Is This Better?

I personally wonder if there is any merit in this thread any more. Does this need to continue?

Im my humble opinion, no.

I wouldn't mind hearing from the author. What do you think Twitchy?

I agree that there are very large giant elitists in want for mo monies... could you please explain your post in more detail? I really want to know who is doing this exactly. It is hard to understand the hypotheticals...and the supposeds

I see where you are sort of getting at but I would really like to know more about WHO has begun this 'trend'. Its ridiculous to think of, at the same time it all par for the TIMES.

Power to the Peaceful
Power to the Mystic

Long live Love!

xox

Originally posted by intrepid
I personally wonder if there is any merit in this thread any more. Does this need to continue?

if the interest is there, then let it be shared.

((((peace))))

I value what I feed into my mouth and what I am paying for to do so.

Love to the Peaceful yea....

[edit on 2-11-2004 by dolphius]

I've already put in my 68�

Consider it done.

I had noticed these symbols, but had never given them a second thought until I was educated by someone who obviously DID bother to research what they were there for. I decided to do my own research as well.

And I don't see anything wrong with paying a few cents more for Kosher foods that may prevent me or my loved ones from developing cancer or preventing the consumption of *things* that pass the inspection of the FDA. Why just yesterday my husband and I attended a lecture given on cancer by a well respected doctor who happens to be Freemason and a wonderful person who is a friend of ours.

What I'd like to see are some statistics that show the percentages of Jewish people who develop cancer and other diseases possibly associated with food consumption. *any ideas where I might look?*

www.kosher.org...

Typical of laws set in the Kosher Code are regulations prohibiting insects in leafy vegetables, combinations of fish and meat harmful to health, rules and regulations, for purity in processing of foods, and the highest temperatures in cleansing of utensils and kettles, thereby totally eliminating transmission of food particles from product to another; even lubricating oils and packaging coating may not contain contaminating substances.

In modern times, the Kosher Code has become universally acknowledged. Even in the USA, where excellent government standards regulate production of foods and related products, they are exceeded by the exacting stringencies of the Kosher standard.

There is a legitimate thread going on here which 2 or 3 people are trying to civily discuss and where constantly being interupted by a bunch of guys who seem to think we are secretly concocting some big anti-Semite/Freemason plot.
This conversation is about religious levies and in particular the Kosher tax - it is not some vehicle of propaganda and to be blunt it has nothing to do with Freemasonry - we are legitimatally exchanging our own personal experiences and thoughts on a subject.
We have got someone posting completely irrelevant material, calling me a Jew-hater and otherwise slandering in the thread and I get a warning.

Point blank to the MOD - This is not an anti-Semite thread, the only people who are trying to turn it into one aren't even reading the material posted, most of which comes from official Jewish sources NOT anti-semite sites as has been claimed by people who aren't reading the actual material.

Who the f*ck cares whether a bunch of people who aren't even participating in the discussion think it should continue or not.

LTD - please remove the Holocaust stuff you have posted, why you haven't been reprimanded by the moderators for this is beyond me.

If you want to start a "The Nazis were bad people" thread then go somewhere else - we all know this, its nothing to do with the subject in question.
Just because you can see the word Jew doesn't mean you have to start pumping out you automated responses.

Originally Posted by MrNecros
Just because you can see the word Jew doesn't mean you have to start pumping out you automated responses.

Just for clarity, what is a "World Jew", and how does that phrase not PROVE what I have been writing about this whole thread?

Again, just for the slow, if you do not want to purchase Kosher certified food products... now follow me here... DON'T.

As for the racist and antisemitic BS that comprises the very foundation of this thread, well, you deal with it... I guess you just don't like having it pointed out...

NO ONE, but the person that started this thread, intimidated that Freemasonry was associated with Jews... NO ONE. Which only serves to PROVE my original contention that this thread is racist and anti jew...

YOu might actually like to READ my posts before going off on a tear, there, old son...

Twitchy, you have yet to respond substantively to my replies, and instead have chosen to attach masonry, Jews, and slyly refer to posts I have made elsewhere that have nothing to do with this issue, not even tangentially.

And attempting to defame me by misquoting my friends is very poor style, and intellectually dishonest... but then, so has this whole thread, since the clear objective is to defame Jews...

How very sad...

Theron - you really should see a therapist, first your seeing secret posts from Rosecrusians and Aliens now your seeing invisible messages from the "World Jew" - please try to learn to read English.

Thanks, necros... and since you are clearly not reading the same thread as everyone else, perhaps you should adjust your tinfoil hat better to avoid those death rays...

Hearing voices in your head lately?

Focus, old son, focus....

Theorn and ltd have continually bombarded this thread with accusations of racism, which is trasparently and patently ridiculous. I am not now, nor have I ever been anti-jewish, nor anti-any religon. Why does it seem to matter what religous institution is behind it? If it were the Catholic Communion Fees, or the Baptist Food Tax, or if it were the Native American Peyote Chewers fee, it would still be a multi-billion dollar government subsidized scam. I post proof positive that this practice is not only indeed unconstitutional, as indicated by the court cases I have referenced and cited, but costs mostly unwitting consumers billions of dollars to which I have provided a wealth of information and statistics. I have stated my position, provided a wealth of data to support it from various sources including Kosher sites themselves while Theorn/LTD only post libelous accusations of racism to which end I have repeatedly requested that theorn/ltd either argue the facts or simply find a less offensive thread, and they have failed to do so. In their subsequent rebuttals, I have yet to see them address the issue with anything but an attempt to shut the thread down. I would even go so far as to suggest that not only are ltd and theorn of a demonstrable pro-jewish bias, but I can say with some confidence that there is a vested masonic interest in having this thread reduced to a racial arguement to keep it from being debated in legitimacy. Unfortunately, it is a tactic that is all too often employed in this matter and the reality of the Jewish Kosher Fees seldom gets brought into the light of day to be discussed or even addressed. Their position, or really lack there of, has now gone from "No it isn't, you're a racist" to "It's not that big of a deal, you're a racist" to finally yeah so what it is, you're a racist." to which I can only reply, No I'm not a racist, I'm a consumer, an American consumer who does his homework and doesn't like any religon that charges the other 97% of the population fees to suit their religous standards. Standards which are applied to foods, yet cost the american steel industry for instance $700,000 in kosher related fees which have absolutely nothing to do with keeping any jewish traditions. The only legitimate counter theorn has to offer here is that you can just not buy the products labeled kosher, but as I have shown, 3/4 of prepackaged foods have paid various multi level annual fees to a religous establishment. He also states that is a free market and that there is a demand, however since when does that cost the food companies billions of dollars. Your trying to tell me that 3% of the population of this country, 3% of this country ,most of which don't even keep kosher tradition, create enough demand for a service that 3/4 of all our prepackaged foods must levy fees to the jewish community? Hogwash. This antisemitism rubbish is the same rubbish that gets these rabbi's into your grocery bills, and apparently is the same argument they use to keep a lid on the practice. People have the right to know what the symbols on their food packages mean, and they have the right to know what is costing them billions of dollars because of those symbols, and most importantly, people have the right to know when the 1st ammendment is getting tossed aside for 'profit making concerns'. If this thread gets shut down it will be beacuse two(?) freemaons got on this thread and reduced a legitimate discussion into a farce. Why would freemasonry have an interest in this? That's a good question and something I will be addressing in my next post.


edit type-o

[edit on 3-11-2004 by twitchy]

Originally posted by intrepid
I wouldn't mind hearing from the author. What do you think Twitchy?

I think alot of rabbi's, including some I have quoted in my prior are also calling it a racket. I do not want to argue with theorn/ltd, I want to debate and or discuss this issue without watching my thread get pirated and hijacked. There is a huge cover up regarding this practice, as I have shown in my previous posts, advertisment companies have literally painted these symbols out of advertisments, and some members of the mainstream media have received death threats for calling this issue out. What you are seeing here from theorn/ltd is a vested masonic interest in keeping this issue quiet.

Here's a few reason I think this thread should not be hijacked and turned into a racist issue...

Originally posted by dolphius
I agree that there are very large giant elitists in want for mo monies... could you please explain your post in more detail? I really want to know who is doing this exactly.

Originally posted by dolphius
if the interest is there, then let it be shared.
I value what I feed into my mouth and what I am paying for to do so.

Originally posted by magestica
I had noticed these symbols, but had never given them a second thought

Originally posted by MrNECROS
There is a legitimate thread going on here which 2 or 3 people are trying to civily discuss...This conversation is about religious levies and in particular the Kosher tax - it is not some vehicle of propaganda...we are legitimatally exchanging our own personal experiences and thoughts on a subject.

Originally posted by Gazrok
I will agree however, that government has no business in the regulation of this, other than to protect the companies...

Originally posted by DYepes
I told my Department manager and he says he was never told aobut this in his 15 years of working in grocery.

Originally posted by infinite8
The other products you mention, I will have to agree on. It is ridiculous to force checks on these products.

Originally posted by MKULTRA
Taken from your link, care to explain your views on this issue?

Here is the only arguement really presented by theorn/ltd who have well, alot more similarities than just view points... They are claiming I am attacking them, yet...

Originally posted by freemasonry
The consumer knowing or not knowing is ephemeral
90% of this Kosher-tax argument comes from anti-semitic websites. (no they don't)
I''m sensing an ENORMOUS disrespect for Jewish tradition. "Money" is beside the point
the POINT is to denigrate Jews
The bizarre claim by right wing extremists...(plaugerized violation of TOS)
you're coming off looking like an anti-semite.
your argument is spurrious, and is plainly antisemetic
the whole argument is about antisemitism
insulting our Jewsih friends
coming off as an anti-semite
transparent antisemitism
BARELY concealed anti jewish rhetoric
it IS about antisemitism
your real agenda is jewish hate
neonazi anti jew rhetoric
For myself, I was never discussing this to begin with.
being racist and inflamatory
its about attacking Jews
you agenda was hatred toward jews...For myself, I don't care what you think...
your race baiting
You started off by attacking me (yeah right)
assidulously
but hey, its your rant
your agenda is patently anti jewish...
you are anti jewish
Twitchy is trying ot MAKE is a jewish issue (LOL...huh?!)
racist and inflamatory
Look how he personally attacks me with nonsense, rather than focusing on the issue (huh?!?!)
he is a racist
Know what? I DO have a Jewish bias. I really do. I shouldn't have contributed to this thread because of it. I'm not the most objective person when it comes to Jews. I gladly help their causes whenever I can.
Your argument is patently a racist one
hatred for the Jewish faith
your agenda is clearly to attack Judaism, and that this whole "Jewish Tax" nonsense is just a smokescreen for you to do this
clearly anti jewish
your argument IS a racist one
Your argument that it is a "Jewish Tax" is a racist one
Your argument that the money is being funneled into "Jewish Organizations" is a racist one
Your attack on me as being "pro jewish" is a racist one
Your argument that Masonry is a "pro jewish" fraternity is a racist one.
Your argument that Masonry is a part of some "Jewish Conspiracy" is a racist one.
racist and antisemitic BS that comprises the very foundation of this thread
the clear objective is to defame Jews

See a pattern here? Theorn/ltd whichever is signed in, if you guys find this thread so offensive, stay off of it. We are having a discussion here. Simple enough.
I am going to ignore you because all you are doing is trying to close this thread down.
Spin it all you like, it's still a square.

edit: fixed quotes

[edit on 3-11-2004 by twitchy]

And in all this ranting, you have YET to address my point about your power as a consumer to simply not purchase anything certified as Kosher...

Or to address why you felt it justified to attack my positions by misquoting me and my friends...

I certainly feel that this is nothing more than an anti jewish rant, and your lack of response to my salient point and simple solution is more telling then almost anythig else you have written.

Originally posted by theron dunn/ltd
And in all this ranting, you have YET to address my point about your power as a consumer to simply not purchase anything certified as Kosher...

Ah but I have addressed this, over and over and over again...

Originally posted by twitchy
The only legitimate counter theorn has to offer here is that you can just not buy the products labeled kosher, but as I have shown, 3/4 of prepackaged foods have paid various multi level annual fees to a religous establishment. He also states that is a free market and that there is a demand, however since when does that cost the food companies billions of dollars. Your trying to tell me that 3% of the population of this country, 3% of this country ,most of which don't even keep kosher tradition, create enough demand for a service that 3/4 of all our prepackaged foods must levy fees to the jewish community? Hogwash.

Originally posted by theron dunn/ltd
Or to address why you felt it justified to attack my positions by misquoting me and my friends...

First you claim that I misquote, then you claim that I quote out of context, which is it?
Here allow me to quote you 'out of context' again...

I will pray to GOD that antimasonic elements NEVER rise to power, and praise God that the United States has a constitution that PREVENTS them doing anything more than talking...
-theorn dunn
NO ONE has the RIGHT to be HEARD.
-theorn dunn

Perhaps it is best to respond to the rest of your rebuttal thusly,

People who attribute all opposition to this agenda as anti Semitism are morally unctuous, self-deluded, and passive aggressive. By dehumanizing their opponents as hate mongers, they actually provoke the intense hatreds that lead to mayhem."
-Henry Makow

Theorn, this isn't the Dreyfus Affair, and this isn't the Communist Revolution, or nazi germany, this is America. Most folks here don't like secrets, we don't like being lied to, and we don't like being made out to be something we aren't. I don't like my 'nickels and dimes' going to buy bullets for Israeli guns to be fired into Pallestinian Schools. People need to know where their money is going, and people need to know that freemasonry isn't all charities and ma ha bologna. You have nothing to offer this discussion, which is truly a shame given your credentials and knowlege in this area.
And on that note, welcome to my ignore list.

Now for the others on this board who aren't blue lodge defenders of masonic causes, let's examine why the masonic elements would be so eager to defend this practice of clandestine taxation...
The Jewish Tribune
October 28, 1927
"Masonry is based on Judaism. Eliminate the teachings of Judaism from the Masonic Ritual and what is left?"
"Freemasonry is a Jewish establishment, whose history, grades, official appointments, passwords, and explanations are Jewish from beginning to end."
-Rabbi Isaac Wise

www.texemarrs.com...
The idolatrous image of the double-headed eagle�shown here on the cover of Albert Pike's classic text, Morals and Dogma�is a much-treasured symbol of Jewish Masons. It represents the Babylonian god of money and forces, Mammon-Ra, as well as the Hegelian dialectical process practiced by the Jewish elite. This same symbol is the "Masonic Jewel" awarded high-level Masons initiated into the 33rd degree.

srjarchives.tripod.com...
The U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum promotes collection of and research in a variety of Masonic-related materials.

www.scripturesforamerica.org...
One of the worst features of the present day Lodge is the tyranny of the moneyed interests which control its top echelons. These men, working hand-in-glove with the International Jewish Bankers, dominate high finance and exercise control over the credit of the nation in every phase of our national life. The number of these elite, who control the nation from behind the secrecy of the Lodge, is small indeed, but extremely powerful due to the "power of the purse." For it has long been known that he who controls the economics of a country, controls its politics. That is what Amsel Rothschild, many years ago, was able to say with truth: "Give me control of the economics of a country; and I care not who makes her laws."
Because of this evil trend, we have not had an American government in Washington in over fifty years, no matter whether Republicans or Democrats have been in power. The real power behind the throne has been the Internationalists, who adhere to the principles of Judaism and Freemasonry.

www.bessel.org...
There have been at least 51 Jewish American Grand Masters

Interesting to note is the masonic/catholic conflicts.

www.catholicism.org...
'The Masons' supreme, ultimate objective, so they mysteriously declare, is to rebuild the Temple of Jerusalem. This is of course, an objective which the Jews share. And though it may sound innocent, it is, in its implications, terrifying. The Temple of Jerusalem is the traditional center of Jewish worship, which was destroyed in 70 A. D. by the Romans, in fulfillment of Our Lord's prophecy that "there shall not be left a stone upon a stone."

A very interesting book that covers this subject in detail is The Hidden Power Behind Freemasonry
By Lt. Col. Gordon "Jack" Mohr

Well, all of that is very interesting but what does it have to do with Kosher Foods? Well, one word, Billions, that in the US alone. It is important to ask the question, where does all that money go as there just aren't that many billionaire Rabbi's in the world. Well that's a damn good question. A question that a another one word can answer, Illuminati.
As we all know the Illuminati was founded in 1776, by Adam Weishaupt, a Jewish Professor of Canon Law.
Consider this quote...
"It is not my intention to doubt that the doctrine of the Illuminati and the principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the contrary, no one is more satisfied of this fact than I am...."
-George Washington

Originally posted by twitchy
Ah but I have addressed this, over and over and over again...*SNIP*

Yes, you have twitchy, and the foundation of your argument is clear as well, we all get it.

I tried to insert a little real life consumerism, and with it a little levity, you failed to demonstrate an anecdotal rebuttal to what is painfully clear: You can spend as much or as little on an item as you like (if it�s not kosher), you can only spend a lot on kosher items (there are no bargain kosher brands, heck there�s just not a lot of brands/items). Seems as though capitalism and consumerism trump your argument, and with that stripped away the remainder of your argument becomes little more than some deep seated and misguided perception fueled by fringe element (you used Texe Marrs to support your argument ). I�m done, I put my 68� earlier, I now withdraw that and am going whole hog (which is hard to do if your kosher) and springing for the $3.64 Hebrew Nationals.

originally Posted by twitchy
Theorn, this isn't the Dreyfus Affair, and this isn't the Communist Revolution, or nazi germany, this is America. Most folks here don't like secrets, we don't like being lied to, and we don't like being made out to be something we aren't.

Well, you should take that to heart. You quoted me above exactly, for a change. I like that. I feel exactly thus. You, and everyone, have a right to speak, but NOT to be heard. So what? That is inherent in the constitution of this country. No one is trying to stop you from speaking, but you have a lot of gall complaining because when YOU speak, someone else exercising THEIR right to free speech is somehow and infringement of yours?

that is just too funny.

I don't like my 'nickels and dimes' going to buy bullets for Israeli guns to be fired into Pallestinian Schools.

And here, my friends, is EXACT proof of what I am others have noted regarding Twitchy being a racist. How, exactly, is this connection made? Kosher food certification to guns and bullets being fired into Palestinian Schools?

Why, by fiat and blank assertion... are we simply to accept this thesis, based on a FOOD CERTIFICATION? My GOD! Does the arrogance of bigots know no boundaries of intellectual or human decency?

People need to know where their money is going, and people need to know that freemasonry isn't all charities.

Of course, i would like to see any proof of that as well...

What you have offered us is green balogna when we are seeking the Prime Rib of intellectual truth. You offer us ignorance, racism, bigotry and half truths, veiled in the allegory of fact, when nothing you have pointed out has been satisfactorily demonstrated.

You baldly claim,using false mathematics, that .015% of the GDP of Canada is expended in a "Jewish tax' that does not exist, for products you can avoid purchasing, for a certification of Kosher that means something to a religiously observant minority, offered VOLUNTARILY by food and produt consumers.

Then, to go on, you baldly claim that I am my friends are somehow connected to some kind of world conspriacy, without offering any kind of proof except your word, and links to quotes and threads that have NOTHING to do with the subject at hand.

THEN you quote me, holding forth on the right to free speech and the freedom of association, as if, somehow, UPHOLDING FREEDOM IS WRONG! Are you serious, and do you expect to be taken seriously???

Not only did I write:

I will pray to GOD that antimasonic elements NEVER rise to power, and praise God that the United States has a constitution that PREVENTS them doing anything more than talking...

-theron dunn

and if you are going to quote me, at least have the courtesy to quote me completely... you know, its the HONEST thing to do...

What I wrote on Surfsteve, was:

Posted - Sep 18 2003 : 12:00:34 PM

I disagree. Everyone has a right to free speech. That much we can agree on. No one has the right to be heard on someone else's dime. I think we can agree on that as well. So, if FW herself came to you and asked you to host her site, for free or for money, and you did so, YOU would be at least partially responsible for the speech, by condoning it by hosting it.

and on the Ministry of Masons board on (9/28/03 20:55)

I raise this point because, as I recall, the American Nazi party wanted to MARCH through Skokie, a community of predominantly JEWISH citizens, many survivors of the holocaust, and OUR courts ruled that they COULD as a free expression of speech under the constitution. Freedom is freedom.

I have said this before, and will say it again: Every person has the right to free speech, ON BOTH SIDES, and I will defend to the death your right to say what I would with my last breath defend, BUT I WILL NOT PAY A NICKEL TO HELP YOU, NOR FORCE SOMEONE TO HEAR YOUR WORDS.

NO ONE has the RIGHT to be HEARD.

I am PROUD of that. Freedom is what the United States was founded upon, not the misogynist, anti jew, anti American, anti Mason rhetoric of Henry Makow... how honest can you claim to be when you lie by only partially quoting my words. I wrote that in DEFENSE of freespeech...

That, my friend, is the type of lie you tell... a smidgeon of truth mixed with a kettle of lies...

But you keep right on posting about jewish conspiracies, jewish taxes, secret jewish organizations, shooting bullets into palestinain (by the way, WHAT is a palestinian? Fifty years ago, they were Egyptian and Jordanian... today they are Palestinians? Ha...) schools... lets not talk about suicide bombers and public places and thounds dead... no, you continue your thinly veiled racist attacks.

You have nothing to offer this discussion, which is truly a shame given your credentials and knowlege in this area. And on that note, welcome to my ignore list.

That is fine with me, but just know, despite being on your "ignore list" (imagine my hurt feelings, that a racist would ignore me....) I will continue to reply and post on this subject...


[edit on 11/4/04 by theron dunn]

Well thankyou for the informative POst, I have enjoyed learning about this "hidden religious tax". Please continue your investigation - I also look forward to hearing from that other guy who said he was going to do the research.

I have made an effort to read both sides of this "debate", but there is only really one side and frankly I feel weary after having to wade through all that masonic thread hijacking BS to get the facts. And that is what it is - facts.

And as for the mod wanting to close this thread DON'T YOU DARE!!! I find it straange that he even suggested it - also smells a little mason to me as well

Anyway thanks for the great thread - I will now be checking the stuff in my cupboard for this Jew Tax and I will also be telling everyone I know about it as well

As the old saying goes . . . .

"Scratch an Anti-Mason . . . and you'll find an Anti-Semite"

I certainly hope that doesn't apply to you, webvida.

This thread has caused far more harm than good, and it should have been allowed to die.

In any case, carry on. I'm not sure what else can be said about this topic, though, that hasn't already been said.