The Hardest Logic Problem In the World

Originally posted by AthlonSavage
can a God answer a question wth anthing other than da or Ja - Ja
Does Ja mean true or false? True
Did the false God just speak?

edit on 3-1-2013 by AthlonSavage because: (no reason given)

Your second question isn't a da or ja answer.

Originally posted by AthlonSavage
can a God answer a question wth anthing other than da or Ja - Ja
Does Ja mean true or false? True
Did the false God just speak?

Sorry... the gods can't answer the second question. They can only say "yes or no".
So False or Random can answer "yes" (Ja, in this case) to the first question, no god can answer the second question, and Random and True can answer either "da" or "ja" to the third question.''

The key here is that you can't arrive at the solution with just one simple question. You have to either use multiple questions that rely on the previous answers OR you have to use a big question that combines several questions.

Originally posted by Brotherman
BYRD,

There is a section in a text book all about truth tables to solve logic problems the book is called "A Survey Mathematics with Applications" 8th Edition by Angel Abbott and Runde


You should also check out De Morgans Laws, Euler Diagrams and syllogistic arguments. Truth tables help you solve these problems by changing words to symbols and words and statements to link them in an equation.

Just saw this, and yes, I'm very familiar with truth tables, though I haven't read those books. My interest in logic problems like this began when I got my hands on (many years ago) Lewis Carroll's (yes, the guy who wrote "Alice in Wonderland") book, "The Game of Logic." I found them useful back in the very late 1970's when you had to code computers in machine language and you had to learn AND/OR/NAND/NOR logic.

humans could hardly understand logic, otherwise we wouldn't have war or discord amongst aourselves. This problem is flawed.

I would ask all three gods "Are you a liar"?

The Truth God would have to say no (since he isn't a liar but tells the truth)
The Liar God would have to say no (since he would be telling the truth if he said "yes")

The Random god would answer randomly.

So, two answers would have to be the same since the Liar god must lie and say "no" he isn't a liar, otherwise he would be telling the truth, and the truth god would also say "no" as he really isn't a liar.

So whichever word they used, would mean no, and by logic the other word would have to mean "yes". What the random god says would be irrelevant.

Just for clarification (and to understand the impact of randomness from Old God Random) -- getting a random answer does NOT mean that half the time he will answer "ja" and half the time he answers "da."

It means that each time you have a 50% chance of getting "ja" or "da" and that whether you get a "ja" or a "da" does NOT depend on what the last answer was.

So we could have "J, J, J, J, D" or "J, J, J, J, J" or "J, J, J, D, D" or "D, D, D, D, D" ...etc. There is no guarantee that Random will NEVER tell the truth while you are asking questions... or that Random will NEVER lie.

Is there any question you can say to the other Gods to trick them to giving the opposite answer to whcih they will say, if so say it to them now in your God langauage to get Ja or Da answer.

If is the truth God your talking to then He will say Da or Ja and then do nothing

If its the False God your talking to he will say either Da or Ja and then say question in God language to the random God knowing he is getting a random answer. He wont ask Truth God because the Truth God wont answer.

If is the random God your speaking to he will say Da or Ja ask and then ask the False God a lie question. The False God cant be fooled on lie questions so he wont answer at all.

reply to post by Byrd


Theres more than one way to skin a God.

Originally posted by AthlonSavage
Is there any question you can say to the other Gods to trick them to giving the opposite answer to whcih they will say, if so say it to them now in your God langauage to get Ja or Da answer.

All they can say is "Ja" or "da." None of them can say anything else, so all of them will give a Ja or a Da and then not answer. And none of them can be fooled. So you will get one Ja and two Da (as an answer) and nothing else, or two Ja and one Da.... and nothing else.

Which doesn't tell you who is which.

reply to post by Byrd

All they can say is "Ja" or "da." None of them can say anything else, so all of them will give a Ja or a Da and then not answer. And none of them can be fooled. So you will get one Ja and two Da (as an answer) and nothing else, or two Ja and one Da.... and nothing else.

Which doesn't tell you who is which.

My logic i was using wasnt trying to fool them in fact it relies on that they can fool a man but cannot be fooled by eachother. Anything they say to eachother would be non understandable in God langauge. All the repsonses i would here from them would be either Dar or Ja.

The only other way i can think of is through this question to all three Gods.

Does the Random God know who is the real truth God and who is the real false God?

If this question is directed to the Truth God he wont able to answer at all, because the Truth God knows that the Random God may have no sense of knowing what morality right or wrong is. The Random God therefore may have no idea who is the Truth or False God before him. Conversly however the Random God may know. This is the dilimea for the True Gods who wont know what the situation is whether the Random God knows or not. The Truth God wil lbe stumped by this question and wont be able to answer at all.

The other two Gods Random and False will be able to reply to this question with Da or Ja.

Then the person asking the question because the Truth God didnt answer his first question still is able to ask a a question to the Truth God. The question will to my right is this the False God and if so answer with Ja.

Ask this question because the truth God Definitely knows who the false God is. If he answers with Da then its the Random God revealed.

reply to post by arpgme


Answer sequences from your questions:
DDJ
JDD
JJJ
DDD

Result: no solution. Don't people work these out on paper first before posting their solutions?

Big clue: everyone in this thread has asked simplistic "Are you X?" and "Is X Y?" questions. This is not going to be the solution. AthlonSavage seems to be moving in the right direction with his/her multi conditional questions.

reply to post by john_bmth


If "ja" means "yes" and "da" means "no", is my name arpgme?

This question will be perfect to get the god to admit who he is. He must answer with "ja" (yes) in this situation otherwise he is a random or a liar god.

This will be a great way to figure out who the truth god is...

Originally posted by AthlonSavage
The only other way i can think of is through this question to all three Gods.

Does the Random God know who is the real truth God and who is the real false God?

The Logic Gods all know who the other ones are, but I suppose you could make up a situation where the Logic Gods didn't know anything about each other.

If this question is directed to the Truth God he wont able to answer at all, because the Truth God knows that the Random God may have no sense of knowing what morality right or wrong is.

It has nothing to do with morality. It has to do with Logic ("correct" and "not correct.")

The Random God therefore may have no idea who is the Truth or False God before him. Conversly however the Random God may know.

In the category of "the Logic Gods don't know where the other ones are" then Truth Logic God will truthfully answer "no" and Random Logic God answers randomly and False Logic God answers "yes"... and you are left with the same situation -- because YOU don't know if they know each other or not.

Then the person asking the question because the Truth God didnt answer his first question still is able to ask a a question to the Truth God. The question will to my right is this the False God and if so answer with Ja.

Let's break it down. What you are saying is "If and only if the False god is on the right, then 'ja' means 'yes.'"

If you're addressing Truth Logic God, the "if and only if" means BOTH parts of the statement must be true. So if it's Random Logic God on the right, but ja means 'yes'" you will get whatever "no" is in the Logic God-Language. If the deity on the right is False Logic God, but ja means "no", you will still get a "no" in the Logic God Language.

The Logic Gods are evaluating Logic and ONLY the Logic. So, Truth will answer "yes" if both parts of the statement are wrong: ("if and only if, the False god is on the right then 'ja' means yes" -- if Random is on the right and "ja" means yes, then Truth will answer "da" (in other words, he'll say "yes"))

If you're addressing Random, he ignores your question and just gives out a "ja" or "ya" as he feels like it.

If you're addressing False,remember that the "if and only if" means BOTH parts of the statement must be true. So if it's Random on the right, but ja means 'yes'" you will get "yes" is in the God-Language. If the deity on the right is False, but ja means "no", you will still get a "yes" in the God Language.

I probably should have presented them as robots rather than gods, but the idea of gods is that they're omnipotent and omniscient and omnipresent and presumably will know anything you care to ask in any language you care to use (including one you make up on the spot.)

Originally posted by john_bmth
Big clue: everyone in this thread has asked simplistic "Are you X?" and "Is X Y?" questions. This is not going to be the solution. AthlonSavage seems to be moving in the right direction with his/her multi conditional questions.

edit on 4-1-2013 by john_bmth because: (no reason given)

Exactly!

This is, however, a general tendency -- to look for very simple answers when confronted by complex problems. A well-rounded education in the early 1900's (under a system of education that in today's terms would seem like a slave labor camp with daily indoctrination) included learning formal logic like this -- a tool that allows you to examine very hard problems.

Very hard problems are not solved by simple answers (and in general, a simple answer will make them worse.)

BUT... I'm glad to see my little thread has interested and amused people and led them to think about what they might say. I should throw a couple others out sometime.

reply to post by Byrd

Let's break it down. What you are saying is "If and only if the False god is on the right, then 'ja' means 'yes.'"

i made as assumption that the Random God may not know the difference between the Truth and the False God because, Random answers of Da or Ja dont require knowing the difference they are random answers. The logic i was using hinges on this assumption. The if and only if logic wont work if the assumption is incorrect. If the real Truth God is precisely known then the if and only type logic certainly can be used to identify who the other Gods are, and if Da means Yes or No. In fact once the truth God is know it takes only one question to him to solve the problem.

Ask the first two if they are a woman; if that doesn't cancel two out, ask if the last one is a man. We did create god in own own image didn't we?

Great thread!

When I get home later, I will try to post my solution, as these are my favourite kind of logic puzzles =)

I have one question about this:

Can I, for example, refer to the second or third God I will ask a question in my first question? E.g. "Is the third God I will ask a question a liar?" I.e., is the order of asking the Gods known upfront, also by the Gods?

The three gods have no identities assinged to them in the definition of the problem so whatever alogorythm is used to solve the problem would depend on which gods was asked first. Therefore the identity of each god is assigned by the interviewer.