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Obama Administration: We Can and Will Force Christians to Act Against Their Faith

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posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 10:45 AM
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Originally posted by kthxbai
reply to post by NarrowGate
 


It's wonderful that you cherish your family. May you have a wonderful 2013 with them. But that has little to do with what federally mandated health care a company has to offer to it's workers. Chances are, if you were employed by them, you would never use that particular coverage, but someone else who was employed by them might. It's not up to you or me to take that away from them since it is legislated and required that it be available to them.


I'm not too big on those experts in law either(not all of them btw some are great).... Jesus said a few things about them. He talked about bankers too but Matthew was one. Things are not black and white.

IDK, hard topic for me. My wife uses them - but that puts her in a state of sin. Maybe not mortal, that's only for God to know I guess.




posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 10:45 AM
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reply to post by pavelivanov22
 


Many of the founding fathers were highly spiritual, but not Christian, in the modern sense, and they would be appalled to see how the Christians treat other American citizens.

But I agree - this is going way too far.



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 10:51 AM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by pavelivanov22
 


Many of the founding fathers were highly spiritual, but not Christian, in the modern sense, and they would be appalled to see how the Christians treat other American citizens.

But I agree - this is going way too far.


I am appalled too.

Don't let westboro represent us all.

Christians do not apply what our Lord taught us in this day and age. That is why many get a bad name, and our society is falling apart.. Already been prophesied that would happen too. There is a reason the gate is narrow.

All the prophecy is coming true lately...hard to deny it...you would have to want to.



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 10:56 AM
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Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Well, legally its true, to the letter of the law anyway


The Greens, who are Evangelical Christians, do not suspend their religious beliefs while running their businesses. Instead,they strive to run them fully in accordance with their Christian beliefs. They are unanimous in stating that they have always “sought to run Hobby Lobby in harmony with God’s laws and in a manner which brings glory to God.”


because:


The first argument the administration makes against the owners of Hobby Lobby is that Americans lose their First Amendment right to freely exercise their religion when they form a corporation and engage in commerce. A person’s Christianity, the administration argues, cannot be carried out through activities he engages in through an incorporated business.


sadly, the law exists and you cant 'strive' to be different.



Tell that to orgs. like The Red Cross...



the 'Hobby Lobby' corp. should in fact apply for the exemption because their legal entity (inc.) business model is clearly bound with the ' conscientious objector ' status.... as a truly Christian Ethic workplace would be, no violence. no weapons, no taking of life, no 7 deadly sins etc.
edit on 31-12-2012 by St Udio because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 10:59 AM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate

Originally posted by kthxbai
reply to post by NarrowGate
 


It's wonderful that you cherish your family. May you have a wonderful 2013 with them. But that has little to do with what federally mandated health care a company has to offer to it's workers. Chances are, if you were employed by them, you would never use that particular coverage, but someone else who was employed by them might. It's not up to you or me to take that away from them since it is legislated and required that it be available to them.


I'm not too big on those experts in law either(not all of them btw some are great).... Jesus said a few things about them. He talked about bankers too but Matthew was one. Things are not black and white.

IDK, hard topic for me. My wife uses them - but that puts her in a state of sin. Maybe not mortal, that's only for God to know I guess.


Matthew 22:17-21

17 Tell us, therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?”

18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, “Why do you test Me, you hypocrites? 19 Show Me the tax money.”

So they brought Him a denarius.

20 And He said to them, “Whose image and inscription is this?”

21 They said to Him, “Caesar’s.”

And He said to them, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”


This isn't about what we, as individual Christians do or don't do, this is about what is required by the government. If you do not believe in birth control, don't use birth control, but do not tell others they also can't use it. If the owner of Hobby Lobby does not want the government mandated health insurance, he can get a waiver for his own personal possession of it or not. This isn't about him and his beliefs, it's about the rights of his workers according to the law of the country they are in.

HE isn't required to have the health insurance and can get a waiver for himself based on religious beliefs, but he cannot get a waiver saying he doesn't have to provide it for his employees, nor can anyone of any other religion.

There is nothing unfair being done here nor is it anything against one religion and in favor of another.



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 11:01 AM
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Originally posted by St Udio

the 'Hobby Lobby' corp. should in fact apply for the exemption because their legal entity (inc.) business model is clearly bound with the ' conscientious objector ' status.... as a truly Christian Ethic workplace would be, no violence. no weapons, no 7 deadly sins etc.


He is more than welcome to get a waiver for himself and for himself alone. He is not welcome to prevent others from having the coverage that is legislated.

If an owner of a business that happens to be muslim or buddhist or any other religion were to do the exact same thing, I would oppose them as well.

I AM a Christian, but that doesn't entitle me to tell others how they can or cannot live. It's not my right to do so and it's not his right to do so. Religion isn't forced on people, it is embraced by people. He is acting as Caesar, not as Christ.



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 11:06 AM
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Imagine the outcry if Muslim-owned businesses were forced to sell pork products.

Can't imagine why, except for bacon. But imagine the fatwas against government then.



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 11:06 AM
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Originally posted by St Udio


Tell that to orgs. like The Red Cross...



the 'Hobby Lobby' corp. should in fact apply for the exemption because their legal entity (inc.) business model is clearly bound with the ' conscientious objector ' status.... as a truly Christian Ethic workplace would be, no violence. no weapons, no 7 deadly sins etc.
edit on 31-12-2012 by St Udio because: (no reason given)


For profit vs Not-for-profit. The Red Cross is an organization that provides assistance, not an organization that sells things for profit. The Red Cross is there to help people by GIVING them things when they are in need, not make a profit by SELLING them things and lining their own pockets. Regardless of what charities they may contribute to or whatever other good they do in the world, they are a business that sells goods for profit and they are to adhere to the same laws that other businesses adhere to.

They are also not a mom n pop store somewhere in a tiny town. They have over 525 stores in 42 states. They are a national chain.



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 11:08 AM
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Originally posted by beezzer
Imagine the outcry if Muslim-owned businesses were forced to sell pork products.

Can't imagine why, except for bacon. But imagine the fatwas against government then.


They aren't telling the Nationwide hobby store to sell the Koran, they are telling them they have to provide the legal healthcare for their employees. If they ever try to force them to sell the Koran or something against their spiritual beliefs, I will stand beside you in opposing it.

and you'll have to share the bacon




edit on 31-12-2012 by kthxbai because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by beezzer
Imagine the outcry if Muslim-owned businesses were forced to sell pork products.

Can't imagine why, except for bacon. But imagine the fatwas against government then.


Two different issues.

One is selling a good.

The other is providing coverage for employees.

Big difference.



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 11:19 AM
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Originally posted by kthxbai

Originally posted by beezzer
Imagine the outcry if Muslim-owned businesses were forced to sell pork products.

Can't imagine why, except for bacon. But imagine the fatwas against government then.


They aren't telling the Nationwide hobby store to sell the Koran, they are telling them they have to provide the legal healthcare for their employees. If they ever try to force them to sell the Koran or something against their spiritual beliefs, I will stand beside you in opposing it.

and you'll have to share the bacon




edit on 31-12-2012 by kthxbai because: (no reason given)


But they are being forced to "sell" a product that goes against their beliefs.

Abortion meds.

And no shares on the bacon. Get your own.



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 11:21 AM
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Originally posted by Liquesence

Originally posted by beezzer
Imagine the outcry if Muslim-owned businesses were forced to sell pork products.

Can't imagine why, except for bacon. But imagine the fatwas against government then.


Two different issues.

One is selling a good.

The other is providing coverage for employees.

Big difference.



You are talking from a secular standpoint. Freedom of religion..... it applies to the secular world in this country as well even through Church and State are separate.

No one should be FORCED to sell contraceptives.
edit on 31-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 11:22 AM
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Originally posted by kthxbai

Originally posted by St Udio

the 'Hobby Lobby' corp. should in fact apply for the exemption because their legal entity (inc.) business model is clearly bound with the ' conscientious objector ' status.... as a truly Christian Ethic workplace would be, no violence. no weapons, no 7 deadly sins etc.


He is more than welcome to get a waiver for himself and for himself alone. He is not welcome to prevent others from having the coverage that is legislated.

If an owner of a business that happens to be muslim or buddhist or any other religion were to do the exact same thing, I would oppose them as well.

I AM a Christian, but that doesn't entitle me to tell others how they can or cannot live. It's not my right to do so and it's not his right to do so. Religion isn't forced on people, it is embraced by people. He is acting as Caesar, not as Christ.



Now... let's look a little deeper than just ruffling an individuals feathers....


for example a JURY is a legal body, entity... right?

WELL.... a defense attorney can have a potential Jurer Dismissed from sitting on the Jury because they either are For OR Against capital punishment....

according to your thinking, the Law should not allow a lawyer that kind of liberty... to impose his worldview on a legal entity... the jury




in the thread example...it is the owner of the business that is having his rights & business model abridged



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 11:26 AM
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Originally posted by beezzer


But they are being forced to "sell" a product that goes against their beliefs.

Abortion meds.

And no shares on the bacon. Get your own.


They aren't forced to sell it at all, they can even voice their opposition to it within reason. However, they are forced to provide medical coverage to their employees and that particular medical coverage may be sought by some of the employees by their own choice.
They are not forcing the company owners to take the meds themselves nor are they forcing them to pick them up at the pharmacy, only to provide the required medical coverage for the employee to use at their own discretion within the law.

I was going to share my bacon with you



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 11:31 AM
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Originally posted by kthxbai
However, they are forced to provide medical coverage to their employees
I was going to share my bacon with you


And that's the key word.

They are being forced to provide a service to which they don't agree with based on their religious beliefs.

One slice. Maybe two. That's it on the bacon.



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 11:31 AM
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Originally posted by NarrowGate

You are talking from a secular standpoint. Freedom of religion..... it applies to the secular world in this country as well even through Church and State are separate.

No one should be FORCED to sell contraceptives.
edit on 31-12-2012 by NarrowGate because: (no reason given)


They aren't being forced to sell contraceptive. Nowhere does it say they have to have contraceptives on their shelves, nowhere does it say they have to convince others to buy contraceptives. It says that contraceptives are an option on the health insurance they have to legally provide to their employees. Their employees are free to choose to not get the contraceptives if that is their choice and they are also allowed to recieve those contraceptives if it is their choice.

In either case, they aren't selling anything, they ARE buying the health insurance covereage that would be buying the contraceptives if the employee chooses to use them but the company isn't paying for the contraceptives directly, they aren't selling them from their own shelves, they are not going to the pharmacy to pick them up, they aren't counting out their change to pay for them. They are providiing health insurance as is required and contraceptives is one of the options that is part of that health coverage.

If the owner is allergic to penicillin does that mean none of his employees can have it either?



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 11:33 AM
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Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by kthxbai
However, they are forced to provide medical coverage to their employees
I was going to share my bacon with you


And that's the key word.

They are being forced to provide a service to which they don't agree with based on their religious beliefs.

One slice. Maybe two. That's it on the bacon.


But they aren't required to take out a specific policy that covers contraceptives and only contraceptives. They are required to provide a policy that does offer contraceptives according to the choice of the patient. Just like the penicillin example I gave. Just because the owner is allergic to penicillin doesn't mean it should be witheld from all employees as well.

I'll give you sausage wrapped in bacon and covered with bacon bits



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 11:35 AM
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reply to post by kthxbai
 

i kind of remember an outcry when muslim worshippers were wanting to be exempt from handling pork while working at grocery stores......
remember???



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 11:40 AM
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Originally posted by St Udio


Now... let's look a little deeper than just ruffling an individuals feathers....


for example a JURY is a legal body, entity... right?

WELL.... a defense attorney can have a potential Jurer Dismissed from sitting on the Jury because they either are For OR Against capital punishment....

according to your thinking, the Law should not allow a lawyer that kind of liberty... to impose his worldview on a legal entity... the jury

in the thread example...it is the owner of the business that is having his rights & business model abridged


A jury is not an employer, it's not a business, it is not comparable to this situation in any way, shape or form.

You are grasping at straws now.

If you can show me where another for-profit business comparable to Hobby Lobby, not a church or non-profit business that has certain allocations, is given a waiver based on their beliefs which are other than Christian saying they don't have to provide health insurance to their employees, I will join you in opposing them. It's wrong for Hobby Lobby and it's wrong for any other business that tries to do so.

This isn't an attack from the government on religion, it's the government not allowing a company to use a loophole to get out of providing for it's employees and I support the government in not allowing that loophole to be used in that way. I'm not opposing the company or what they stand for, but I am opposing their attempt at using their religion, MY religion, to try to get out of doing what they are supposed to do as a company.




edit on 31-12-2012 by kthxbai because: turned off other poster's italics that bled into my response



posted on Dec, 31 2012 @ 11:41 AM
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Originally posted by dawnstar
reply to post by kthxbai
 

i kind of remember an outcry when muslim worshippers were wanting to be exempt from handling pork while working at grocery stores......
remember???




No, I don't remember. What was the result?

If the store sold pork, they would be required to handle it at the checkout counter while swiping the items purchased. That's part of the job. There are no employment laws I know of to protect people from pork-handling. Doesn't mean they don't exist I just don't know about them. I assume that would be between her and the employer.

Did they refuse to give her health coverage? If so, then I have an issue with it.





edit on 31-12-2012 by kthxbai because: (no reason given)



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