Obama Administration: We Can and Will Force Christians to Act Against Their Faith

Originally posted by beezzer

Originally posted by jimmyx

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by jimmyx

 

Name the conditions.

slander, loud noise laws, protesting without a premit, just 3 off the top of my head

edit on 31-12-2012 by jimmyx because: spell

None of those place conditions on the ability to worship freely.

None.

If I own a private company and place religious tenents on it, it is my right. My free expression of my religion.

If we make Hobby Lobby provide abortion meds, then I suppose it should be okay to force muslims to eat pork.

If the government so choses.

First, I've read the forums for some time now and I do respect you and appreciate your posts. I feel you will see this as a discussion, not an attack of any kind.

There is a separtion of church and state. The moment that you hire another person to work for that company, it all changes. If you are the owner and only employee, you can dictate how that employee (you) behaves, worships, everything they do. The moment another person is added to the mix, it's no longer dictated by any religous belief you may hold, it is dictated by the laws of the nation that you reside in.

If you want to fire every employee you have and run the country by yourself or with your family that shares your beliefs, then you are free to apply whatever religous tenets you wish to apply. Once another person is brought in, it's no longer you and you alone and you have to abide by employment laws of your governing body.

The separtion protects not only your beliefs but the beliefs of others. We are all individuals who have come together to form a country. The laws that govern that country has to treat each person fairly. When laws favor you, they disfavor someone else. The law is to remain fair to all, not just in favor of one belief or another. There is give and take from each side. Sometimes you will like it, sometimes you won't. There has to be balance. One of the balances we have is no favortism based on religion either for or against any particular one.

While our particular religion may be in the majority, there are others that aren't and some that have no religion at all. If we were no longer in the majority, then that separation protects us against the opposing side just as it is protecting the opposing side against us.

reply to post by jimmyx


If I went to work for a Christian book store should I sue them because they don't sell Playboy?... Koran? After all that is their belief it is wrong not mine.
If I worked there, should I be able to wear any atire that would be in opposition to their belief?

You people talk of right and wrong. Yet, almost demand folks conform to your way of thinking. Because you are somehow more enlightened. You all defeat your own arguement.

It's okay today because it's them, tomorrow it may be you. Just remember your so enlightened and educated your helping make the rope strong and the knot work right..... fools!

You people are silly.

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by jimmyx

 

The folks who own Hobby Lobby are not making society not use the abortion drugs. They just feel that it is against their religious faith to use it or buy it. People don't HAVE to work at Hobby Lobby. No-one is making them.

The only entity forcing someone to do something against their will is the government.

let's get something striaght...business cannot do anything it wants, it has to obey the laws set forth by the people's government. hobby lobby can obey those laws, or, they can sell it to someone that will

reply to post by newcovenant


A lot of christians don't follow that pope either or the doctrines
of the catholic church.

Originally posted by BritofTexas

Originally posted by beezzer
People don't HAVE to work at Hobby Lobby. No-one is making them.

And Hobby Lobby don't HAVE to be in business if they do not want to follow the same rules as everyone else. No one is making them.

Yeah... So if they don't like the new regime forcing things on them, against their religion and for the first time in this nation's history.....they can leave? Umm.. You're really saying that? What has this nation fallen to in SUCH a short time??

Do the layoffs all over not indicate something? Businesses ARE closing. Hobby Lobby isn't...yet. However, as noted above, this isn't a negotiable thing to people who have Faith. It's a Salvation issue.....and that is an absolute. Think Hostess Bakery. To get that precious abortion pill for employees, this administration is perfectly willing to push employers to the untenable position of breaking Faith or closing down. They WILL close if pushed THAT far. Count on it. There is no choice.

You WILL manage to kill these companies and the jobs they give .....for what? For an abortion pill? I can't believe it's worth it... But then, it won't be the jobs of the people pushing this that are lost, will it?

Originally posted by murphy22
reply to post by jimmyx

 

If I went to work for a Christian book store should I sue them because they don't sell Playboy?... Koran? After all that is their belief it is wrong not mine.
If I worked there, should I be able to wear any atire that would be in opposition to their belief?

You people talk of right and wrong. Yet, almost demand folks conform to your way of thinking. Because you are somehow more enlightened. You all defeat your own arguement.

It's okay today because it's them, tomorrow it may be you. Just remember your so enlightened and educated your helping make the rope strong and the knot work right..... fools!

You people are silly.

edit on 31-12-2012 by murphy22 because: (no reason given)

if i had a business, (and i have)...i'd have to obey the laws of the people, it doesn't matter what MY BELIEF is...that's personal...when you operate a business, that's public, and you have to follow the laws. if you cannot follow the laws, don't own a business

Originally posted by murphy22
reply to post by Druscilla

 

Again you really miss the point. Where is your command and control of your actions? Do women not take responsibilty and at least partial blame (if you see it that way) for having a child?

Why would it be only the "boys" fault/insurance? How about the women carry full coverage in case they bump someone in the parking lot?

The whole issue has nothing to do with how much some women hate men or who hates religion.

It has to do wether TPTB can force a company to comply with an unconstitutional (color of law).

However I see that you feel the same about the "abortion pill" as I do about Ammo. So I can relate. Better to have it and not need it...... Only thing is nobody helps me pay for it and that it is constitutionally protected. LOL!

edit on 31-12-2012 by murphy22 because: added statement

Um, you don't get it do you?

Women DO carry full coverage insurance. It's called MEDICAL INSURANCE.

reply to post by pavelivanov22


Yes, but remember that the Lord let him be elected and gave
us the type of leader that we deserve!

reply to post by kthxbai

Separation of Church and State.....is not a Constitutional value or right. It's a concept and it wasn't even a voiced concept to push until late in the 20th century.

Unless you want to suggest Hobby Lobby is a State organization, the argument falls flat. However, it works quite well in reverse as it occurred to me. Separation of Church and State would mean the STATE does not INTERFERE with matters of Religion ...any more than Religion interjects itself into matters of State. I admit that line it getting a bit blurry lately ...but this attempts to just erase it wholesale and from just the State down to the Faithful.

Around 80% of this nation identifies as Christian.....this isn't a battle this President will ultimately win. It could cost our nation dearly though ...and I'm starting to wonder if THAT isn't the actual purpose here. The anger, hate and outright fighting between citizens was bad enough already ....always adding MORE to fight about, this President is. Always.

reply to post by Tw0Sides


I wonder how far this administration will have to go, or what atrocity Obama will have to do, to wake up his SUPPORTERS, to the fact he is a tyrant.

You know, its OK as long as it is happening to the other guy, it isn't until they come after you that it will matter.

For the LOVE of GOD, is there anything about this guy Obama supporters disagree with?

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Originally posted by BritofTexas

Originally posted by beezzer
People don't HAVE to work at Hobby Lobby. No-one is making them.

And Hobby Lobby don't HAVE to be in business if they do not want to follow the same rules as everyone else. No one is making them.

Yeah... So if they don't like the new regime forcing things on them, against their religion and for the first time in this nation's history.....they can leave? Umm.. You're really saying that? What has this nation fallen to in SUCH a short time??

Do the layoffs all over not indicate something? Businesses ARE closing. Hobby Lobby isn't...yet. However, as noted above, this isn't a negotiable thing to people who have Faith. It's a Salvation issue.....and that is an absolute. Think Hostess Bakery. To get that precious abortion pill for employees, this administration is perfectly willing to push employers to the untenable position of breaking Faith or closing down. They WILL close if pushed THAT far. Count on it. There is no choice.

You WILL manage to kill these companies and the jobs they give .....for what? For an abortion pill? I can't believe it's worth it... But then, it won't be the jobs of the people pushing this that are lost, will it?

yes....that's what i'm saying...businesses in the south refused service to blacks, because of the owners personal beliefs...the government came in and forced them to serve blacks. most did, some sold their businesses

Originally posted by murphy22
reply to post by jimmyx

 

If I went to work for a Christian book store should I sue them because they don't sell Playboy?... Koran? After all that is their belief it is wrong not mine.
If I worked there, should I be able to wear any atire that would be in opposition to their belief?

You people talk of right and wrong. Yet, almost demand folks conform to your way of thinking. Because you are somehow more enlightened. You all defeat your own arguement.

It's okay today because it's them, tomorrow it may be you. Just remember your so enlightened and educated your helping make the rope strong and the knot work right..... fools!

You people are silly.

edit on 31-12-2012 by murphy22 because: (no reason given)

The company isn't the only one with rights. The employee has rights as well. When a company hires you, there are conditions set forth. Those conditions must fall within the what the law allows. The law allows for a store to sell what it wants to sell within legality. The law allows for dress codes to exist. What you sell and how you dress isn't dictated by the Constitution, however, you cannot force your employees to participate in a prayer circle at a given time of day, you cannot force your employees to live in a certain place, eat certain foods or marry who you tell them to marry. There are considerations on both sides of the employment agreement and both parties have to live up to those considerations.

This is not a theocracy. This is not a country based on the tenets of any religion. Right now, the Christians are the majority (as a whole, if it were broken into denominations, they would no longer be a majority). At some point in time, the muslim religion may be a majority. If we allow religion to permeate what the government allows and doesn't allow, at some point in time, we may be signing over the lives of our children or grandchildren to be ruled by what they say should be done instead of what our faith says should be done.

Government cannot favor any religion. If they allow you to dicate to others based on your religion, then it is infringing on the religion of someone else. If it allows them to dictate, then it infringes upon yours. The only answer is to not allow any to infringe on any other. Sure, it may make you feel good now, and maybe even 10 years from now, but what about 20 years from now? 50 years? If the laws are "bent" to favor you right now, the same laws will be used in the future for someone else and you may not agree with that someone else. Do you want to subject your children to that just so you can enjoy the benefits right now?

reply to post by jimmyx

yes....that's what i'm saying...the people in the south refused service to blacks, because of the owners personal beliefs...the government came in and forced them to serve blacks. most did, some sold their businesses

Couldn't resist playing the race card, eh?

When I thought the debate couldn't get lower....it did.

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by Tw0Sides

 

I wonder how far this administration will have to go, or what atrocity Obama will have to do, to wake up his SUPPORTERS, to the fact he is a tyrant.

You know, its OK as long as it is happening to the other guy, it isn't until they come after you that it will matter.

For the LOVE of GOD, is there anything about this guy Obama supporters disagree with?

yes...i disagree with obama on the NDAA, on keeping the war in afghanistan going on longer than it should, on outlawing semi-automatics, on NOT prosecuting the bankers for the 2008 debacle

reply to post by Druscilla



You won't have anything when you can't get a job because they can no longer afford to keep the lights on and stay in business.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Originally posted by BritofTexas

Originally posted by beezzer
People don't HAVE to work at Hobby Lobby. No-one is making them.

And Hobby Lobby don't HAVE to be in business if they do not want to follow the same rules as everyone else. No one is making them.

Yeah... So if they don't like the new regime forcing things on them, against their religion and for the first time in this nation's history.....they can leave? Umm.. You're really saying that? What has this nation fallen to in SUCH a short time??

Do the layoffs all over not indicate something? Businesses ARE closing. Hobby Lobby isn't...yet. However, as noted above, this isn't a negotiable thing to people who have Faith. It's a Salvation issue.....and that is an absolute. Think Hostess Bakery. To get that precious abortion pill for employees, this administration is perfectly willing to push employers to the untenable position of breaking Faith or closing down. They WILL close if pushed THAT far. Count on it. There is no choice.

You WILL manage to kill these companies and the jobs they give .....for what? For an abortion pill? I can't believe it's worth it... But then, it won't be the jobs of the people pushing this that are lost, will it?

Hobby Lobby is a business not a church.

Hostess Bakery? Really? They closed because nobody was buying Twinkies anymore NOT because of a healthcare issue.

Originally posted by jimmyx

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
reply to post by Tw0Sides

 

I wonder how far this administration will have to go, or what atrocity Obama will have to do, to wake up his SUPPORTERS, to the fact he is a tyrant.

You know, its OK as long as it is happening to the other guy, it isn't until they come after you that it will matter.

For the LOVE of GOD, is there anything about this guy Obama supporters disagree with?

yes...i disagree with obama on the NDAA, on keeping the war in afghanistan going on longer than it should, on outlawing semi-automatics, on NOT prosecuting the bankers for the 2008 debacle

Yet you voted for him I assume?

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by kthxbai

 

Separation of Church and State.....is not a Constitutional value or right. It's a concept and it wasn't even a voiced concept to push until late in the 20th century.

Unless you want to suggest Hobby Lobby is a State organization, the argument falls flat. However, it works quite well in reverse as it occurred to me. Separation of Church and State would mean the STATE does not INTERFERE with matters of Religion ...any more than Religion interjects itself into matters of State. I admit that line it getting a bit blurry lately ...but this attempts to just erase it wholesale and from just the State down to the Faithful.

Around 80% of this nation identifies as Christian.....this isn't a battle this President will ultimately win. It could cost our nation dearly though ...and I'm starting to wonder if THAT isn't the actual purpose here. The anger, hate and outright fighting between citizens was bad enough already ....always adding MORE to fight about, this President is. Always.

edit on 31-12-2012 by Wrabbit2000 because: (no reason given)

The state isn't dictating what they practice as their religion, but they WILL dictate how they operate as a business and how they treat their employees. If they wish to function as a business, it moves beyond the personal choice of religion, it moves to the public treatment of those who work for them. The employees have rights as well to not have their religion dictated due to employment.

Upon employing other people, they move past being individuals with protection of their religious beliefs and become a public entity that must abide by the laws set forth. They still have their individual religious rights, but so do the employees. They don't have to buy a morning after pill and take it, but they don't have the right to prevent their employees from doing that using the insurance that is provided by the company as a business.

Just as church and state are separated, the individual and the business is separated.

I would like to see the support for the statement that 80% identifies as Christian. That may have been true at some point in time, but I don't believe it is now. You also have to consider the range of "Christianity". Not all Christians are of the conservative slant, not even the majority in my opinion. The term encompasses much more than the radical extremist right wing version of Christianity (which in my opinion isn't christianity at all, but that's another topic).

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by jimmyx

 

yes....that's what i'm saying...the people in the south refused service to blacks, because of the owners personal beliefs...the government came in and forced them to serve blacks. most did, some sold their businesses

Couldn't resist playing the race card, eh?

When I thought the debate couldn't get lower....it did.

edit on 31-12-2012 by Wrabbit2000 because: minor correction.

...yeah... so what?...it applies...and why do i think that?....because the racism that everybody thought had finally been tapped down and been put to bed in history...came roaring back when obama was elected...i'm a white male, and even i can see it

Originally posted by Tw0Sides
The US is Probably the Most Barbaric Country since Mongolia's Genghis Khan.

First of all, Genghis Khan was not barbaric.

Secondly, the OP is a simply a case of Christian radical right wingers once again trying to impose their beliefs on others. They run a business that provides health insurance to their employees. By law, health plans must now include coverage for "sterilizations, contraceptives, and abortion-inducing drugs." The owners don't want to pay for this coverage since it goes against their beliefs.

What they don't understand is that the health plan is for the employees. If they don't believe in abortions, fine. Don't get one. But the health plan provides coverage for everyone regardless of beliefs.

The owners are basically whining that they're not being allowed to discriminate against the employees that don't share their beliefs. Ridiculous.

What if some business owner decided that they didn't believe in paying more than $2/hr due to their religion? Would it then be legal to pay his employees $2/hr and not the minimum wage? Of course not.