Let's talk about REINCARNATION again....by special request.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by akushla99
It is apparent that the Apostles had an incomplete understanding of how God does what he does, or how what has been set in motion by God, plays out...

All questions that relate to 'being cursed at birth' show a misunderstanding of the mechanisms that operate through us/with us/by us...that are misunderstood by many...

As I said, that was the cultural impression that the Jewish people of that time held. It wasn't unique to the Apostles, and isn't held today (so far as I know.)

Yes...how stubborn mankind is to hold onto outdated concepts of life, death etc...
Once again, a polarising of the belief systems has occured, to the erroneous assumption that, this part of the world (and 1 book) holds the last say on this subject, in particular...it is a disturbingly myopic view...

A99

reply to post by wildtimes

No, it doesn't. It encourages virtue - because if you know you will be held accountable (just like with Abrahamic 'Day of Judgment') you are less likely to be destructive.

There's no reason for "eternal torture" - we are all capable of learning. Why would "God" impose an "eternal" life-sentence of torture if he knows we can do better?

And if WE know we can do better - If every toddler who falls over learning to walk has - as punishment - their legs amputated by their parents, what the hell good does that do?? NOTHING! It results only in a bunch of legless toddlers.

Can you see?? If you told the child "walk correctly the first time, or I will cut your legs off!", don't you think someone would swoop in and snatch that child away from you so that he or she had at least a CHANCE?

Well said.

Father gives everyone a chance to learn. If you fail a test that he has given you, you are provided at a later time to show him that you have learned, if you fail again, there will be another chance, but be sure that you will be going through some experiences that will help you in your learning, so when the test comes back around again, you will pass.

Originally posted by Akragon

That's great!

Lets see what else he said....

Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

In John 10, Jesus was talking about the gods and prophets of Ba'al.

The same ones that Elijah fought against.

reply to post by Akragon

Glad you brought this passage up...

Read it closely... have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush "God" spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

Now at this time when Jesus said this... was Abraham, Isaac, an Jacob alive or dead?

Dead.... that's right... and what was the next verse? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Jesus was talking about the resurrection. This is why he referred to God as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He was telling everyone that all three (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) were resurrected and alive. That's why he was referred to as the God of the living.

I guess they aren't the only ones that erred in their understanding.

Originally posted by Deetermined

Originally posted by Akragon

That's great!

Lets see what else he said....

Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

In John 10, Jesus was talking about the gods and prophets of Ba'al.

The same ones that Elijah fought against.

Interesting assumption... considering neither are mentioned...

So when he said ALL that came before me.... He actually meant "some that came before me"...

Jesus was talking about the resurrection. This is why he referred to God as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He was telling everyone that all three (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) were resurrected and alive. That's why he was referred to as the God of the living.

Yet another assumption...

Now the resurrection is a physical thing right?

Like Jesus all three of their bodies were raised from the dead?

Any proof for this in the books that mention these people? I don't recall reading any of them were "resurrected" but I could be wrong...

Heres a question... IF someone like Jacob was resurrected, who was basically a general in his own little army... who likely killed hundreds, if not thousands of people in his life.

Why was peter left behind?

Jesus said he will be the head of his church right?

Whos in peters tomb?

en.wikipedia.org...

of course im sure theres no way to prove the remains of peter are actually there... So lets just use basically anyone who was "resurrected" aside from Jesus?

How about any one of the popes?

Assuming at least a few of them were resurrected... I would bet pretty much anything that their remains still sit in their grave...

So without any scriptural proof these three were resurrected... your statement is just speculation.

Of course so is mine.... but that's beside the point

Though on the other hand, the spirit is eternal... so ya im sure they are alive...

Not in the way you believe though.. IMHO

I guess they aren't the only ones that erred in their understanding.

Apparently...

reply to post by Akragon


Don't forget the "ever" part either. But I guess "all" and "ever" really mean "some" when you're put into a corner.

Yet another nail in the coffin of the OT god. He was most definitely an imposter in my opinion.

Originally posted by sled735
Oh, Poop! I can't read Portuguese, and my translator isn't working on the PDF! What a let-down! Sigh....

Please let us know when this is ready in the English version.

Thanks

Hi Sled735, try your translator in this pdf - it's an ebook and not scanned pages.

Exiled from Capella

Originally posted by Taunos

Originally posted by sled735
Oh, Poop! I can't read Portuguese, and my translator isn't working on the PDF! What a let-down! Sigh....

Please let us know when this is ready in the English version.

Thanks

Hi Sled735, try your translator in this pdf - it's an ebook and not scanned pages.

Exiled from Capella

Thank you, Taunos, but it isn't working.

Just be sure to let me know when the English version comes out.

I've read up to page 225 on the Spiritist PDF. I like what I'm reading. I'll have to share it with some people who want to believe in reincarnation, but think it goes against what Jesus taught.

reply to post by sled735



It does not goes against what Jesus taught, actually all books are based on Jesus teachings and work. But it shows a different view, in my opinion a more objective one.

Originally posted by Akragon
en.wikipedia.org...

of course im sure theres no way to prove the remains of peter are actually there... So lets just use basically anyone who was "resurrected" aside from Jesus?

I'm not sure why the person that you're responding to said what they did, but the standard Christian belief is that no one, apart from Jesus, has been resurrected, or will be, until the Second Coming and Final Judgement, and it is a new, incorruptible, body that the faithful receive, not just a "cleaned up set of old bones".

There are special cases, like Enoch, Elijah and Mary, but for the most part, everyone is viewed to be in a spirit state, with material resurrection coming later. There are some views that are... let's be charitable and call them "tangental" to that standard view, like Swedenborg, which claim that people who die immediately receive a material form, but even they agree that it's not constituted from Earthly remains.

reply to post by Akragon

By the way, Zechariah was one of those people that came before him... obviously

You can take stuff out of context in the bible and make it say anything you want. Here's what Jesus was talking about when he said "all those who came before me were thieves and robbers", false Messiah's which according to Gamaliel, a well known rabbi when Christ was walking the earth, made a comment that was recorded in the book of Acts about there being uprisings from other false Messiah's before Jesus, whose rebellions were put down after they were executed.

Acts 5:34-39

34 Then one in the council stood up, a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law held in respect by all the people, and commanded them to put the apostles outside for a little while. 35 And he said to them: “Men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what you intend to do regarding these men. 36 For some time ago Theudas rose up, claiming to be somebody. A number of men, about four hundred, joined him. He was slain, and all who obeyed him were scattered and came to nothing. 37 After this man, Judas of Galilee rose up in the days of the census, and drew away many people after him. He also perished, and all who obeyed him were dispersed. 38 And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; 39 but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it—lest you even be found to fight against God.”

So you see, there were no shortage of men in those days claiming to be Christ. None of the major or minor prophets were false prophets, least of all Zechariah as Zechariah's prophecies match the book of Revelation.

Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by Deetermined

Interesting assumption... considering neither are mentioned...

So when he said ALL that came before me.... He actually meant "some that came before me"...

There are some who think that "all who came before me" (John 10:8) might have been the Pharisees based on scripture in Ezekiel 34, but when Jesus said "all who came", I think they were the messengers (angels) who were sent from above to help lead the nations, but led them astray instead.

Here's an example:

Exodus 23:13

13 And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.

Isaiah 26:13-14

13 O Lord our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name.

14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.

and here...

Ezekiel 28:12-16

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

The Bible says that in the days of judgement, that all will be judged before the second death (Revelation 20). For the verses in Isaiah 26, it's clear that these will not be raised, even to be judged, for they have already been judged. They must have been messengers of God from above that fell.

We already know that Jesus didn't consider all human Israeli leaders and prophets as being thieves and robbers, otherwise he wouldn't have held such high regard for King David or the prophets in which he quoted from scripture.

Here is a list of the Old Testament verses in which Jesus quoted. He quoted from 24 books of the Old Testament and over 60 different scriptures.

www.biblepgs.com...

Originally posted by Akragon

Now the resurrection is a physical thing right?

Like Jesus all three of their bodies were raised from the dead?

Any proof for this in the books that mention these people? I don't recall reading any of them were "resurrected" but I could be wrong...

Here's what we know. Jesus said that God was the God of the living and he made it clear that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were among the living. Here's how we know that Abraham was among the living...

John 8:56 (Jesus speaking)

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

Luke 16:22-26

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

reply to post by Deetermined


Hey, Dee.....
Hi again.

I'm enjoying the discussion between you and the cat; but...
what do you think about REINCARNATION?

Beyond the eternal debate about how the Bible DOES or DOESN'T teach it?

I mean, it's painfully obvious (or buoyantly obvious?) that the Bible can be interpreted both ways:

There is AMPLE scholarly work on both ends: That Jesus DID teach it (and the Jews at his time believed it as well); or that it is misinterpreted when he says 'This is Elijah', and the part about 'them' not recognizing him (as John the B) ....

But.....
I really want to know - is there any tiny fragment in your deepest mind that - NOTWITHSTANDING Biblical interpretation - has a PERSONAL OPINION?

If that opinion is "NOT POSSIBLE NO WAY" - can you offer anything other than your chosen interpretation of the Bible as evidence?

In this thread there have been several out-sourced submissions of information. I'm inclined to look at the mixture of them and consider which are most actually 'plausible'......

we have actual people - young people - who say they remember past lives, ... nay, INSIST they had past lives. Those children are attended by a scientist, who carefully and painstakingly double-checks for any sign of a hoax or collaboration between the 'remembered' family and the 'current' family. Turned out they were legitimate.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

You can take stuff out of context in the bible and make it say anything you want. Here's what Jesus was talking about when he said "all those who came before me were thieves and robbers", false Messiah's which according to Gamaliel, a well known rabbi when Christ was walking the earth, made a comment that was recorded in the book of Acts about there being uprisings from other false Messiah's before Jesus, whose rebellions were put down after they were executed.

Okay, lonewolf....
but, how does this relate to the concept of reincarnation?

You might be aware that I personally don't believe in the 'resurrection' of any dead body, including that most famous man of all time,
but I am very interested in how he might have been resuscitated by his support-system-peeps, AND been talking about REINCARNATION when he referred to John and Elijah.

The thread has been going well --- and I wasn't quite done yet....but, if it's going to turn to Bible scripture and zombie-reanimation arguments.... perhaps it's run its course.

reply to post by wildtimes


My interpretation of the people rising from their graves around the time of Jesus' crucifixion is people realizing who they were and are. They didn't literally rise from the dead, they just accepted the fact that they were reincarnated which could be seen as "rising from the dead" allegorically.

I personally believe that Jesus died on the cross and wasn't resurrected nor healed, they just added in all the parts after the crucifixion like the angels over the entrance to the cave, the resurrection (duh ), the transfiguration, etc.

I also believe Jesus was not a man but a woman, Mary specifically. I think Paul's insistence on women staying quiet while in church points to this. Also, Da Vinci's works point toward "him" being a her as well.

But yeah... he/she most definitely taught the concept of reincarnation, only the church changed his/her message because it's easier to control people when you convince them they only have one chance.

Your analogy with the tree earlier was great btw. You really hit the nail on the head with that one, good job.

reply to post by wildtimes

The thread has been going well --- and I wasn't quite done yet....but, if it's going to turn to Bible scripture and zombie-reanimation arguments.... perhaps it's run its course.

Indeed. It's interesting to look at the Bible to see if it does support reincarnation, but it isn't the ultimate word of inspired truth on the subject. Certainly other contemporary scholars and literature did support reincarnation.

In all honesty, I don't get the concept of resurrection at all! It seems to me to be a manipulation of the concept of reincarnation to fit a particular brand of fear and limitation. It appears to be most illogical.

What a waste of God's creative energy, to create a planet of such beauty and awe, only to be enjoyed by his most favored creation for a few measly years, before an individual is crushed by the wheel of time, never to enjoy it again. Then, that individual is thrown into hell or passes into eternal bliss, while the whole thing starts over again, with a brand new soul, with no previous existence, thrown into a creation to either be embraced or discarded by it's creator.

Nonsense!

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Wow...I'm SO GLAD you shared your beliefs here! Very interesting......

and completely reasonable.

--------------------------------------

So....

I also believe Jesus was not a man but a woman, Mary specifically. I think Paul's insistence on women staying quiet while in church points to this. Also, Da Vinci's works point toward "him" being a her as well.

But yeah... he/she most definitely taught the concept of reincarnation, only the church changed his/her message because it's easier to control people when you convince them they only have one chance.

Your analogy with the tree earlier was great btw. You really hit the nail on the head with that one, good job.

Thanks for the analogy bump.......
however, this idea of 'Jesus' being 'Mary', and Pau's insistence that 'women stay quiet' are totally new concepts to me.

I'm aware of the efeminate suggestions in Da Vinci;

but - 'Paul' (if he existed; and further, if he wrote the letters attributed to him to the attributed recipients......) supposedly had several affluent women as his 'remote ministers' or whatever you want to call them.

I hadn't been aware of your theory before! Nice!!

reply to post by windword

Certainly other contemporary scholars and literature did support reincarnation.

In all honesty, I don't get the concept of resurrection at all! It seems to me to be a manipulation of the concept of reincarnation to fit a particular brand of fear and limitation. It appears to be most illogical.

Yeah, I can't get around (or over, or under, or through) that one, either.

And, yeah, the idea of reincarnation goes way back before the time of the BC/AD (BCE/CE) change-over.