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Obama Administration: We Can and Will Force Christians to Act Against Their Faith

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posted on Jan, 1 2013 @ 05:44 AM
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Is it just me or is that company forcing there religion on the employees.

A corporation to have the option to have "against religion options" doesn't mean everyone has to use them. But the boss forcing not to have such option he in turn forces his religion on the employees.

That even a story is spun this way baffles me.




posted on Jan, 1 2013 @ 06:19 AM
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What has happened to the world?

So, you have decided to murder your unborn child. Of course, you don't put it that way. You give me some clever and important-sounding euphemisms and techno-babble designed to disguise the fact that it is murder. You say that your sovereignty over your own body gives you the right to commit this murder.

You point to the statutes and say, see, the State agrees with me that I am doing nothing wrong here, as if, by implication, it is impossible for the State to be wrong, and any action that is legal is also moral by definition.

But, I see through your rhetoric and your rationale, and I recognize that it is still a murder, all the more heinous because it is a murder of an innocent and absolutely defenseless human being.

And then, somewhere along the way, I became responsible for providing you with assistance to commit this murder. And when I refuse to render any aid to your diabolical designs, be it material, financial, or otherwise, you cry foul and claim that I am somehow infringing upon your rights.

What has happened to the world?



posted on Jan, 1 2013 @ 06:43 AM
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Originally posted by Spectral Norm
What has happened to the world?

So, you have decided to murder your unborn child. Of course, you don't put it that way. You give me some clever and important-sounding euphemisms and techno-babble designed to disguise the fact that it is murder. You say that your sovereignty over your own body gives you the right to commit this murder.

You point to the statutes and say, see, the State agrees with me that I am doing nothing wrong here, as if, by implication, it is impossible for the State to be wrong, and any action that is legal is also moral by definition.

But, I see through your rhetoric and your rationale, and I recognize that it is still a murder, all the more heinous because it is a murder of an innocent and absolutely defenseless human being.

And then, somewhere along the way, I became responsible for providing you with assistance to commit this murder. And when I refuse to render any aid to your diabolical designs, be it material, financial, or otherwise, you cry foul and claim that I am somehow infringing upon your rights.

What has happened to the world?

You are hopefully aware that life can be considered life when it can live on its own to some extend. Unborn fetuses cant in any form live on its own, it doesn't even show all signs of life.
And in what way is it murder IF you know that it doesn't show the signs of life (yet). Let me spin the table and just say, who are to play god and say to someone that they may not have control over there own body.
And your god gave us free will, didn't he? Then why are people still forcing its religion on people? Then its there choice to burn, if you really believe that. It is not a Christian's place to make the decision for someone else to follow god, he gave us free will for a reason.
Also I for one don't believe in the State as you call it in any form (as an anarchist).



posted on Jan, 1 2013 @ 07:09 AM
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reply to post by R9e9l9o
 


You are hopefully aware that life begins at the moment of conception, and anything else is merely techno-babble designed to rationalize murder.

Let me spin the table back and say that I am not God, but neither do I believe that God is in favor of the murder of the unborn.

Indeed, we are imbued with will, God's greatest gift to us. We can, and frequently do, choose to do evil. It happens every day, although it saddens me.

I make no attempt to force, or even cajole, others into accepting God. That is a decision that each person must come to on his or her own. However, I will not participate in murder in any way, even as an accessory. I will accept any punishment the State can levy upon me as a result of my convictions, and I will not abandon them under any circumstances.



posted on Jan, 1 2013 @ 07:31 AM
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Originally posted by LadyGreenEyes

What I commented on, that you posted, was your statement that men should maybe be forced to have vasectomies. Yes, I took that literally. I note that you didn't comment on that, either, in your reply. I await your response to my question.

If a woman wants insurance that covers abortions, then she can pay for such insurance. No one is saying, in this thread, that she should not be able to. What people are saying is that an employer should not be forced to pay for such insurance, if that disagrees with their religious beliefs. A "company" is simply a business, and it's the owner, or owners, that foot the expenses. Forcing someone to pay for something that goes against their religious beliefs infringes on those beliefs. It prohibits them from "the free exercise thereof" their religion.

If you don't want someone telling you that you can't have an abortion, if you want one, then by the same token you should not be able to tell someone that they have to pay for that abortion. Paying for the insurance that covers one is paying for one.

Yes, because when I encounter someone with views that are mostly opposite of mine, I use the lists to keep track. Doesn't mean I won't ever agree. I will even star (and flag, for threads) a foe, if I agree with them on a particular thing. Strange world, eh?

I just thought of another way to try and help you see this from my point of view. You don't seem to be pro-religion. Your choice, of course. How would you feel if someone passed a law stating that you, as a business owner, had to pay employees for time taken off work for religious practices? Would your not wanting to pay for that be a restriction on their rights? I don't think it would be. I don't think not paying for abortion drugs is, either.


It would seem you haven't practiced due diligence in going back to the original comment that mentioned vasectomies and pregnancy insurance requirements for guys to review the context in which such statements were made in reply to equally ridiculous commentary, as previous stated, and now stated AGAIN.

Do I need illustrate with pictures, crayola, and big simple words?
Every single dot on the page shouldn't have to be explained and hand held.


As to business entities, or any other institution that works in the public domain, facilitating a hiring practice that recruits from the public domain, anything in the public domain and applying to the public domain typically falls under the umbrella of local, state, and federal legislation.
Such is why this issue went all the way to the Supreme Court.
Hint. Hint.

You may want to review the procedure for cases being heard by the Supreme Court.

You don't just up and get a Supreme Court Ruling. No. You file your day of litigation locally,and after that, if malcontent, you go to court again, and again, and again, going up the ladder in incremental stages,
The case is heard, heard again, and again, and again, until your arm gets sore from pumping the organ grinder for your monkeys to dance over and over.

As I stated before, and now AGAIN, if a business is run by Militant Atheists, and they provided health care for their employees, would it be within their right as employers "providing" (you may want to look up how Medical benefits work, who pays what, and all the many hundreds, sundry different options) Medical Benefits to refuse those benefits to anyone that sees a Physician of any faith? No.

An employer can always just NOT offer any benefits at all to its employees.
It's that simple.




edit on 1-1-2013 by Druscilla because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2013 @ 07:57 AM
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reply to post by Spectral Norm
 

Actually it isn't "techno-babble" because the definition of what life is came from an age when even thinking about abortion was a taboo.

Who are you to think for anyone? Even if its just an assumption, you can be wrong. (because abortion is never mentioned in the bible)

So you rather force your religion on someone and make the decision for them, than letting them make the choice them selfs. In other words they guy who sold you the gun isn't at all participating in the shooting of someone, its all the person who bought it.



posted on Jan, 1 2013 @ 08:49 AM
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reply to post by R9e9l9o
 


It makes no difference to me if you can trace your rhetoric back to the Stone Age. Life begins at conception..

As far as I can tell, I am not forcing anyone to do anything. You are free to sin as much as you like. I do hope that you choose restraint, but, ultimately, that is not my call.

People choose to murder their unborn children every day. But, just as they are free to commit these atrocities, I am also free to regard them as such.

Once again, for my part, I can only choose not to participate, even by proxy.



posted on Jan, 1 2013 @ 08:50 AM
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reply to post by dc4lifeskater
 

There is only one answer to this awful man and the word is ANTICHRIST



posted on Jan, 1 2013 @ 09:40 AM
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Have the anti-abortionists murdered any doctors lately? Tell us again how precious life is to these radical extremists. They're not Christians. Life isn't precious to them. The thing that they covet is the power to force their views on other people, that is all.

Just listen to yourselves. Life doesn't begin at conception. The egg and the sperm are both alive to begin with.

So many self-righteous and condescending individuals in this thread, who must be without sin because of all the stones they are casting. Do any of you even read the Bible? You certainly don't seem to be living by Jesus' teachings, that much is obvious.



posted on Jan, 1 2013 @ 10:08 AM
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reply to post by Spectral Norm
 

If conception is your consideration of life than about 70% of what is considered life is dead to you. (from plants that don't sexually reproduce to snails and the like, bacteria and a few other types of living biengs)

Well let me paint one of the worst pictures.

Lets say your the boss, an employee is raped and gets pregnant, she doesn't have to pay for an abortion thus has the baby and raises it.
1. She will probably get far more financial problems.
2. She might get mental problems of the fact that she was raped (because the child is a big momento for that, so its far harder to put behind you).
3. She might lose the relationship or family ties she could had because of any of those things (having the child, financial problems, mental issues)
4. She could kill her self because of it.

So you have, because of her inability to not being able to pay for an abortion her self, made the choice for her. And in the progress made her life miserable, because of your bias/religion and partly because your refusal to accept the scientific term of what life is.



posted on Jan, 1 2013 @ 11:12 AM
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We are not free, we lost our freedom a long time ago, it has been eroding slowly but surely throughout the years , ya need a license to breath.

You can't hunt, fish,plant, build, they know every move you make and with the advent of the internet it s even worse.

Wear your seat belt, but on your helmet, stay off the land, you can't fish here, don't build that, who gave you permission to skate here, keep off the grass, you can't drink beer in this park, turn down that music, walk don't run, stop, go, drop dead.

Some of you really should worry about the word,

"Force "
edit on 113131p://bTuesday2013 by Stormdancer777 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2013 @ 11:25 AM
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reply to post by TheComte
 





So many self-righteous and condescending individuals in this thread


How about that?

I have learned some of the things I accuse others of I am guilty of myself, not necessary to throw stones to get a point across, and I haven't heard of any attacks on abortion clinics recently or often.

The lessons we seek to teach others are most often the lessons we most need to learn ourselves, I think about that.


edit on 113131p://bTuesday2013 by Stormdancer777 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2013 @ 11:48 AM
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reply to post by pavelivanov22
 


The abortion question can never be won on moral argument in my humble opinion. It is killing a child who had no choice anyway. When I was a young person my favorite cult film was Bless the Beasts and the Children. I felt and still feel that children are seen as something to add to an adults life. Their pitiful lives exist to enrich the adults or support it rather than the other way around. This has always gotten me about adults. Having a child is all about their ego. This is the exact wrong reason to become a parent. Yet, the nicest people seem to make this mistake. Me, me, me and lastly but not least-ly, me! We live in a society filled with narcissistic a-moralists. Gimmee gimmee gimmee. And if I don't want it, it's dead!

And never mind all of the umptiump ways to avoid pregnancy. All you need is a little respect for life and some birth control in most cases. It used to be that the pill etc were heavily flawed but not anymore.
edit on 04/18/2012 by Destiny10 because: add two more lines



posted on Jan, 1 2013 @ 11:56 AM
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Couldn't help but notice an assumption here on the op that life does not exist until a child is actually born. I would suggest that this sort of thing is impossible to know. Why would any compassionate person take a chance and abort their child? Kill their own child?? Oh, because science says they feel no pain? That's not the stories I've heard and besides why would you take that chance if you really gave a crap?



posted on Jan, 1 2013 @ 12:04 PM
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reply to post by TheComte
 


Regardless of who is the more righteous, killing your own child is not something that is right. Jesus would say don't kill your own child unless it is to save your own life. We can argue all day about how corrupt Christians are. How can you prove hypocrisy to a bunch of people who aren't trying all that hard at all? If your hurdles are low then heck yes, you are going to clear it. But if your hurdles are higher, and everyone can see that they are, it's a real challenge. We need to change as a nation (U.S) and abortion is at the front of our down fall. Some Americans don't care that much about anybody are too materialistic and full of themselves. I mean to say, I believe we can change but we need to stop stealing from each other...hope. So many of us are taking lives, we are trespassing on others lives and living a life that is a lie.



posted on Jan, 1 2013 @ 12:26 PM
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reply to post by Destiny10
 


First of doesn't just says things. The thing about science is that it test things before it ends in the "big book of science". Every creature react to pain the same way by sending impulses from the nerve cells to the central processing center (in case of humans the brain). At 15 weeks (the last moment a fetus can be aborted) it doesn't register pain yet, not to mention that at that point its still indistinguishable from a fetus from a pig or primate.

Second, no one in there right mind has an abortion for no reason (for some reasons the people they call in the USA "pro-life" seem to forget that often). Often times a fetus is aborted because the parent(s) cant care for it, when born needs its whole life lots of medical care making it assumable a horrible life, because the mother is a rape victim, will pose danger to the mother it self or has when born only a few months to live at best.



posted on Jan, 1 2013 @ 12:32 PM
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reply to post by Destiny10
 





Regardless of who is the more righteous, killing your own child is not something that is right. Jesus would say don't kill your own child unless it is to save your own life.


Nice, the way you put words in the mouth of Jesus!

Funny........I seem to remember Jesus supporting the practice of stoning rebellious children, as commended in Mosiac Law. Seems plenty of people, in Biblical times supported killing their own children, for various reasons.

A daughter found NOT to be a virgin on her wedding night, or, a son that is curious about other religions besides the one of his father, or expressed homosexual tendencies, are all supposed to be killed.

God commanded the killing of every first born in Egypt. God commanded Elijah to kill every man, woman and child, in his own village, that didn't "sigh" in misery for some perceived injustice.

God makes sure that Abraham is capable of killing his son, Isaac, and then later, God has his own son, Jesus killed.



edit on 1-1-2013 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2013 @ 01:11 PM
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reply to post by Timing
 


I understand now, it is you do not grasp what is happening in this particular endeavour. The OWNERS of Hobby Lobby are the ones claiming religious freedom, NOT the employees. The owners are trying to force their religious beliefs onto their employees. Not all of their employees follow their religious and moral views.

So once again, it is right for the employers to dictate what health care the employees can receive?



posted on Jan, 1 2013 @ 02:21 PM
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reply to post by R9e9l9o
 


I am not concerned here with plants, or snails, or bacteria, or pathogenic proteins. It was my impression that we were speaking of human beings. And for human beings, life begins at conception. Anything else is merely an attempt to justify murder by calling it something else.

And regarding your hypothetical scenario: Tragic circumstances such as rape do not entitle one to a free murder. Specifically:
1. Send her to me. I can put her in touch with people who can help her explore alternatives to murdering her child.
2. Send her to me. I can out her in touch with people who can help her cope with the tragedy.
3. Murder cannot be justified as a viable alternative to family ostracism.
4. See 3 above. Also, realize that self-murder is also a sin.
and
5. None of this is the child's fault.

I make no choices for anyone else. But I do steadfastly refuse to participate in that which I consider reprehensible.



posted on Jan, 1 2013 @ 02:37 PM
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reply to post by Spectral Norm
 





I am not concerned here with plants, or snails, or bacteria, or pathogenic proteins. It was my impression that we were speaking of human beings. And for human beings, life begins at conception. Anything else is merely an attempt to justify murder by calling it something else.


Your definition of life is different than mine. Life does not begin at conception. There is no "life fairy" that creates life where there once was none. Life is a cycle and that cycle doesn't begin at conception.

A fertilized egg is not a person, therefore, purposefully creating a hostile environment, in the uterus, to prevent implantation is not murder.

You're welcome to your belief, but you can't force others to accept your philosophy as the moral high ground that everyone else must follow.

Neither can an employer discriminate against female employees, who do not follow their employers belief system, by forcing those employees to accept less than standard medical attention or pay extra to take care of their physical, gender driven medical needs, than the men who are employed by the same company.

I would be curious to find out if this employer takes offense with his male employees who may use their insurance benefits for Viagra or to get a vasectomy.



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