Let's talk about REINCARNATION again....by special request.

reply to post by wildtimes

from where do we get those innate "talents"?

are you extending the theory of spiritual accumulated learning also on talents?
Then the question that does arise is, are new souls that get born talentless?
Again if we include karma then, a mentally retarded guy is that way because he is paying his karma or he is just a fresh soul.
Also some very important and curious questions, What are the lessons that need to be learned? And are they same for each?
How to know them now? and not that only a soul which left the body knows it and forgets them after entering new body.
This is a theory that can be proved only after death,actually as hacksaw said it wouldnt be proved even to oneself as it would be forgotten once a body is accuired. But i wouldnt want to have a theory that can never be proved right but could be proved wrong and that painful realisation comes after i die and no going back as hoped while i wasted my life banking on second chances. Logically i would prefer one life taking full responsibility for my actions and acountable for them not depending on my soul leading me blindly to what it needs to learn. I am not a change of clothes for any soul. I am the soul and the body.

reply to post by wildtimes

Part of the human condition is this nagging urge to know what in the world we are doing here....

yes thats the urge and very strong one "PURPOSE OF LIFE"
this could be a new thread. But islam does have an answer for it. It would be off topic here.
Anyways,
back to reincarnation, in simple words, reincarnation tells me that i have a purpose but i'l never consiously know it yet ultimately achieve it!!!

reply to post by logical7

What are the lessons that need to be learned? And are they same for each?
How to know them now?

The lessons involve having every possible experience that advances our "soul" to understanding the Divine.

Yes, I think we will all get there eventually - so, while the particular "coursework" may vary, the LEARNED truth - the outcome - is the goal. Learning to be charitable, compassionate, accepting, tolerant, helpful, kind....
to hold sacred existence itself -

I believe the "master souls" DO know it now - and they come back by choice, to teach others. Such as Jesus did, and Buddha, and Krishna; Ghandi, the Dalai Lama...
each of us has something precious and unique to offer the rest of the world. One lifetime of a few decades is NOT ENOUGH TIME to learn all there is to know by living here. Every day I know I'm closer to my physical demise, and I mourn the fact that there is just NOT ENOUGH TIME to do everything I want to do, learn all I want to learn, find answers to all my questions, explore all of my talents and interests.....

Why would we get only a few decades, with SO MUCH to learn about?

I'm going to go surfing for more insight into the "first-timers" and the exploding population and explanations for "non-typical bodies" or intense suffering to share here....

I just keep in mind this: We are here to learn via experience, and to teach and/or help others to learn via experience.

reply to post by logical7

back to reincarnation, in simple words, reincarnation tells me that i have a purpose but i'l never consiously know it yet ultimately achieve it!!!

No, you will "consciously know it" once you've achieved the level of understanding that the masters have....i.e. Jesus or whoever.

Every religion wants to, and tries to, have "the answer" for the nagging question...whether it's in the form of achieving nirvana, or going to "heaven", or being psychic....whatever a culture or group wants to call it - it's a longing for a higher understanding.

Or else it's just a cruel hoax and an accident of our brain's evolution that we are self-aware and know we will die.

I've previously mentioned the unspeakable "magic" of falling in love with one's child...but let's look at the opposite - of "losing" one's child, or any beloved, to death.

Why does it hurt so much? I had no concept of how painful it could be until my father died...of course, I've lost pets, and friends, and felt anguish at learning about the suffering and/death of others - but until it was someone I loved VERY MUCH, I could not have understood the huge waves of unstoppable pain; the tremors, the helplessness - as that agony washes over and through the bereft. I think LOVE has a LOT to do with why we are here....

To me, "God" (by any name) - the Divine One Source - is about LOVE - else, why do we feel such physical symptoms of extreme emotions - if it's all just ["Meh..." and a shrug of the shoulders] in importance, why does it hurt so much?? Or consume us and render us "incoherent" - both crazy infatuated ecstatic romantic "love", and profound, earth-shattering familial "love"??

reply to post by wildtimes

The lessons involve having every possible experience that advances our "soul" to understanding the Divine. Yes, I think we will all get there eventually - so, while the particular "coursework" may vary, the LEARNED truth - the outcome - is the goal. Learning to be charitable, compassionate, accepting, tolerant, helpful, kind.... to hold sacred existence itself - I believe the "master souls" DO know it now - and they come back by choice, to teach others. Such as Jesus did, and Buddha, and Krishna; Ghandi, the Dalai Lama...

that brings us to revelations, doesnt holy books speak those lessons? So we would just get on a fast track to our purpose if we take them as guides. Unless ofcourse if we want to delay, as we have fallen in love with the journey more than the destination.

One lifetime of a few decades is
NOT ENOUGH TIME to learn all there is
to know by living here. Every day I
know I'm closer to my physical
demise, and I mourn the fact that there
is just NOT ENOUGH TIME to do everything I want to do, learn all I
want to learn, find answers to all my
questions, explore all of my talents
and interests.....
Why would we get only a few
decades, with SO MUCH to learn about?

let me give a simple analogy, we have an exam for few hours but the benefits of passing last a long time. Nobody wants REexams.
In reincarnation the end is not tempting at all, Disappearing in the source! So ofcourse their is a desire to delay.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

My only problem with reincarnation is that it implies the same set of souls are being born over and over again. Which doesn't explain why the world population is ever increasing. Or maybe there's something I don't understand about it.

From what I've read and heard, souls reincarnate in an infinite number of places and realities, not just on earth. By the same token, many do continue to incarnate over and over right here. So the influx of souls from other places drives the population.

I'm neither a believer nor a disbeliever, so that is just what I've gathered to this point.

reply to post by sled735

The body is appointed once to die. It does NOT say it is appointed once for man to live.

What are you talking about? The verse totally says that it is appointed for man to die once. If a man can only die once, then he only lives once. The Greek word for man in Hebrews 9:27 is ανθροπος. This word means human beings, not the body—there are other Greek words that communicate that (βιος for example).

reply to post by Jameliel

Can you say what the kingdom of the dead is like?

From my understanding it's a place where the dead go and "sleep" awaiting the final judgement. It's not something that I've studied in depth though. Maybe I'll get around to that this year.

reply to post by Akragon


Clearly the chapter is about Christ dying only once. In making that point though the author of the letter to the Hebrews likens Christ dying once to men dying once. Thus the notion of reincarnation is denied.

I just had the thought that it's pretty interesting as well that Paul, in writing to the Thessalonians, who thought that Christ had already come, says that when Christ comes, the dead in Christ will rise first. He makes no mention of anyone being reincarnated. Which makes sense because, if someone reincarnates, it would be possible for them to no longer be one that is dead in Christ.

Again, regarding fresh/new souls. They can't be compared with us, we are all created equally and we evolve through different paths, choices and actions. Some will evolve faster, some will make mistakes and so on. Gods law is love and following that idea we can agree that no son is created differently, we all must have all opportunities.

In Spiritsm the major idea is: There is no salvation out of charity. You can see that I didn't say "There is no salvation out of Spiritsm", because that would be a lie. We all must learn how to love each other and that is a long path to trail. It is not easy to forgive someone who brought you pain or deception, but that's the ultimate goal.

In every existence we are given a chance to evolve, one step at time. The idea of "forgetting" our past lives is only Gods mercy towards us. We keep some of our abilities (you may call them talents), those are the things that you trained, worked or studied, you don't lose all of that. But in His mercy you don't have to remember all the bad or evil you did, in contrary you have a chance to atone for your faults to create a new future and, like I said, step by step walk to the right direction.

There are many levels of evolution in the spiritual world, but most of us are just children learning. According to the doctrine Earth is not an evolved world and it's only beginning it's transition from a world of atonement to a world of regeneration. Most of these wars, crimes and evil that we see are a "lesson" (do not take that strictly), when you see such evil and feel bad or sick it means something is changing, that you do not comply with it. Most of those evil, corrupted humans will not reincarnate in this planet, since now we are moving to a regeneration state, those who don't want to become better will stay behind and start in another world, less developed - but keep in mind that God does not leave any son behind and all these sons will have their chances in these new worlds, a chance to change...maybe through pain, sadness or any way to make it understand that he need to change.

Reincarnation is always hard, because it means we still need to fix or understand something. Maybe atone for past acts against a brother in another life. Again, it is not an eye for an eye rule, God is all love and nothing goes unnoticed. There is merit in all good you do and that can change the course of everything.

Originally posted by wildtimes
reply to post by logical7

 

back to reincarnation, in simple words, reincarnation tells me that i have a purpose but i'l never consiously know it yet ultimately achieve it!!!

No, you will "consciously know it" once you've achieved the level of understanding that the masters have....i.e. Jesus or whoever.

Every religion wants to, and tries to, have "the answer" for the nagging question...whether it's in the form of achieving nirvana, or going to "heaven", or being psychic....whatever a culture or group wants to call it - it's a longing for a higher understanding.

Or else it's just a cruel hoax and an accident of our brain's evolution that we are self-aware and know we will die.

and ultimate purpose is to disappear?, why not just die and be it the end.

I've previously mentioned the unspeakable "magic" of falling in love with one's child...but let's look at the opposite - of "losing" one's child, or any beloved, to death.

Why does it hurt so much? I had no concept of how painful it could be until my father died...of course, I've lost pets, and friends, and felt anguish at learning about the suffering and/death of others - but until it was someone I loved VERY MUCH, I could not have understood the huge waves of unstoppable pain; the tremors, the helplessness - as that agony washes over and through the bereft. I think LOVE has a LOT to do with why we are here....

To me, "God" (by any name) - the Divine One Source - is about LOVE - else, why do we feel such physical symptoms of extreme emotions - if it's all just ["Meh..." and a shrug of the shoulders] in importance, why does it hurt so much?? Or consume us and render us "incoherent" - both crazy infatuated ecstatic romantic "love", and profound, earth-shattering familial "love"??

I know how it is, watched a loved one die slowly knowing what is happening.
But i realised what pains is not that we love. But what we lost and miss. Its cruel but true. Its about us not the one who died.

reply to post by Taunos


This is beautiful....
and I agree with it. Thanks for a new "venue" to explore...
do you have any links handy??

reply to post by logical7

and ultimate purpose is to disappear?, why not just die and be it the end.

I'm not the one who said we "disappear". That was someone else (another Muslim) mocking his Buddhist friend's beliefs.

I don't think we "disappear". I think we are reunited in spiritual consciousness with the Divine Source - as described by those who have had NDEs, for example. That same unconditional, all-LOVE, all-PEACE, and the wisdom to appreciate it.
Furthermore, I believe once we have achieved that level of spiritual balance, we can CHOOSE to come back to help and teach, but it is not required.

reply to post by octotom

Clearly the chapter is about Christ dying only once. In making that point though the author of the letter to the Hebrews likens Christ dying once to men dying once. Thus the notion of reincarnation is denied.

Nope. Not "clearly."

Why are you unable to make the tiny step from "for a man to die once" to "for a man's body to die once", whereas "you must be born again" is so clearly "BE BORN AGAIN."??

It's the same "clear logic" sequence. Thus, the notion of reincarnation is not denied. It is explicity stated, plain as day!

If you're not going to take "be born again" literally, then why should I (or anyone) take "for a man to die once" literally?

No physical "body" returns from the dead. Only spirit returns. Spirit is reborn in another vessel. Body dies.

reply to post by wildtimes


I think the best way to start this road would by reading the Gospel. I think you will find a great read in page 50 (66 in the pdf) regarding reincarnation. I'll try to post answers in the limit of my knowledge according to the posts in the topic.

I really hope you enjoy it, in my experience what brought me to this was the idea of different worlds and how everything can be explained rationally. I'm a scientist and this is appealing to me, I have a lot of friends in this journey with me and we all enjoy how the ideas are presented and explained.

Gospel According to Spiritsm - Allan Kardec

reply to post by Taunos


Pulled it up. That looks AWESOME...can't wait to read it through..
I'd never heard of this bloke. From the 19th century, eh? The "First Enlightenment", I believe they called it - was it? Going by memory.....

Yay for more reading material! Just the contents look awesome.

reply to post by Klassified

By the same token, many do continue to incarnate over and over right here. So the influx of souls from other places drives the population.

I'm neither a believer nor a disbeliever, so that is just what I've gathered to this point.

I have gathered that as well.
Judy Goodman was one of those who first brought the concept to my attention...

reply to post by Klassified

From what I've read and heard, souls reincarnate in an infinite number of places and realities, not just on earth. By the same token, many do continue to incarnate over and over right here. So the influx of souls from other places drives the population.

isnt that one more theory to fill the inconsistencies of the theory in discussion.
But the question is why influx here, people "there" would think that reincarnation is working and less coming back more joining the source!! Which would be wrong. So even if depopulation happens here we can never be sure if reincarnation works or its just that "there" is now "here"
in short this new theory just blasts the theory it came to support.

reply to post by logical7


I realize this is all a lot for you to absorb, having no previous exposure to it.
Here is a link to Judy Goodman's Q&A page
Lots of excellent questions there....and her answers.

I'll keep looking for the "population explosion" info - I heard her speak about it, but haven't found it online yet. Klass? Do you have a quick online source?

reply to post by wildtimes


Yes, it goes back to the 19th century and it has a lot more now, since it evolves as a science. Just to present you with another must read for your understanding (actually there are 5 essential books, but these two will give you a whole new world to explore). The one I would like to send you does not have an English version - Planetary Transition from Divaldo Pereira Franco(you might find something in the internet, but will be hard).

Hopefully, you will find some answers and your mind limits will expand just like it happened to me

The Spirits Book - Allan Kardec