews.

Actually, baptism, before Christ, was a Jewish purification ritual.


Baptism -- A religious ablution signifying purification or consecration. The natural method of cleansing the body by washing and bathing in water was always customary in Israel (see Ablution, Bathing). The washing of their clothes was an important means of sanctification enjoined on the Israelites before the Revelation on Mt. Sinai (Ex. xix. 10). The Rabbis connect with this the duty of bathing by complete immersion (Source)

It wasn't unique to the Essenes.


The Essenes were a sect, they themselves claim, was established from the Order of Melchizedek and remanifestated through Moses. Baptism was a mystical ritual, outside of bathing or washing clothing, that they promulagated. They were sought after for those services, as well as other healing and spiritually restorative "retreats." Rebellious teenagers, and those who committed other crimes, were also sent to them for reformation, instead of stoning, as a last resort at rehab.



Jesus continually condemned and criticized the Pharisees, and they hated him. He had nothing to do with Sadducees. What's left but his being a representative of the community of the Essenes, a mystical Jewish religious order?

You seem to think that everyone in Israel was either a Pharisee or Sadducee, and barring that, they had to be Essenes. Do some research -- the vast majority of Israelites in the time of Jesus didn't belong to any of them. And to say that, because Jesus argued with and was hated by the leaders of the Pharisees, he had to be an Essene, that's an invalid conclusion.


Jesus was called Rabbi. He was a religious leader. He wasn't a "lone gunman"! He had a supportive community from which he arose, the Essenes. Ordinary, everyday people didn't just arise to the title of Rabbi without being backed by some religious order.


He clearly didn't live an ascetic lifestyle -- he and his Apostles went to weddings and feasts, they spent time with others, including the unclean Samaritans, tax collectors and Gentiles, at least one of them was married, and so on.


I'm curious as to why you are so threatened by the thought of Jesus have been an Essene.

How is standing up for the truth being threatened?


While I don't personally belief the scriptures that have Jesus as a wine biber, and there is an Essene answer to the "new wine" at the wedding story, and the multiplying of fish for the masses story, there is another side, as well.

The Essenes believed that the Messiah would appear as the reincarnation of their beloved teacher/master, who would lead them to a new truth. They identified Jesus as that person. The Essenes were the first Christians.


edit on 4-1-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2013 @ 07:51 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 



That's a gigantic leap in logic.


Perhaps... it sounded good though


What else has the purity of a new born child?

I don't have any children as of yet... but I've heard from many people they see God in the eyes of their newborn child...

Sometimes we just gotta take a leap...



No, resurrection is stated to give one a pure and incorruptible body -- exactly what was cited.


Which book says that?



Well then you kind of lose the argument, because just saying "I don't agree with what he says about reincarnation" when you admit you don't know where he's coming from isn't much of a point.


you offered his page... I just had a look over it... and it pretty much amounts to a lot of Nope, nuh uh, did not...*sticks out his tongue*

I don't debate with people like that.... its a waste of time, no matter how amusing it may be
edit on 4-1-2013 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2013 @ 08:13 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword
I don't see how these words can be misconstrued into thinking they mean anything other than reincarnation.

Then you're not trying very hard, because they can obviously be read as discussing resurrection.


The Pharisees believe that souls have an immortal vigour in them and that the virtuous shall have power to revive and live again.

... could mean reincarnation, could mean resurrection... But since the non-mystics didn't believe in reincarnation, it's not valid to cite a passage that could be taken both ways as indicating the less likely of the two.


Josephus believed in reincarnation. How can non-mystics even begin to understand any of these concepts anyway, whether it be reincarnation or resurrection? Where and when, did the pharisees expect this resurrection to occur, if not on earth and in a physical body?



posted on Jan, 4 2013 @ 09:35 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


You can take stuff out of context in the bible and make it say anything you want. Here's what Jesus was talking about when he said "all those who came before me were thieves and robbers", false Messiah's which according to Gamaliel, a well known rabbi when Christ was walking the earth, made a comment that was recorded in the book of Acts about there being uprisings from other false Messiah's before Jesus, whose rebellions were put down after they were executed.

Okay, lonewolf....
but, how does this relate to the concept of reincarnation?

You might be aware that I personally don't believe in the 'resurrection' of any dead body, including that most famous man of all time,
but I am very interested in how he might have been resuscitated by his support-system-peeps, AND been talking about REINCARNATION when he referred to John and Elijah.

The thread has been going well --- and I wasn't quite done yet....but, if it's going to turn to Bible scripture and zombie-reanimation arguments.... perhaps it's run its course.




Doesn't have anything to do with reincarnation, i was replying to Akragon's assertions that Zechariah was a false prophet while he was taking a verse in John 10 out of context to make it say what he wanted, despite what was actually being spoken of. Thank you for you concern.



posted on Jan, 4 2013 @ 09:35 PM
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Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


You can take stuff out of context in the bible and make it say anything you want. Here's what Jesus was talking about when he said "all those who came before me were thieves and robbers", false Messiah's which according to Gamaliel, a well known rabbi when Christ was walking the earth, made a comment that was recorded in the book of Acts about there being uprisings from other false Messiah's before Jesus, whose rebellions were put down after they were executed.

Okay, lonewolf....
but, how does this relate to the concept of reincarnation?

You might be aware that I personally don't believe in the 'resurrection' of any dead body, including that most famous man of all time,
but I am very interested in how he might have been resuscitated by his support-system-peeps, AND been talking about REINCARNATION when he referred to John and Elijah.

The thread has been going well --- and I wasn't quite done yet....but, if it's going to turn to Bible scripture and zombie-reanimation arguments.... perhaps it's run its course.




Doesn't have anything to do with reincarnation, i was replying to Akragon's assertions that Zechariah was a false prophet while he was taking a verse in John 10 out of context to make it say what he wanted, despite what was actually being spoken of. Thank you for your concern.
edit on 4-1-2013 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 4 2013 @ 09:41 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Technically I didn't say he was a false prophet....

And how do you figure I took anything out of context....

that's just an excuse because you don't agree with what it says in context... so you attempt to explain it with an entirely separate book... which isn't needed because what he said is crystal clear as long as you're not a Christian...

apparently




posted on Jan, 5 2013 @ 07:16 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


Forgive me for saying this, Akragon, but you interpret most Bible verses entirely different than the biblical scholars, but you already know that.

As for the "heavenly body" or incorruptible body, if you read the story of Jesus coming to the disciples after his resurrection, you'll get a pretty good idea of what it's going to be like.

The body will look much like the one you have now, but different in these ways....

- The body can appear and disappear at will (and transform)
- You will be able to eat and drink
- The body won't age
- The body won't get sick
- The body doesn't require sleep



posted on Jan, 5 2013 @ 07:33 AM
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reply to post by Akragon
 





Considering we know almost nothing about this Satan... This is nothing but ridiculous speculation...


Nothing?

Satan is mentioned 49 times in the Bible and that's not even counting the other names such as "prince of the air", "god of this world", etc..

I think you don't know much about Satan or the Bible because you don't read it.



posted on Jan, 5 2013 @ 08:01 AM
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Originally posted by Deetermined
reply to post by Akragon
 



As for the "heavenly body" or incorruptible body, if you read the story of Jesus coming to the disciples after his resurrection, you'll get a pretty good idea of what it's going to be like.

The body will look much like the one you have now, but different in these ways....
n
- The body can appear and disappear at will (and transform)
- You will be able to eat and drink
- The body won't age
- The body won't get sick
- The body doesn't require sleep



Clearly, Dee, you haven't thought this through.

Jesus was resurrected in his own flesh and blood body. Where is the evidence of the Saints' resurrected bodies? When does this resurrection, supposedly take place?

The new and resurrected body won't age? What age will it appear to be? The age of our death or some other age? Will there be children and grandparents in heaven?

This eating thing that you speak of, why? Why would we need or want to eat? Will we poop and pee in heaven?

Why is it written that Jesus ate fish and honeycomb, after his resurrection? Did he need nutrition. after his epic ordeal?

Why did he eat meat, that was stolen from the life a fish? Why did he eat honeycomb that was stolen from the combined effort of a hive of bees, for their's and their queen's survival?

Will there be the killing of animals and robbing of trees, birds and bees for food in heaven? Will I be able to eat a cheeseburger, sushi, a big fat BBQed T-Bone steak with a baked potato and apple pie?

Will picking apples still be a sin in heaven?



Why didn't Jesus manifest and eat "manna from heaven" and manifest Ambrosia, the nectar of the gods, to drink, like he did at the infamous wedding miracle?

Where is the Kingdom of Heaven? Why did Jesus say that is it being attacked violently?


edit on 5-1-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 5 2013 @ 10:39 AM
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reply to post by windword
 





Why is it written that Jesus ate fish and honeycomb, after his resurrection? Did he need nutrition. after his epic ordeal?

maybe to show that he dint die and was the same man with same needs as before and not a resurrected body.

Will there be the killing of animals and
robbing of trees, birds and bees for
food in heaven? Will I be able to eat a
cheeseburger, sushi, a big fat BBQed
T-Bone steak with a baked potato and
apple pie? Will picking apples still be a sin in
heaven?

is it a sin now to kill animals for food or take fruits?



posted on Jan, 5 2013 @ 10:53 AM
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Originally posted by windword

Jesus was resurrected in his own flesh and blood body. Where is the evidence of the Saints' resurrected bodies? When does this resurrection, supposedly take place?


Jesus came to his disciples in a way that they would recognize him, but not in the same body. Our bodies will return to the dust of the ground and we'll be given new bodies.

John 20:24-28

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

The fact that Jesus came and "stood in the midst" even with the "doors being shut" is significant in describing what his abilities were.

John 20:30

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:


The new and resurrected body won't age? What age will it appear to be? The age of our death or some other age? Will there be children and grandparents in heaven?


The Bible doesn't tell us what age we will be it only tells us over and over that the body will be "incorruptible" and incapable of death, so there is no need to age.


This eating thing that you speak of, why? Why would we need or want to eat? Will we poop and pee in heaven?


Eating has always been a breaking of bread, bonding and social experience for people. This will not change in heaven.

Revelation 21 & 22 tell us about the river of life and the tree of life being in heaven and other trees along the river. It may be figurative, but since we know that Jesus was able to eat, we will be able to do that as well. Our bodies will not be designed the same way obviously, so no, I don't think we'll be pooping and peeing.


Why is it written that Jesus ate fish and honeycomb, after his resurrection? Did he need nutrition. after his epic ordeal?


No nutrition needed. Our bodies will be "incorruptible". We will not go hungry and we will not thirst. We won't need to eat, but we'll be able to do so if we choose.


Will there be the killing of animals and robbing of trees, birds and bees for food in heaven?


There will be no need to.


Why didn't Jesus manifest and eat "manna from heaven" and manifest Ambrosia, the nectar of the gods, to drink, like he did at the infamous wedding miracle?


He was no longer "human", but the full extent of what he showed to his disciples is not known based on all of the accounts of Jesus' appearance to his disciples.


Where is the Kingdom of Heaven? Why did Jesus say that is it being attacked violently?


The book of Matthew is the only book that uses the term "kingdom of heaven" to also refer to the nation of Israel.

I don't know why, other than the fact that during the Millennium here on earth, the existence will be very similar to that of heaven in mannerism, but not physically (people will still multiply, age and die during this period). After the Millennium is over and the current earth is replaced with the "New Jerusalem" there will not be a sun, moon or oceans like there is now.



posted on Jan, 5 2013 @ 10:57 AM
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Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by windword
 





Why is it written that Jesus ate fish and honeycomb, after his resurrection? Did he need nutrition. after his epic ordeal?

maybe to show that he dint die and was the same man with same needs as before and not a resurrected body.


Yup, that's what I was thinking.



Will there be the killing of animals and
robbing of trees, birds and bees for
food in heaven? Will I be able to eat a
cheeseburger, sushi, a big fat BBQed
T-Bone steak with a baked potato and
apple pie? Will picking apples still be a sin in
heaven?

is it a sin now to kill animals for food or take fruits?


Sometimes.

As you can see in the picture I presented, the angel is clearly warning the child that stealing those apples, who's tree is inside a walled area, is a sin. Many implication there....


The way we kill out meat today is sinful. That's not to say a hunter, killing quickly or humanely, or small farmer that slaughters one of his chickens for dinner, is sinning. But most of us don't get out meat that way.

If there's meat eating in heaven the vegans and the PETA people are going to be very upset!



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