Let's talk about REINCARNATION again....by special request.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

I realize this is all a lot for you to absorb, having no previous exposure to it.
Here is a link to Judy Goodman's Q&A page
Lots of excellent questions there....and her answers.

I'll keep looking for the "population explosion" info - I heard her speak about it, but haven't found it online yet. Klass? Do you have a quick online source?

According to the information presented to us in the books the number of spirits "waiting" to reincarnate is 5x the number of humans living on Earth. It is not a random process, it actually is carefully prepared and programed, I think you can agree that a process so overwhelming as a new life cycle can not be taken lightly. There are many spiritual "cities" in Earth (do not think that as a valley where dead people wander, but more like a actual city with everything we have but higher evolution, morals and etc).

reply to post by logical7

Here's yet another interesting site that discusses reincarnation's principles, research, and links for cross-references.
www.iisis.net...
Particularly it offers "case studies"

reply to post by wildtimes

Nada. But this may be helpful.

...the ego is used to thinking in terms of "I," or the separate self. But let's set the ego aside for a moment. Your soul is your deepest consciousness, the source of your awareness. To me, consciousness is a singular that has no plural. One gold can be made into many ornaments, one fire makes many flames, one ocean many waves. Souls are patterns of movement and behavior in a single consciousness. Call it the mind of God or the womb of creation, this single source can give rise to as many souls as the universe calls forth, just as the ocean can have a few waves or many.

Deepak Chopra

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

and ultimate purpose is to disappear?, why not just die and be it the end.

I'm not the one who said we "disappear". That was someone else (another Muslim) mocking his Buddhist friend's beliefs.

I don't think we "disappear". I think we are reunited in spiritual consciousness with the Divine Source - as described by those who have had NDEs, for example. That same unconditional, all-LOVE, all-PEACE, and the wisdom to appreciate it.
Furthermore, I believe once we have achieved that level of spiritual balance, we can CHOOSE to come back to help and teach, but it is not required.

practically it means disappearing, losing individuality, if all 7 billion souls are blended together, would one soul know who it was?
Now these 7 billions are a tiny part of the Source. Can you imagine our insignificance once we join the Source??
I wouldnt back mocking of any belief.
That disappearing is becoming humble, like watching the night sky, galaxies and realising our tininess, and living with humility after that humbling experience.
Uniting with the source is like falling in love just unimaginably more powerful, the ego boundaries collapsing and "Me" becoming "We" opening a flood gate of Love and in case with the Source "Me" becoming "Nothing" we are just too much trained to believe that "nothing" is bad. The trick is to unlearn that.
A baby cries when he/she sees mom crying because the "Me" hasnt seperated yet. So a baby is at "peace" even when all it does is eat, sleep and poop.
We have to become babies again but for that we need to know what we learnt thats not baby like. We have to be conciously aware about ourself not hope that in future lives we will reach that stage accidentally.

Originally posted by logical7
reply to post by Klassified

 

From what I've read and heard, souls reincarnate in an infinite number of places and realities, not just on earth. By the same token, many do continue to incarnate over and over right here. So the influx of souls from other places drives the population.

isnt that one more theory to fill the inconsistencies of the theory in discussion.
But the question is why influx here, people "there" would think that reincarnation is working and less coming back more joining the source!! Which would be wrong. So even if depopulation happens here we can never be sure if reincarnation works or its just that "there" is now "here"
in short this new theory just blasts the theory it came to support.

In all honesty, I find reincarnation to be like any other belief system. It's a matter of faith for those who accept it as a truth. I personally, find it interesting to contemplate, meditate, and talk about. But just like the cult I spent decades of my life in, it still comes down to faith.

At least reincarnation isn't out to kill, maim, and destroy those who don't believe their way. That by itself, makes it attractive as an alternative for some. The only reason I lean toward an afterlife at all, isn't the mountain of reading and study I've done. It's because something in my gut tells me this isn't the end, it's just the beginning.

reply to post by Klassified

At least reincarnation isn't out to kill, maim, and destroy those who don't believe their way. That by itself, makes it attractive as an alternative for some. The only reason I lean toward an afterlife at all, isn't the mountain of reading and study I've done. It's because something in my gut tells me this isn't the end, it's just the beginning.

Same here.
I think perhaps as we get older (depending on our "Soul Age") we consider these things more.
Although, my daughter has a very firm grasp on her Soul Age; and while I did not bring my kids up in any particular religion, I exposed them to all the varieties of thought. She is a scientist - a material science engineer, precisely - and now that I think of it...what a perfect "parallel" to the Creation/Creator, eh??

She's an older soul than I am, and we both know it. It's really fascinating to think about.

reply to post by Klassified

In all honesty, I find reincarnation to be like any other belief system. It's a matter of faith for those who accept it as a truth. I personally, find it interesting to contemplate, meditate, and talk about. But just like the cult I spent decades of my life in, it still comes down to faith. At least reincarnation isn't out to kill, maim, and destroy those who don't believe their way. That by itself, makes it attractive as an alternative for some. The only reason I lean toward an afterlife at all, isn't the mountain of reading and study I've done. It's because something in my gut tells me this isn't the end, it's just the beginning.

the only thing i will disagree to, is that reincarnation is considered objectively better than other belief systems based on their fruits.
If a person believing in eternal hell can commit a crime then will belief in reincarnation make him better or worst? I am afraid of an objective answer to that.
A passive flexible belief is not any better than a rigid authoritative one, for what i know a passive one could outperform others in collective damage but not take the blame as blame will go to individuals and not to a belief system as in organised religion.

reply to post by logical7


I think the point is that beliefs doesn't make a person better or worst, that's all based on a person free will. The reincarnation process does not exclude or save a person from its sins. Every action has a reaction and that is true for all you do in your life, it maybe not happen in this life or next, but remember that nothing goes unnoticed

reply to post by logical7

I see what you're saying. Karma however, is roughly equivalent to hell.

Biblically, the unrepentant and unsaved suffer an eternal separation from god in their afterlife.

For the reincarnationist, the unrepentant suffers bad karma for previous actions in their next life, but not eternally. They can rise above their previous actions by "accruing" good karma now, and then.

So in my opinion only. A reincarnationist, serious about their beliefs, would actually be more inclined to do well in their lifetime, because they wouldn't want to spend another lifetime reaping what they did previously before they could move on and up. This to me, sounds much more reasonable than eternal damnation for a lack of belief in an angry, and vindictive god.

This little nugget is from the Intro to the "Spiritism" link that was posted earlier (many thanks to member Taunos for that!)

Furthermore, it is said that reincarnation in a material body is the consequence of
the impresses of the soul, whereas the purified soul finds itself exempt from further reincarnation.

This is exactly what Spiritism teaches, only adding that the soul which, having made good
resolutions while in the spiritual world and possessing some acquired knowledge, brings less
defects, more virtues and intuitive ideas on being reborn than it had in the preceding incarnation. In
this way each existence shows both intellectual and moral progress

Socrates, like Jesus, did not write anything himself; but both of them had this "spiritual" awareness.
This is good reading, guys and gals!

Originally posted by Taunos
reply to post by logical7

 

I think the point is that beliefs doesn't make a person better or worst, that's all based on a person free will. The reincarnation process does not exclude or save a person from its sins. Every action has a reaction and that is true for all you do in your life, it maybe not happen in this life or next, but remember that nothing goes unnoticed

true but reincarnation does allow to delay making ammends and reforms, "whats the hurry" and what i believe is that if a belief doesnt influence behaviour and actions then its not a belief just an interesting hobby.
And reincarnation actually when put in behaviour encourages passiveness!!

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by sled735

 

The body is appointed once to die. It does NOT say it is appointed once for man to live.

What are you talking about? The verse totally says that it is appointed for man to die once. If a man can only die once, then he only lives once. The Greek word for man in Hebrews 9:27 is ανθροπος. This word means human beings, not the body—there are other Greek words that communicate that (βιος for example).

There are numerous instances of the dead being brought back to life in the Bible. What happened to these people, in the end? Did they finally die, again, or do you think that they are still alive, living immortal lives, somewhere on earth or in heaven?

Elijah resurrects the Widow of Zarephath's son.

1Ki 17:21
And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.

Elisha resurrects Shunamite's son

2Ki 4:32
When Elisha came into the house, he saw the child lying dead on his bed.
33 So he went in and shut the door behind the two of them and prayed to the Lord.
34 Then he went up and lay on the child, putting his mouth on his mouth, his eyes on his eyes, and his hands on his hands. And as he stretched himself upon him, the flesh of the child became warm.
35 Then he got up again and walked once back and forth in the house, and went up and stretched himself upon him. The child sneezed seven times, and the child opened his eyes.

Random man resurrected from touching the bones of Elisha

2 Kings 13:21
And it came to pass, as they were burying a man, that, behold, they spied a band of men; and they cast the man into the sepulchre of Elisha: and when the man was let down, and touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood up on his feet.

Jesus resurrects Synagogue ruler Jairus' 12-year-old daughter

Mark 5:35
While he yet spake, there came from the ruler of the synagogue's house certain which said, Thy daughter is dead: why troublest thou the Master any further?

41 And he took the damsel by the hand, and said unto her, Talitha cumi; which is, being interpreted, Damsel, I say unto thee, arise.

42 And straightway the damsel arose, and walked; for she was of the age of twelve years. And they were astonished with a great astonishment.

43 And he charged them straitly that no man should know it; and commanded that something should be given her to eat.

Jesus resurrects Lazarus from the dead

John 1:43
When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.

Peter resurrects Tabitha also known as Dorcas

Acts 9:40
Peter sent them all out of the room; then he got down on his knees and prayed. Turning toward the dead woman, he said, “Tabitha, get up.” She opened her eyes, and seeing Peter she sat up.

41 He took her by the hand and helped her to her feet. Then he called for the believers, especially the widows, and presented her to them alive.

And finally, Eutychus resurrected by Paul, the same guy that said "It is appointed for man to die once!

Acts 20:9
And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead.

10 And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him.

11 When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed.

12 And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little comforted.

Seems Paul contradicts his own philosophy by the action of his own deeds! Perhaps, some people do die more than once!

reply to post by wildtimes

the soul which, having made good resolutions while in the spiritual world and possessing some acquired knowledge, brings less defects, more virtues and intuitive ideas on being reborn than it had in the preceding incarnation. In this way each existence shows both intellectual and moral progress

so going backwards younger souls are bad, arrogant, virtueless?
.
I would like your views not views of others that you would find after surfing.
It almost seems that you 'want' the idea of reincarnation to be true, rather than pondering over it being possibly false.

reply to post by wildtimes


I'm really happy that you are enjoying it

Now regarding Jesus. Every planet in its evolution level has a "ruler" (do not think about it in the way we understand the idea of a ruler, but a love and caring one). For planet Earth, Jesus is our "guide", by saying this I do not disregard other belief systems deities - but I'll not go into that topic now.

Jesus is way above our level. We are all brothers, sons of God, but everyone is in a level of moral progress. Pure spirits have an absolute moral, something we are far from understanding. Jesus came to Earth in a time of great need, where the moral was low and the ideas where so corrupted that an action had to be taken. According to the books took 400 years of preparation for Jesus to reincarnate, you can picture now how pure he is and how his devotion to us is far more expressive than his life as human demonstrates (now you think that everything was planed 400 years before it actually happened and things will keep expanding from this notion).

Time has passed and countless interpretations of his words were presented, some disturbed and modified for corrupted proposes. But its essence remains, which is love towards your brothers and charity.

reply to post by logical7


I've given you my views; and I've attempted to provide supporting sources in an effort to clarify that I did not just "make all this up" on my own....

here's another snippet, regarding the various places where souls reincarnate:

THE DIFFERENT STATES OF THE SOUL IN ITS SPIRITUAL
WANDERINGS
2. The house of the Father is the Universe. The 'different mansions' are the worlds which
circulate in infinite space and offer the Spirits who incarnate on them dwelling places which
correspond their progress.

You first ask for my views, and ask how I arrived at them - I told you, it was intuitive. I later found that others had come to the same idea.

In Taunos' link there is fabulous prose that reflects what I think. Kardec links Jesus with Socrates and Plato, for example....
you see, log7, in my view, the TRUTH is true for EVERYONE.
It is not determined by a show of hands; yet at the same time, finding cross-cultural nuggets that connect the dots of doctrine and "religion" leads us more to the Truth that is Universal. THAT is the one I'm looking for....

In my opinion, it is VERY EXCITING to find that others before me (and at the same time as me) discover - or, intuit - these things.

reply to post by logical7


I think you should see younger souls as ignorant (not a pejorative idea), not bad or anything. I'm far from understanding Gods definitions and these are my beliefs. Passing through life cycles the soul will gather experiences according to its life, maybe good or bad experiences can happen and these are defined by its choices.

reply to post by logical7

It almost seems that you 'want' the idea of reincarnation to be true, rather than pondering over it being possibly false.

LL!!
Who 'wants' to be shown they are mistaken?
Do you consider that your Muslim faith may be "mistaken"? Or do you 'want' it to be true?

I'm looking; seeking. Finding the common denominator. I don't think it's Christianity; nor is it Islam; nor any "dogma" or "canon" developed by only one group.

The things that hold true to EVERYONE are the things I look at and hold as sacred. Therefore, by definition, I reject any one "traditional religion" as being "THE RIGHT ONE". They are all subject to possible fallacy.

A smile is a smile; laughter is laughter; tears are tears; grief is grief - FOR EVERYONE!

A child in a dying village in some distant place can smile, just as readily as my daughter or son. THAT s a universal truth.
Love
Grief
Joy
Laughter
Smiling
Weeping
Fear
Longing

The universal human condition. THAT is the Truth. I want to understand what is true for everyone! Not just Muslims or Christians or Buddhists or Hindus or Jews or Pagans. WHAT IS THE COMMON DENOMINATOR - the thing that stays constant from era to era.....

Yeah, I 'want' it to be true, because the other "options" - also unproven - are for me, just as possibly false, and FAR less forgiving and hopeful.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by adjensen

 

Without accumulated memory, reincarnation makes no sense.

How good would you be at the piano if you forgot everything you learned every time you sat down to play?

But, you see, adjensen, this is the point. We have accumulated memory.....each of us is born with predispositions to certain facets of physical life; the study of the different "intelligences" or "talents" makes this seem pretty simple to me...

OTOH, are these talents simply "inherited DNA"?

Yes. Our lot in life is the result of our genetics and upbringing, it is not a matter of accumulated memory, even suppressed memories. The former is demonstrable through science, while support for the latter is minimal, and anecdotal in nature.

Do you have any ideas about "karma"?

Karma addressed the "justice" that people want done, for those who don't believe in judgement, but it has no bearing on my argument that reincarnation is pointless without accumulated memory.

Another poster suggested that starving children might be those who were wealthy but selfish in a previous life. That satisfies the notion of karma, in that the fat cat is getting his comeuppance, but given that there is no memory, on the part of the starving child that they were once rich, or on the fat cat, that he was once a starving child, there is no feedback mechanism to improve things.

And, in the end, it is unjust, in that it requires people to be miserable. Consider you and I -- let's say that we're both wealthy, but you're generous to the hungry and I'm selfish. You're so generous, in fact, that you manage to wipe out global poverty and there are no more starving children. But after I die, in order to fulfill the necessities of karma, a starving child needs to exist, in order for me to get my comeuppance, so you cannot wipe out global poverty.

The concept that, after death, we get all of our memories back and that somehow changes things, strikes me as a lot of overhead that still doesn't answer the question of how anyone progresses by going back and living yet another undirected and random life.

reply to post by logical7

If a person believing in eternal hell can commit a crime then will belief in reincarnation make him better or worst? I am afraid of an objective answer to that.
A passive flexible belief is not any better than a rigid authoritative one, for what i know a passive one could outperform others in collective damage but not take the blame as blame will go to individuals and not to a belief system as in organised religion.

Okay, "blame."

Let's go there.
A person who believes in hell CAN commit a crime; if he believes in reincarnation, rather, he will know that what he does to others will be revisited UPON HIMSELF. In the same degree (or 7-fold; or 3-fold; or whatever - it's all "Karma"; you reap what you sow. There are a variety of formulas you choose to use as a measurement.

The point is COMPASSION. Do no harm! That is also a pretty standard universal premise.
Among non-sociopaths, at least.

reply to post by adjensen

Another poster suggested that starving children might be those who were wealthy but selfish in a previous life. That satisfies the notion of karma, in that the fat cat is getting his comeuppance, but given that there is no memory, on the part of the starving child that they were once rich, or on the fat cat, that he was once a starving child, there is no feedback mechanism to improve things.

But, there is!
It happens between lifetimes, while we are "home" (as some members have coined the idea, which works for me).

The soul needs time to "regroup", to "reflect", to own its business...I don't believe souls IMMEDIATELY get reborn. No, there's a contemplation, a resting, a "recess" - and a conference period, where the ethereal safely and patiently provides time to consider one's actions.

It works that way with any trauma - we need time to PROCESS things before we can understand them.
In terms of "infinity" or "everlasting" existence - why would 70 or 100 or even 800 (yeah, sure, Noah & Co lived for centuries...mm hm...) be enough? No, nonono....to get a glimpse of the Source, the Divine, we must practice....

someone else (windword, I think) brought up piano-playing. Same concept. When we sleep, our brains "coordinate" the skills or experiences or knowledge we have acquired while awake. Staying up all night studying is LESS productive than studying and then "Sleeping on it."

Brain development science has proven that.
Same with soul development, seems to me....we need time to "rest" and "process"....then we go back to class.

I think you're getting hung up on this "aimless" "no memory" thing. There are memories on the spiritual level; and growth. There are periods of reflection and planning for future experiences.

As for the starving child scenario -
unless EVERYONE pitches in to end starvation, it won't work. You see? I alone cannot wipe out "starvation" except temporarily, as long as there is someone else who comes along and CAUSES starvation, you are right. In that regard, we can see that until WE ARE ALL on the same page, the cycle continues.

And it's blatantly obvious that we - humanity on Earth - have NOT come to that place. NOT YET.